RICESP Water Injected RX7 [Archive]

RICE RACING

23-09-2009, 02:03 PM

UPDATE 2022
http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides.htm
http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm
http://www.riceracing.com.au/Donmega_Waterinjection.htm

Alright folks, you know who I am, the squirting master, the squirting king, squirting everything !

This thread is about my own experience with water injection, detailing many versions of it across all kinds of engines/cars.
The first is just looking at a basic pneumatic/electronic based stand alone system. Working back from the end of this thread you will see the current Aquamist products and Syvecs/Life Racing electronics.
There is something for everyone to read in here to cover most popular engine types (reciprocating and rotary). As second half of 2020 onwards I am working on the latest generation of WI system which will be fully sequential of my own design and all controlled via ECU/PDU/Dash combination, as later generations are implemented the older stuff will go up here as a 100% free resource to help others separate shit from clay, none of the content is 'sponsored' or 'paid for' by a manufacturer and only the better system knowledge is put up. Last count I have accumulated over 135 engineering papers on this topic alone from 1913 to 2020, allot of peer shared results and my own humble developments. This you wont find on a Goolag search or on Arsebook! or Gagtube channel, so as flava flave famously said 'don't believe the hype'

I have helped many people discover the power of water injection for the last 30+ years, starting from the same basic spot as anyone who has wanted to find the best answers to making a street or race car more reliable and durable. I hope that these posts are of use to people who want to learn and apply the knowledge for themselves.

It's the single best part of internal combustion that I have worked with, love it as much today as I did back in 1995 when I first applied it seriously for my own car/s.
If anyone wants help, then feel free to post up here or get in touch with me.

Water Injection is reaching a level of popularity now that it truly has always deserved, despite the best miss information efforts from the haters one thing stands, it has been and always will be the ultimate way to produce power reliably and allow it for far longer too.

Get On It !

Beware of FAKE NEWS !!!
So many years of reading now seeing this rubbish, we just feel it is necessary to debunk this... FACT V FICTION !

https://youtu.be/80AcdZ7WdgI

https://i.imgur.com/JvyWBWJ.jpg

Richard L

23-09-2009, 07:55 PM

RICE RACING

24-09-2009, 12:14 AM

Peter, great pictures - post more if you can, I love those intricate mechanical work.

One day, people will believe in WI is the only way to make big power. Problem is lack of ignition power on ordinary set up. I hav elittle control over what people using our system on. It seems alcohol is the favour of the year.

I will post up more of the build over next few days.

In regards to the Ignition here in my home country no one uses Alcohol !, I suppose I have had a massive influence in this regard and led by example and shown people how its done (on my own cars and various customers cars), which is all they really want at the end of the day :) give them the key to the door and help them in the most important aspect (tuning and calibration of the WI system) and its an open and shut case on the merits of Water over anything else *including full race fuel set ups* :)

The ignition is the single most important aspect in a high powered car, it makes the difference between you telling the motor what to do V's it dictating to you how and when and what it wants to run on lol, I simply copied this basic fact from the old WW2 boys who were using magneto and huge current and energy ignitions to run massive water to fuel ratio's, once I figured out that key element/restriction of normal ways of thinking today a whole new world in terms of power and reliability were open to me.

Here is a picture of the CDI & COP systems current and burn time as measured on my pecoscope, it is very powerful !

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/34/trailingfrontrotor.jpg

This is picoscope testing of my CDI system, for current flow, primary voltage, secondary burn time, number of spark restrikes.... works well even a newb with electricity like me can figure it out

Burn time is roughly 420us or .4 milliseconds and there is 6 separate restrikes at 1000rpm over roughly 5 milliseconds per cycle. System pulls about 25 amps of first spark and 13 amps for the restrike sparks.

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9273/rrcditest.jpg

and testing of the ign video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcLGr-iQ_Hw

RICE RACING

24-09-2009, 04:06 AM

This is various pictures of my build up, fitting of Race Logic VBOX3i data logging gear, engine building, fabrication of all parts I made etc...

