Has anyone used water injection to replace intercooler?

[Richard L]

Like to know if anyone has actually done this and if so, what is the effect of 'before' and 'after'?

[DMan]

Like to know if anyone has actually done this and if so, what is the effect of 'before' and 'after'?

Hi Richard,

Denis Kefallinos here from Boston, MA. How are you doing?

There are a few Grand National users of the 84-85 non-intercooled vintage (other wise known as 'hot air' cars) that are using water/alcohol injection. I seem to recall they had good results but you'd have to research it. Head over to turbobuick.com and do a search in the alky forum for 'Hot Air'.

[Richard L]

Hello Denis,

Great to hear from you again. I didn't realise that the early Buick GN doesn't use intercooler.

It has been sometimes since we last spoke, remind me if you have an intercooler on board and also if you have managed to progressibely increase water flow with increase load on your set-up

Richard L

[pbonsalb]

I recall reading years and years ago that the Chrysler engineers who designed the Dodge/Plymouth 2.2 Turbos used water injection before they used intercoolers when they started looking for more power. They preferred water injection due to the tighter turbo plumbing, but ultimately decided against it because they did not believe the average driver would remember to fill the bottle.

That was back in the early days of mass production automotive turbocharging (save a few much earlier examples). Knowledge and improvements today might lead to a different conclusion; i.e., air to water intercooling would reduce packaging while providing a more direct path.

However the heat is taken out, the result is pretty much the same -- more power. You just want it done in a reasonably simple, inexpensive, and reliable way.

Philip Bradley

[MapMaker50]

I have noticed that more and more manfacturers are adopting the use of intercooler sprays, it is only a small step away from implementing internal water injection.

I would like to know if anyone has some experience of the effectiveness of such device (external) and noticed any surge of power when the spray is switched on abruptly during acceleration.

[AKWRX]

Just finished up an alcohol/water injection system on a 1.6L Honda with a Jackson Racing super charger system. The injection system is in lieu of an intercooler. There should be a 90 to 100 degree F cooling effect, the same as an efficient intercooler would be capable of producing. Many supercharged Fords, Dodges, and Chevys use a water/alcohol injection system instead of an intercooler with great sucess.

[Richard L]

I would be very interested on your non-interrcooler set on your honda, please psot some figures when you have some.

Just a few weeks ago when I was doing some new product testing work in a WRX on a dyno. We used to jets, a 0.4mm before the IC and a 1.0mm after. Water rate is totally variable at will. It was a 23C degree day and the session lasted about 6-7 hours.

A big fan was used in front of the car (not that effective) for TMIC cooling. Throughout the day, we always put our hands on the intercooler to feel the core temperature was ensure that it is not too excessive before the next pull. Surprisingly the core was always "cold" to touch - not warm. It only warms up slightly during the power run. We didn't record the temperaure as it really wasn't the aim of our test on that day.

After few hours or so we got curious and pull the 0.4mm jet out, plugged up the jet hole and measured the actual water flow into a measuring jug for a two-minute power pull and got the 140cc of water - 70cc/min!!!

When turned around, we saw large amount of vapour coming up of the intercooler core and the core was red hot - guessed we forgot to put the bonnet down during that pull. In moment of panic, we manually activated the WI and doused the intercooler with a water jet - vapours, steam was pouring out continuously. Only after 10 minutes for so later, the core was just cool enough to touch.

This little event had me thinking just how effective is a front intercooler sprayer will be with the aid of air flow whilst moving. I would love to hear from anyone who have used it especially measured it.

As a supplier for water injection, we have often been asked by for customers when are we bring out an external intercooler spraying system? I am not sure if this will ever happen. anyone out there can help?

[pbonsalb]

I like the Autospeed Intelligent Intercooler Water Sprayer. It uses two temp probes and a mini computer to allow you to adjust based on differential. I bought one, but have not fully installed it so I cannot provide any complete experience. There are a series of five or six articles on this kit at the Autospeed website that are worth reading. There are also a couple of unrelated articles on water spray in general that conclude it does not help during a dyno run or drag run, but that it will help get the IC back to normal temp in prep for its next run. On the dyno or dragstrip, the IC needs some heatsoak ability (which older Spearco IC have, but newer lightweight tube and fin design IC lack) and airflow. C02 or nitrous will help on the dragstrip or dyno.

Philip Bradley

[AKWRX]

I would be very interested on your non-interrcooler set on your honda, please post some figures when you have some.
The Honda is on the road, but the tuning process with the Hondata engine management is not under way yet. The Hondata system has a dedicated temperature probe in the intake manifold, so post supercharger intake temp output will be one of the routine data logging entries. The temp probe is about two inches upstream between the dual alcohol injection nozzles. There should be enough mixing within the relatively small intake manifold to get valid temp readings though. A complete write-up of the install with pictures will be posted on a local host web site before too long (hopefully, within 30 days, or so) . Eventually, more complete tuning data will be added, including info from the temp probe in the intake manifold along with other related stuff from the data logs. This is the first alcohol injection install on a street driven Jackson Racing supercharged Honda.

