Hello All and windshield squirter diesel injection

[Solar_Subaru]

Hey Folks! Nice to meet you all, this is my first time on this forum. I hope to have many conversations with everone, as I know there is trmendous potential in Water/Meth injection.
My very first problem I could you some guidance on is:
I have just poked a hole in my turbo inlet tube on my IDI 92 jetta ecodiesel. I stuck a handmade jet into the hole and plumbed it into the washer pump.
I had previously messed with the injection pump (all mechanical) and have been running about 15 psi boost under full load. When I hit the washer switch, it adds 3-4 psi of boost, and a more than noticeable kick. Of course I was very excited about this easy performance mod.
Then I heard the noise...Sounds like the engine is detonating? I didn't even know this was possible in a diesel? I have also been told on the Megasquirt Fuel Injection Forum that I will probably chew up the compressor blade with the water/meth (windshield washer fluid) spraying right into the turbo like that. Some have suggested that the noise is cominf from the turbo, I really think it is piston slap noise. Once when I turned the injection pump way up, and the car was pulling hard, I thought I had heard this noise. but a clutch failure and the fact that the engine wouldn't idle back down made me turn it back. but for a moment I had almost 30 psi on this little 1.6.

Anyhow, Is the water into the compressor going to chew up the wheel? and is it possible I am hearing detonation? I'll tell you, the fuel economy and extra power is very addictive.

Tony

[JohnA]

There are a few threads around this forum, do a search for 'precompressor injection'

In a nutshell you want to inject a very fine mist of water/methanol.
Your windscreen pump hasn't got anywhere near enough pressure to produce fine atomisation like that, so you end up throwing water droplets to the compressor blades. That may damage it.

[Obscene_CNN]

Injecting water before the turbo will erode your compressor wheel. To spool up quickly they make the wheels out of light weight aluminium alloys. These alloys are not very durable. I can't imagine the small bits of the wheel are very good for your engine either. Relocate the injection point to a spot right after the turbo.

The pinging or knock sound could be due to injector pump timing. Timing chain stretch which can throw the injector pump timing out of whack. Increased load on the engine might aggravate this to some extent.

[Solar_Subaru]

Ok. I'll check out the a vw diesel forum about the noise, but I think it is either piston slap or preignition. the motor doesn't make the noise until the injection is on. There is some great information on here about precompressor WI though. This is great!!! I'll go looking for any possible posts on making water jets for a fine mist spray. I picked up a SNOW PERFORMANCE water injection kit used today, but I think the jet is way too big. I think the pump is good for 150 psi. This should be good right?

Thanks for the relplies!

[Obscene_CNN]

I'll say it again. If you inject water before the turbo you will erode your compressor wheel.

Whether it is a fine mist or a thin jet this is the result
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/compressor9eb-s.jpg

EDITED For better viewing (admin)

In other words, don't do it.

[Solar_Subaru]

Thank you for the very convincing evidence. was this your turbo? what size is the compressor wheel? how long did it take for this to happen? the picture really drives your point home.

[Obscene_CNN]

It wasn't my turbo. This picture was posted in this forum by someone else. It took about a year for this damage to occur.

for more info
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=875&sid=ef270dff21f3bd09df73c740216f4313

[JohnA]

Thank you for the very convincing evidence. was this your turbo?
what size is the compressor wheel? how long did it take for this to happen? the picture really drives your point home.
It does indeed. :cool:
Running without an airfilter (or a "performance" cone) can seriously hurt your compressor blades (let alone valve seats and piston rings)

(i.e. don't jump into conclusions without experimenting under controlled conditions and changing only one parameter at a time) :wink:

[Solar_Subaru]

Fair enough.
I am almost at the point of running what I have until the little sucker (no pun intended) lets go. I bought this car to experiment with biodiesel and Vegetable oil a couple of years ago. It has already more than paid for itself in fuel savings. I do still run the stock air filter because it is probably more than adequate. So I really wouldn't have any problem with shrapnel in the intake charge. That compressor wheel did look awfully dirty, especially for one with water being injected into it. Even my diesel turbo compressor is cleaner than that.

I am in the process of getting my Cosworth turbo 2 liter project together, and am considering water injection INSTEAD of intercooling. I have to do some more seaching on the forum, but so far, it seems feasible.

Thanks

[JohnA]

The guy who posted this (admittedly distressing) closeup had also run the turbo in the meantime with no filter at all.
This can lead VERY quickly to compressor damage. The extent and shape of the damage depends on the atmospheric condition in that place (fine dust, whatever...)
There is no way we can say that this damage was from the water injection (which I think wasn't even a fine mist to start with) or the lack of air filtration.

The jury is still out there --- we need a controlled test

[Obscene_CNN]

To quote the guy who posted the picture "I bought the turbo used and it already had the discoloration on the blades, other than that it was perfect. The turbo has never been run without an oem filter."

he had a filter.

he had this to say before the picture "This was with a .6mm jet placed about 12" before the compressor. "

Mist may not be as bad but I can tell you anything other than air hitting the compressor spinning at 80,000 rpm isn't going to be good for it. In steam powerplants they do not let the steam get to a point where it begins to condense because it erodes the turbine blades. Any particle, be it dust or water, will do damage to a blade at these speeds.

[JohnA]

Steam powerplants are not the same - duty rate there is 100%.
Yet, they still use water mist to increase the efficiency of the plant (by 10-15% usually)

Here exposure to the mist is very infrequent, only when boost exceeds a specific value.
So the percentage of time the blade sees mist is quite tiny.