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/9448/riceports1.jpg

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/2649/riceports2.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2694/spports3.jpg

http://img387.imageshack.us/img387/6547/ebp3td8.jpg

http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/9206/rrdonk1.jpg

Original SP Donk ;) when you are the Don you can make anything happen :D
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/4590/rrdonk2.jpg

Full ceramic Don spec, 2 piece 2mm seal and ceramic corner seals !
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6515/rrdonk3.jpg

On stand waiting for love
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/91/rrdonk4.jpg

RR Spec Jizz to hold o-rings
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/3173/rrdonk5.jpg

Retainer for RR spec primary blank off plugs
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/5734/rrdonk6.jpg

Ready ready ready!
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1403/rrdonk7.jpg

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/7255/rrdonk11.jpg

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/3722/rrdonk12.jpg

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6383/rrdonk14.jpg

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/3567/rrdonk13.jpg

Making Turbine exit pipe for my SP.

And pic of my basic welding set up *hobbo set up lol*

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7581/tig1s.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/39/tig2.jpg

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/3460/tig3.jpg

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6061/tig4.jpg

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/7853/tig5.jpg

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8611/tig6.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1476/tig7.jpg

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/6997/tig8.jpg

Some more progress today, few more fittings to weld in AFR and EBP ports/fittings + finish off floating gearbox hanger support then this part is finished.

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7100/wgpipe1.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/625/wgpipe2.jpg

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/4297/wgpipe3.jpg

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/438/wgpipe4.jpg

Then to fabricate SS oil drain, and water lines, couple of heat shields as well.

After lunch Finished cut out of hole & welding of WG pipe :)

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/5950/wgpipe1a.jpg

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6381/wgpipe2a.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6261/wgpipe3a.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/6692/wgpipe4a.jpg

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/359/wgpipe5a.jpg

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9838/wgpipe6a.jpg

Finished AF sensor placement, also EBP sensor fitted too, all fiddly stuff really to get it to fit and be serviceable. Also have started work on decent SS304 heat shield (not finished yet), and fabricated the oil drain and inlet feed.

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4926/shield1w.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/1803/shield2.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5764/shield3.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7463/shield4.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6268/shield5.jpg

Totally sealed ! no radiant heat will go up to intake manifold ! :D

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/6256/shiledfinish1.jpg

Pretty happy with end result, its what I always wanted in my own car and any turbo should be like this IMHO, no more excuses of "too hot bro, cant boost it" :lol:

http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/1284/shiledfinish2.jpg

Well here it is, a tad over engineered!!! can be used as a third engine mount!!! (its not so bad weight is under 1kg) but its rock solid, holds coils perfectly and is very simple, each rotor coils set is modular and comes off with one cap head bolt :)

I probably * around for weeks on and off thinking how to do it and this way worked out best, lots of *welding and making different jigs *fiddly* especially the spacers for the coils, but that's how it goes lol

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/9789/cop2.jpg

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4082/cop3.jpg

http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/7108/cop1.jpg

Tomorrow wire up the 3 CDI boxes and all that is done :o

Well here is the turbo support.

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3847/support1w.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7444/support2.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/7942/support3.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1894/support4.jpg

RICE RACING

24-09-2009, 04:32 AM

Some of the clowns on one web site I go on decided to photo shop me into the famous Team RX7SP that won this countries premier 12hr production endurance race against the worlds best sports car makers specials (911RSCS and BMW M3R Honda NSX, Nissan GTR, Ferrari F355 to mention but a few who tried and failed for 4 straight years to beat the Mazda RX7) The SP model was the last race special when most of the makers went all out to try and knock Mazda off for the title.............. THEY FAILED :oops: :cool:

http://i499.photobucket.com/albums/rr360/1000-08/sp.jpg

Mazda Australia made only 25 of these SP race specials, Porsche made 100 world wide and BMW made the minimum 10 of there's... it is a very rare car.
It is a derivative of the M1020 factory race special Mazda's performance arm were making but that department shut down before the car was released so allot of the factory developed parts went to the Australian market and the car was further optimized and perfected... the rest as they say is history Mazda 4 Porsche 0 :lol:

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3433/chope.jpg

Richard L

24-09-2009, 09:44 AM

RICE RACING

24-09-2009, 10:03 AM

The images are stunning. I hope people will appreciate the amount of thought and work involved in make a reliable racing car. No pain no gain - 100% truth.