[wrx+]

MapMaker50.......... I use a home made intercooler water spray when I take the car to the drag strip and on hot days, it really does make a difference about .80 sec. in the 1/4, and on hot days at a stop light its instant power instead of lull while the hot air cycles. You can try it for your self very cheaply for about $50 US or about 35 pounds. You need a 12 volt RV water pump like is used for a shower(or even cheaper is a universal windsheild washer pump-BUT you can only use that for about 3 seconds), some hose (rubber fuel line works great), a manual on/off switch, at least two nozzles ( I used misting nozzles from a garden supply shop), and a container. (my first container was a little plastic bottle to test the system). Thats all it takes, I use it on a stage 3 wrx with a top mount intercooler(APS).

[MapMaker50]

WRX....

Thank you for your reply, I am now convienced that front interccoler spray does work.

0.8 second is a big increase in power in terms of 1/4 mile time. I expect it was a very hot day and you must have used quite a bit of water to have such good results.

The Autopspeed system seemed to be a good add-on for racing applictaions.

[Richard L]

AKWRX...

It will be very interesting when you have recorded some data from the temperature probe. I look forward to seeing it especially when you switch the WAI off.

I suspect you use alcohol instead of water form two reasons? cooling and fuel supplement?

The position of the temperature may not be as ideal due to the closeness of the un-eveporated liqiud, it may read closer to the ambient temperature of the liquid rather the combined temperature of the part-evaporated liquid and air coming out of the supercharger.

When you conduct further tests later with the probe nearer to the intake manifold, it will also have interest results compared to the previous position. I wonder if you couls post a picture of the engine bay so we can see the where everything is located.

We have supplied jackson/WI to many Jackson/Miata S/C kits and we rarely get any feedback.

[bigblockcrx]

WRX....

Thank you for your reply, I am now convienced that front interccoler spray does work.

0.8 second is a big increase in power in terms of 1/4 mile time. I expect it was a very hot day and you must have used quite a bit of water to have such good results.

The Autopspeed system seemed to be a good add-on for racing applictaions.

[AKWRX]

AKWRX...
I suspect you use alcohol instead of water form two reasons? cooling and fuel supplement?

The position of the temperature may not be as ideal due to the closeness of the un-evaporated liqiud, it may read closer to the ambient temperature of the liquid rather the combined temperature of the part-evaporated liquid and air coming out of the supercharger.

When you conduct further tests later with the probe nearer to the intake manifold, it will also have interest results compared to the previous position. I wonder if you could post a picture of the engine bay so we can see the where everything is located.
Correct, the use of alcohol injection (actually about 85% methanol/15% water) instead of an IC, is only a part of the purpose. 92 octane pump gas will be used, so the alcohol, depending on how much is injected, should also raise the knock threshold to the equivalent of at least 100-104 octane. That is based on past experience with alcohol injection on a WRX. And, it will allow a much more agressive tune, with more boost, ignition advance, and leaner A/F. With a very agressive tune (up to 23psi boost, and 30+ degrees advance), the WRX has consistantly shown 60-90F cooler EGT at WOT. All these additional pluses should be reasonable expectations with the Honda JRSC, too.

The JRSC has a single port for WI in the intake manifold (very near the temp probe position). This install has that supplied port closed off, and two injection nozzles (HAGO #3s) positioned to be equi-distant between the #1-2 and #3-4 intake runners. There are lots of pictures, but not sorted out yet. Have had some siphoning issues because the tank is mounted above the nozzles. Waiting for a solenoid controlled shutoff valve (similar to a NOS purge valve) to arrive to be installed on the output line and wired to open only when the injection pump is on. There are other optional locations for a temp probe that can be explored if the present location doesn't seem to give representative temp info. All the Hondata programming features are not activated as yet, either. We'll see how things progress in the next few days...

[Richard L]

A few weeks ago I have received a few pictures from a 9.5L 1300whp twin-turbo Trans Am owner, he has actually replaced his intercooler with water injection. He has gained a few degrees of advance, 2 psi and good reduction of inlet air and egt.

The car can now be use on the street anytime, anywhere and any months of the year without over-heating. He has retained the same power ( not full tuned yet) up to now with water injection - due to lack of time before attending the last drag meeting of the year (tthree weeks ago )- he won on street tyres at low 9s.

Here are the pictures he sent me: before, after and during - he used no less than five jets !!!

Before:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/images/before.jpg
After:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/images/after.jpg
During:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/images/drag.jpg

[Sato]

WRX....

Thank you for your reply, I am now convienced that front interccoler spray does work.

0.8 second is a big increase in power in terms of 1/4 mile time. I expect it was a very hot day and you must have used quite a bit of water to have such good results.

The Autopspeed system seemed to be a good add-on for racing applictaions.