[Obscene_CNN]

Steam power plants do not inject water into the turbines as it would cool the steam and remove energy from it. The whole purpose of a steam turbine is to extract energy from steam. They do not however extract so much energy from the steam that it starts to condense in the turbine. Condensation is taken care of in the condensor or cooling towers. This is done to avoid erosion of the turbine blades. If they did extract so much energy from the steam that it did condense in the turbine, they could get more energy out of it. Since turbines for steam power plants are very very expensive, the extra energy extracted by allowing condensation in the turbine is not cost effective when the added expense of the turbine wear is considered.

[JohnA]

My description wasn't accurate perhaps.
I did not mean to say 'steam power plants' but turbines for power generation

[Solar_Subaru]

I don't know if anyone is still paying attention to this thread, but I wanted to let everyone know that I have been squirting water/ windscreen wash/ methanol/ at various mixtures into the turbo compressor inlet since my last post on this thread. running methanol straight at pressure from the washer bottle pump adds about 4 psi of boost at full boost (18-20psi from 14-16 without) I use it to accelerate up hills without touching the accelerator, and am getting 47 mpg on 60mph cruises on the freeway. The added power is addictive. The only thing I am going to do to improve on this is a better container for the go juice that is boost referenced, as the power increase peters out in the higher boost range. Otherwise I have not damaged my turbo in any way that I have seen visually or in performance. This is my daily driver and I am into the Water injection every day while driving. Please keep in mind that this is a little dinky turbo, so damage to the compressor blade tips from large water droplets may be kept under control because of the their lower speed compared to a larger compressor that may be 4,5,6 times the circumference of this VW ecodiesel turbo.

Tony

[JohnA]

...I wanted to let everyone know that I have been squirting water/ windscreen wash/ methanol/ at various mixtures into the turbo compressor.... The added power is addictive.
It is indeed :cool:

...Otherwise I have not damaged my turbo in any way that I have seen visually or in performance.
Same here. When I was running precompressor injection on my motorbike I saw no effect on the blades whatsoever.
I only got errosion when I started experimenting with 'free flow' airfilters. :cry:

Thanks for coming back with the results Tony :smile:

[Solar_Subaru]

No problem at all. There have been a lot of naysayers out there.
The results have encouraged me to go ahead with precompressor water injection on my turbo cosworth vega, which at this point is still waiting for fuel lines on a still unrun engine, now that I have a place to work, and my other projects are coming together, it should be a runner soon. I have a used Snow performance water injection kit. I think I should be able to tap into the MAP circuit on my Megasquirt fuel injection for a 5 volt signal for the water injection controller, which is supposed to take a MAF signal from a Mustang.

The only thing that I am concerned about is pooling in my airbox with velocity stacks that the outlet on my compressor is piped to, which feeds individual throttles to each of the four cylinders.
Do you think this is going to be a problem?
How about pooling in the tubing going to the airbox?
Any suggestions?


-Tony

[Solar_Subaru]

http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?p=174094#174094
Here are some pictures of my intake plenum, what is your opinion of pooling with this setup?

-Tony

[masterp2]

don't think that because you have a small turbo, that it doesn't spin fast. It probably spins faster.

Could you post some pics of your nozzle setup, including position relative to the compressor face? If indeed you are not damaging your blades, then positioning may be key as to why. Many here have long held that spraying direct onto the blades is safe. A standing theory is that a river of fluid along the conduit wall is what causes blade damage.

[Solar_Subaru]

Yes, it most certainly spins faster, but the speed at the outermost tip of the compressor blades is slow relative to one with a larger diameter, the latter I would imagine could be more prone to damage from impact with heavy droplets of water or alcohol. Sorry, I should have been clearer.
Tony

[masterp2]

yes, good point. And that is, afterall the only important factor in predicting impingement damage. My mistake.

[ride5000]

I don't know if anyone is still paying attention to this thread, but I wanted to let everyone know that I have been squirting water/ windscreen wash/ methanol/ at various mixtures into the turbo compressor inlet since my last post on this thread.

tony, is this using a high pressure pump? what's the rail pressure? what's the nozzle size?

thanks
ken

[Solar_Subaru]

I don't know what the nozzle size is, maybe two small holes about .040 inches or so? About the size of a windshield squirter nozzle. The pump is a window wash bottle pump, you don't need the high pressure if you are squirting into the compressor inlet, except maybe for longevity, but I have been doing this for quite a while now. The only improvement at this point that I would like to make is that the bottle should be boost referenced to increase delivery with boost pressure. The power comes on hard at about 5-7 psi, but is less effective at 12-15 psi. The "nozzle" is a small piece of plastic tubing (1/8?) outer diameter with the end squashed with a knife and a heat gun. I must say, I think I got extremely lucky with the sizing. The nozzle is just poked through the inlet hose at a 90 degree angle. It sprays directly at the wall of the rubber turbo inlet hose. I thought that the water spraying at the turbine would slow it down, but there is not even a momentary drop in boost when the water hits.

If I get a chance I can measure the nozzle size. Keep in mind this is a stock 1.6 ecodiesel with a very slight injection pump modification.

-Tony

[Richard L]

I agree the blades should be cleaned if water has been injected.

[masterp2]

If I get a chance I can measure the nozzle size. Keep in mind this is a stock 1.6 ecodiesel with a very slight injection pump modification.

-Tony

photos of your specific alignment with respect to the compressor would be very useful!