Your turbo support bracket is the best I have seen, any reason why to have decided making it solid by not putting an expansion joint?

The CDI ignition pack makes great power, you can almost see the second phase of the ionisation current after the big spike progressively using less energy on subsequent hits. You can almost uise this information to judge the quality of the burn.

Those pictures are valuable and hope you are able to keep them on the hosting site for a long time to come. As soon as I have a moment, I will make back-up copies just in case.

Please keep it updated.

ah thanks :oops:

The turbo bracket is always in tension from cold to hot so its reducing the amount of weight or load onto the manifold. < she has rod ends either side to take into account growth so its free to move. The exhaust has no expansion joint in the wastegate pipe since I calculated the lengths and though it could go without one, I kinda pinched that idea after seeing Rod Millens Toyota Tacoma and he did not run one lol, I had no room anyway for it.

Appreciate the comments and offer to host pictures it flattering. I only have these images on imageshack so if you would like to back them up that would be great :)

Will update more things *pictures* and some performance results when I get a chance 100%. Oh yeah she is my road car with full catalyst equipped exhaust, >

Here is pics of new super high flow cat, and picture of std 4" metal substrate cat.
To give you an idea I have measured 238rwkw on the std MS cat and no cat at all yielded 235rwkw! at same boost pressure.

The new version is for 450rwkw region! has basically the same flow as 3.5" straight pipe in flow testing.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/2333/img1315smallscat.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/5960/img1317smallscat.jpg

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2981/img1318smallscat.jpg

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9497/img1319smallscat.jpg

http://img198.imageshack.us/img198/8950/img1321smallscat.jpg

Richard L

25-09-2009, 09:11 AM

Another great set of pictures.

I missed the rod ends, sorry. The turbo brackery is perferct.

RICE RACING

29-09-2009, 01:43 PM

Hey Richard,

I posted this up on the peco users group, showing my injector current and voltage pattern, I am having some issues with my car at idle and odd function of the fuel injectors at 1000rpm and light cruise, its a FJO low impedance P&H driver... I think it is defective, let me know what you think b4 I rip this out and go to resistors.

http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2705/fjoinjectordrive.jpg

The actual measured injector lag time for 14v is more like 0.800 Milliseconds V's the ECU's drop down values of 0.550 milliseconds.. when I changed this value it helped the car a great deal on this idle and return to idle from free rev problem I was having... but something is not right in the injector pattern as it looks like it does not do the peak and hold part lol ! input appreciated :smile:

Richard L

29-09-2009, 11:32 PM

RICE RACING

30-09-2009, 02:55 AM

You are right, the FJO didn't seem to switch to peak and hold at around ~4 A. I am not sure of the peak can only be triggered above two mS, even the current is allowed to creep pass the 4A threshold.

However, it shouldn't any affect on your idle and light cruise unless the injectors are over heating. If this is the case, it might create local vapuor lock. When you open your throttle, the higher fuel flow may take away the heat from the injector winding.

The funny thing about all this is that it gets better when the engine gets hotter and the intake manifold and fuel rail heats up (all AFR's and timing staying constant). It is perplexing to me as I dont understand why it is doing what it is. This morning I set the injector lag time to 0.750 milliseconds and it is much better (re trimmed the fuel mapping so that was constant) than the 0.550 millisecond value.

Do you think I should eliminate the FJO and go to good old resistors and see who things function? I just cant figure out why the engine wants to stop if I have spark and fuel and the injector opening timings are fully visible on the scope :? I always seem to come up with these odd ball problems. :eek:

Here is what FJO had to say about the capture I gave them.