Hello,
While I'm sure spraying the intercooler does work I have tried something different. At the advice of Mr. Spear of Spearco I added fans to my intercooler. The reason? I didn't want to cut up my Dodge Omni Glhs to put in a bigger IC. I use 2 SPAL fans on the intercooler + Aquamist injection [1mm jet] with their base system with 1/3 methanol + 2/3 distilled water sprayed after the intercooler. At the dyno the IC only gets alittle warm . Others with a simular setup as mine with no fans you could fry an egg on them!!
Just a thought,
Sato

[bluto2000gs]

Hi I am new to this forum.
There are guys with the 3.8L engines powered by an Eaton Super Charger using water kits to avoid the hefty $1200 USD cost for a liquid to air intercooler. The intercooler mounts between the intake manifold and the blower.

But now guys are starting to spray Alky/water before the throttle body. This is working. There are guys reducing pulley size and elliminating KR.
There is controversy. Many claim it ruins the teflon coating on the rotors in the S/C. Other say the coating comes off anyway.

Some think the manufacturers of the intercoolers say that alky is bad so they don't loose IC sales.

I just ordered an alky kit and plan to run a smaller pulley with no KR.
I hope it works.

[keithmac]

I`ll be using WI instead of an Intercooler, at the moment I`ve got the charger in but can`t hit WOT at high revs due to knock, will see what happens after the water injection is installed, AFR seems to be ok at around 13:1.

[M45]

Cool thread!

I have chosen water injection over an intercooler on my miata/mx5. I have the jackson racing SC on a mk2 1999 1.6 (yup we got one in the uk)
Ive just had it dyno'd for a 'before and after WI' comparison.

I got 170.2 bhp and 135lb/ft torque @ 7psi with no intercooler. AFR 10.5! Dumping like mad! (flywheel HP)

I'm having it dyno'd again soon but need to fine tune the water injection. I didnt go in through the port in the JRSC throttle body as the thread was too deep for the AM nozzle - would have affected the spray pattern. I went in a couple of inches to the right of this spot. Nice and flush!


I'll get some graphs on here if anyone is still interested? It feels like its making no more power on just water. I'm going to lean up to about 11.5 and see how far I can knock back the JR BTC then maybe even buy the CAS bracket and advance a bit. I'm at 10 BTDC now would like to take it up to 14 BTDC or maybe even higher. Need to find more info on Methanol / additives.

Great Forum!!


Ben

[Dan]

A few weeks ago I have received a few pictures from a 9.5L 1300whp twin-turbo Trans Am owner, he has actually replaced his intercooler with water injection. He has gained a few degrees of advance, 2 psi and good reduction of inlet air and egt.

The car can now be use on the street anytime, anywhere and any months of the year without over-heating. He has retained the same power ( not full tuned yet) up to now with water injection - due to lack of time before attending the last drag meeting of the year (tthree weeks ago )- he won on street tyres at low 9s.

Here are the pictures he sent me: before, after and during - he used no less than five jets !!!

Before:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/images/before.jpg
After:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/images/after.jpg
During:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/images/drag.jpg

Wow that is pretty impressive.

[rarson]

I know this thread is old, but I thought I'd add some results for intercooler spraying. Unfortunately, mine aren't as scientific or conclusive as others'.

When my '97 Eclipse GSX was still relatively stock, I re-routed one of the windshield washer nozzles to the front bumper, in front of the area where the side-mount intercooler sat (I removed the other nozzle, they didn't do me any good and left watermarks on my hood). I rewired the washer pump to a switch so that I could flick it on after I started a run. I was running stock everything except for a boost controller, intercooler piping, BOV, and an Injen intake.

With this setup I was able to achieve a 13.7 @ 96 mph with a 1.8 60-ft, at 15 psi. Before the sprayer I was rather stuck at low 14's, which is what people typically run with a setup that close to stock. The biggest problem with the side-mount was that it heat soaked very easily, and the spray really helped that. Other people had done tests with various fan setups but found them to be ineffective once the IC was heat-soaked.

So, while it's not really quantifying the benefit much, there was a good gain from spraying (I just used water) and for my setup it was really convenient and simple to setup. Personally, I'm going to switch to water injection only for my car, but for those with intercoolers, spraying can help.

[GregLeBon]

Hi.
Im new here, too.....

Im not quite in the big-league, as some of you here seem to be: I have a MK1 Mr2 with an AE101 Levin S/C engine conversion (170hp) which I am running with no IC and WI.

My case is slightly different from most of yours as I have a mid-engine arrangement, so a front mounted IC is out of the question...
Our (small) IC's are mounted on top of the engine, so virtually anything will improve things greatly!

I chose to use a WI system and ditch the IC, and the difference is amazing!
Ive had it like this for a year now: Im only using water ATM, as I have an alloy tankl (and methanol and ALU dont like one another..!).
In getting approx 35 degrees C temp drop instantly: ive set it to come on at 70 degrees, but I have a digital controller and have yet to really tune it up.
Im fitting a W2A setup this summer, but I had a custom pipe made up to replace the IC (and mount the WI, temp sensor, boost pipe, etc).
When the work is finished, I'll be able to swap between W2A+WI or just WI, buy undoing 4 jubilee clips..! :D

As I said before, Im just a boy in the 8-10psi range but on our cars charge temp is a big problem as we have an inefficient Roots charger.......