Peter,

The reason the injector current rises in a slope is because it is an inductor. Current through an inductor does not turn on/off instantly, that is the electrical properties of an inductor. This will also vary depending on the inductance and resistance of the injector as well as the supply voltage. The box is connected to the ground side of the injector and controls the current at that end so the voltage is irrelevant. However, you will see some voltage at the ground because there is always some ground resistance. With 4A and 1.4v you have a ground resistance of 0.35 ohms. This includes the ground resistance where the driver is grounded. The current measurement depends on how you are measuring it. The only accurate method is by using a fast response inductive pickup on the ground-side of a single injector. What is the injector pulse width during these random lean spikes?

Technical Support
________________________________
FJO Racing Products
Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
mailto:techsupport@fjoracing.com
http://www.fjoracing.com
ph: 204-254-5623 ext 3
fax:204-257-3190
________________________________________

Richard L

30-09-2009, 09:36 AM

First of all, mimimise the ground resistance and inductance by using a thicker or shorter gauge wire. Remeasure the wave again by putting the pico probes between the FJO's wire ends.

I still don't understand why the peak and hold is not triggered. Can you ask FJO at what conditions does the "peak and hold" trigger.

What is the coil resistance of your fuel injectors and are they paralleled up electrically?

RICE RACING

30-09-2009, 10:39 AM

I have had a gut full of the FJO crap, started installing the resistors tonight and will not do anything else except eliminate the FJO and remeasure the injector pattern. < I am sure this thing is faulty! it is not performing as stated full stop and all they can come up with is an excuse with my measurement equipment :roll: *like obviously why is it pulling over 5amps! if its a 4A peak unit then holds at 1amp?*

Touch wood I will get it done tomorrow and hope this resolves my issues. I will post up the injector trace running the ECU manufacturers suggested resistor size (supplied by dealer I got ECU from).

Richard L

30-09-2009, 10:59 AM

RICE RACING

30-09-2009, 01:50 PM

Can you measure the coil resistance of your injector for me, I can help selecting a suitable inline resistor for you.

When you remeasure, can you blip the throttle so that the trace goes beyond 2mS. If it still does't trigger, then we can say it is faulty unit. Be sure the probes are clipped to the wire end of FJO unit, there is no deny what you are seeing and recording.

3 Ohm Primaries and 4.5 Ohm secondaries, LINK have already calculated and supplied me 4.7 Ohm 25 watt resistors (they are anodized gold alloy mini heat sink type). On the further trace's ......When I rev'd the car and also when the car near stalled and the pulse width went well past 2m/s (closer to 3m/s range the patterns did not change from what I pictured) .

Wish me luck tomorrow, my patience is running out after doing such a marathon job building this car :sad: On a positive note the WI is working well and I have used about 2 liters so far and by accident ran 20 psi boost :oops: due to a wrong setting on the boost controller :roll: but the 10.4:1 AFR and WI means she took it in her stride. I guess I should be thankful that my ECU drivers still work and my engine is in one piece since it looks like the FJO is faulty, will know if the problems magically disappear.when I test I take the injector plug off and use a pico 2pin bosch plug female/male and do the current clamp to it and voltage supply to the other, so its what is coming from the FJO output

Richard L

30-09-2009, 06:58 PM

If you run one injector per FJO P&H channel, the coil resistance of your fuel injector is on the border line of 4A.

3 ohm draws:
4A at 12V, 4.6A at 13.8V

4.5ohm draws:
2.67A at 12V, 3.06A at 13.8V

This could be the reason why the P&H is not triggering consistantly fo the 3 ohm injector, if the voltage is fluctuation between 12V to 13.8V. Depending on how you measured the current will give you false readings.

The only way to read current accurately is by breaking one of the wires to the fuel injector and put the two probes to each of the cut wire. Ensure the PICO is not grounded or connected elsewhere.

RICE RACING

04-10-2009, 11:02 AM

Here is "finished" engien bay pics :) I am glad this is over :smile:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/rice/img1335ricesp2-s.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/rice/img1336ricesp2-s.jpg

Richard L

06-10-2009, 09:56 AM

Process of elmination, one step at a time is the best way forward.

You car is walking exhibition, it is so nice with all thise fabrication - I just wish people will appreciate just how much work is involved to arrive at this stage.

As power tuning, allow the engine to do a few more easy miles, lety everything settle down. Water injection and CDi is a good combination. Please don't go too fast for big power.

I will resize the picture for you if you don't mind, it is slightly bigger than most monitor can display.

RICE RACING

03-12-2009, 10:12 AM

It's been a long time since I updated.

Decided to change the fuel injectors & eliminate all of the resistors and other devices, also re-engineered some fundamental settings and specifications of the fuel delivery, should have it tested any day now and will let you know how I go.

RICE RACING

23-12-2009, 04:29 AM

Well I have had good results on the new fuel injectors (no resistors or P&H boxes anymore), car idles well and drives perfectly, I wanted to test the Stock Mazda ignition coils, lead set up and HKS amplifier (DLI) box and found it is far lower in capacity to the custom coil on plug full CDI system I originally made. It can only take less than half the water amount and the AFR needs to be set around 11.10:1 for it to reliably fire the mixture.

I am refitting the full CDI coil on plug system and will run the water injection system back up to its higher capacity after finding the limitation of the upgraded stock system.

With testing so far on 10psi inlet boost pressure on low water flow I have air inlet temperatures that are consistently 5 to 10 degrees above ambient temperature water temperature in all conditions is between 77 and 79 deg C (regardless of ambient temperature *tested to 36 deg C*).

RICE RACING

26-12-2009, 10:25 AM

Here is a few of pics of my modified atomizers and how well they do that job, this is a customers jet undergoing some calibration and general testing. Can be set from 100cc to 850cc per minute @ 1.5 bar pressure.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6094/img1571waterspray.jpg

Data logged air pressure and water pressure, testing flow modifications
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/6495/img1577waterspray.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1095/img1572watersprays.jpg

Works form 7psi to 100psi boost pressures < yes I have tested it this high :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lizxy3XIY8 <video

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7628/img1551sweet11.jpg

Richard L

31-12-2009, 03:15 PM

I should have responded earlier, I was too pre-occupied with our new system launch.

Again, great set of pictires. You system will go far with such a good dynamic rangem, putting all the PPS (progressive pump speed) system maker to shame. Thay struggle to give a dynamic range of 2x. Linearily and atomisation are terrible.

It is the right season to play?

RICE RACING

29-01-2010, 01:19 AM

Well Finally ! Tested & Finished :) *taken from another forum I posted up details, for reference this is a list of other cars at bottom of this page that I test to give relative performance in mild state of tune. Could will go even faster on same boost as at end of third gear it (last 5kph) got into higher EGT and the ECU increased the fueling (making engine too rich 10.6:1) to cool the EGT down (cost ~20rwkw in upper revs power), I have since redone the table to allow a higher EGT setting before automatic fuel enrichment will occur.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm

Logged the SP this morning and did some back pressure testing for SMB on the mid section street exhaust.

3rd gear 90-140 time of 3.11 seconds on 14.1psi boost pressure RR Water Injected,
Turbine speed 91068rpm
132kph = 0.443G < (10% more acceleration at same speed as ONE58 when I logged it at 12.2sec @ 118mph on street on 1.1bar boost on twins FMIC etc, driver only in car)
Turbine inlet pressure 12.0psi
Exhaust back pressure 2.63psi
6681rpm
11.36AFR
EGT 985deg C
Fuel pressure 64.98psi
Full boost = 3700rpm
Ambient temp 10.6deg C
Inlet manifold air temp on fast acting sensor = 32 deg C
need to do up the graphs, exhaust back pressure at 240rwkw on VBOX was 3.0psi @ 7500rpm (which I would class as quite good for 2 mufflers and a catalytic converter & plumb back waste gate set up).

The Zedhed

02-02-2010, 01:01 AM

RICE RACING

02-02-2010, 04:06 AM

Hey beautiful build, very well thought out and well documnted :cool:

So at 14psi boost your only seeing 2.63psi exh back pressure, thats very good.
You also have a turbo inlet pressure reading as well (12psi) that'll be interesting to compare as I'm going to be running one to with a sealed ram air inlet to the turbo. This is on a landspeed bike so I'm hoping I may start to see positive atmoshere figures at top speed.

Good luck with the car, it looks great.

Ian

Hello Ian,

Thanks for nice words :)

I too have a ram air sealed air box for my turbo inlet, there is a carbon duct going down into the nose cone main entry that feeds the air box, I should fit up a pressure sensor there and do some high speed tests.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/4515/img1517smb.jpg

http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/7213/img1525smb.jpg

The post turbine pressure I thought as you was pretty low considering it is fitted with a catalyst, plumb back waste gate, and two mufflers. Being 3.5" internal diameter probably helps that. Also at this low pressure ratio the turbine inlet pressure is lower than inlet manifold pressure which is beneficial for the engine. I did a brief test to 1.2 bar or about 18psi boost and this relationship held true there also.

Look to do up some graphical form of the data and post up so people can have a look.

At the moment I will be trialing a batch of 50/50 by weight methanol and water mixture (at a higher injection flow rate) to gain a bit more power and also have a mixture that is easier to ignite without loosing the amount of cooling I have at the moment. When I do the tests will update on that too. Here is a bit of other online resource of a good dyno test done on the topic (if equalized back to even boost pressures) there was a 6% gain in power from the blended mixture. Post number #1225 http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=934903&page=49 details follow on after this post.

The Zedhed

02-02-2010, 11:15 AM

I like your thinking :D

Sorry to use your thread but here's a couple of pics showing the ram air inlet (RHside leading edge of fairing) which is sealed when the bellypan is in place.
Thats a GT35R behind the green ducting. The under sump exhaust has yet to be finished, hense nothing leading into the silencer!!

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr163/The_Zedhed/CIMG1340.jpg

http://i480.photobucket.com/albums/rr163/The_Zedhed/Sept2009.jpg

RICE RACING

04-02-2010, 02:19 AM

Looks unreal :) no way I would get on that though :lol: serious lack of skill on two wheels :lol:

The Zedhed

04-02-2010, 11:05 AM

Last time out I toasted a motor at 230mph, luckily it didn't seize just ate itself very quickly !

Richard L

04-02-2010, 06:52 PM

RICE RACING

05-02-2010, 03:28 AM

SkyNight

05-02-2010, 02:52 PM

:eek: :shock: incredible work. Super!

RICE RACING

06-02-2010, 01:54 AM

I know people here love facts and figures :smile:

Here is the Kerb Weight of my RX7 SP (totally full fuel tank, all fluids, tools, spare tire etc, ready to run). My car has a 100+liter carbon fuel tank (you can see it just poking out the bottom left rear of the car) :smile:

2826Lb or ~1282kg as pictured.

(minus spare tire, tools, jack etc = 1264kg)

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9326/img1625kerbweight.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5710/img1626kerbweight.jpg

For comparison to other performance cars (I borrowed this! of the net from actual measured kerb weights of comparable cars)

http://www.germancarzone.com/test-data/6486-kerbweight-thread-fully-loaded.html

New: 959 Sport - 1566kg:

Here's a little overview for everybody

Exotics:

1254kg ? Ferrari F40
1262kg ? McLaren F1
1371kg ? Pagani Zonda F
1388kg ? Pagani Zonda C12S 7.3
1406kg ? Ferrari Enzo
1418kg ? Koenigsegg CCR
1472kg ? Porsche Carrera GT
1531kg ? Maserati MC12
1590kg ? Lamborghini Diablo SV
1800kg ? Lamborghini Murcielago LP640
1820kg ? Lamborghini Murcielago 6.2

Supercars:

1387kg ? Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale
1410kg - Ascari KZ1
1440kg ? Porsche 997 GT3
1442kg ? Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06
1463kg ? Porsche 996 GT2 MK2
1493kg ? Ferrari F430
1580kg ? Porsche 997 Turbo
1599kg ? Ford GT
1600kg ? Dodge Viper SRT-10
1613kg ? Lamborghini Gallardo

Coupes:

1244kg - Honda NSX-R
1268kg - Marcos TSO GT2 Sports Package
1290kg - Wiesmann GT MF4
1421kg ? BMW M3 CSL
1461kg ? Porsche 997 Carrera S
1636kg ? Aston Martin V8 Vantage
1492kg ? Chevrolet Corvette C6
1672kg ? Maserati GranSport

Exotic GT's:

1678kg ? Mercedes-Benz CLK DTM
1747kg ? Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren
1753kg - Ferrari 599 GTB
__________________

LARD ARSE R35 GTR DATSUN LOL

http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/cobb_r35_115.jpg

http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/cobb_r35_114.jpg

3825.6 lbs or 1735kg. 10 gallons of fuel *only 38lt so not full kerb weight* . Keep in mind this is a Japanese version, the US models may be a little different (more?).

RICE RACING

12-02-2010, 06:19 AM

Some more good reading here http://www.perrinperformance.com/pages/show/51
I got my Methanol today and mixed up a batch of 50/50 by weight will test it over the weekend on 1.20kg/cm boost... would like to end up on 1.4kg/cm (around 21psi in old money). When I get tests finished will post up VBOX result, but need to burn off 70lt of excess fuel as I filled it up the other day :oops: need to keep the weight equal for comparisons of times. :lol:

Richard L

12-02-2010, 11:24 PM

I am looking forward to the comparison.

RICE RACING

13-02-2010, 03:08 AM

I am looking forward to the comparison.

I have some preliminary results: (This is what I e-mailed a customer of mine who is thinking of trying it himself)

Giving you an update on my W/M 50/50 test.

I mixed up a batch yesterday (will take pics of what I did if it helps you) I went out today for a 200km drive. On the first few km I gave it a few squirts to make sure the remaining water was used out of the line. About 10km down road pulled out of a junction and selected 2nd gear and it was drifting up road just about to activate the traction control and the engine note was totally different to ever before (much nicer and louder)  *good start*

I built up my confidence along the way and started opening her up and the feeling I had in second was observed in 3rd and 4th, on my journey I was overtaking cars and 4wd?s towing caravans with crazy speed just leaving it in 4th (going to 160kph stupidly well). On my return leg after almost 2 hours running of the engine nonstop I overtook one car and revved it out in 3rd gear to 7100rpm on dead flat road I normally use, thing felt better than ever before (today is 25deg C). In this weather and on 1.20kg/cm boost at those revs it showed 254rwkw on my Blitz power measure, the previous highest was 232rwkw on 1.0kg/cm on about a 10 deg C day and engine was very cold (when I went to do my 90-140 test).

The impression of the 50/50 mix is that it does work far better in my engine set up when the water jet is set to 3 turns out (as today) on pure water I was having the jet out at about 2.5 turns and for like conditions the car now feels to me at least 10% more in power if not maybe a bit more? Can?t tell for sure till I hook up VBOX, it?s still got well over ? tank of fuel in it so when it works its way down to ? as per my other tests I will go out early in the morning and do another 90-140 test and get some more comparable figures.

I doubt I will ever go back to straight water again.

Specs:
3 turns out (water injector) = ~500cc/min on my system at this boost
AFR 10.9:1 at full throttle (was before 11.2 to 11.3)
About 13 deg ign timing 8 deg split
50/50 by weight methanol to water.
254rwkw on Blitz (from my experience engine is making around 450bhp region)

Peter

**foot note**
This power measure is off my on board boost controller which has a power meter also it reads a bit lower than what I obtain from the VBOX. The peak power as recorded on the Blitz data logging was at 6900rpm and the engine def does not fall off power nearly as bad as before, it does feel allot stronger especially given the car was heavier and also in about 15 deg C hotter test condition (not to mention motor had been running for 2 hours straight).

RICE RACING

13-02-2010, 04:48 AM

This may be of interest to some people, I still like to look at spark plugs after a long drive or extended use at a new setting on the engine parameters generally half a dozen full throttle applications is enough to establish what is happening via colors etc.

For those not familiar with rotary engines: (leading plug holes have a large opening to the combustion chamber and trailing plug holes have a smaller shielded hole) I use this visual check + EGT reading to balance any differences in the fuel air balance.
FL = front leading spark plug
FT = front trailing spark plug
RL = rear leading spark plug
RT = rear trailing spark plug
NGK 10 heat range plugs are 2000km old, run a 0.020" gap, Optimax Shell 98 Ron fuel, Mobil 1 engine oil (oil injected into motor), and Sthil 2 stroke premix at 180:1 mixed in with fuel also
10.9:1 AFR with 1.20kg/cm boost and 500cc Water Methanol at 50/50 mix (today's runs), engine operating temp is 77~79 deg C

In case anyone is bored! Look On !!!
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/attachments/newbie-forum/34364d1089770400-spark-plug-color-missngk.jpg

Front Rotor
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/147/img1633plugsreading.jpg

Rear Rotor
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/820/img1635plugsreading.jpg

Click here (http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.silverbulletrx7.com/plugs/ngk1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.silverbulletrx7.com/plugs/&usg=__dy6ffL4wxbiCHuly5uVZ2jgrjhs=&h=288&w=400&sz=37&hl=en&start=2&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=vp0FV51qMKYXBM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRX7%2Bspark%2Bplug%26hl%3De n%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG%26um%3D)

^ This site a bloke does a running analysis of thousands of miles of various plugs in his mazda, though of little relevance to this its a nice read anyway.

ziad

13-02-2010, 06:19 AM

why do u have "Sthil 2 stroke premix at 180:1 mixed in with fuel also "

is that some super special rotory secret to cool the engine??

RICE RACING

13-02-2010, 07:10 AM

In my experience of running these motors over years and having to build very many I have found you need at least ~80:1 (total) fuel to oil ratio at higher than stock power levels to reduce wear on critical parts in the engine *chamfering of apex seal biggest problem - see here > http://www.riceracing.com.au/apex-seals.htm *. The oil metering pump is not of adequate supply, nor does it distribute lubricant very well either thus extra lubricant is required in the fuel.... if you want to ask me why that brand you can PM me or simply go to ausrotary.com and do a search where I have spoken and given examples at length on this topic.

Went for another drive this afternoon and the car is allot of fun, 3rd gear accelerates out so well, its almost pointless selecting it at 100kph cause when you over take you are changing gear in what seems just a couple of seconds... better to leave it in 4th! hahaha and I want to run 1.7bar eventually ! :) that seems silly now :)
I went through some old notes and a friend of mine in Norway has a S5 13b turbo with T66 turbo (similar to mine) 1.0 a/r rear turbine and on his bosses engine dyno with 1.7bar boost it made 580bhp using 98 Optimax and water injection....... they ran up to 1.9bar at mid range revs on the stock 9.0:1 compression ratio.

I think for this car 1.4kg/cm will be more than enough :lol:

RICE RACING

17-02-2010, 12:25 AM

o.k. here is an update with more specifics as done so far, cause I am very familiar with my cars feeling and acceleration and have on board power measures as well I decided to do some longer term testing in all conditions to make sure its reliable before I go and hook up my VBOX and make an official comparison to the base I posted before.

Parameters:
1.20kg/cm boost, no fuel map to timing adjustments
1000km running of these various settings equally distributed.

Water flow rate
2.5 turns setting 404cc/min = good power feeling
11.3:1 AFR

Water methanol 50/50
3.0 turns setting 462cc/min = better power than pure water
10.9:1 AFR

Water methanol 50/50
2.5 turns setting 404cc/min = best power so far (car feels strongest of all combination's trialed)
11.1:1 AFR

So I have decided to settle on the last setting, there is no knock and the engine restarts :lol: and its in one piece :lol: General feeling is the car is fast (which is good) so from this point I will do a more thorough analysis and comparison of the performance.

Richard L

17-02-2010, 01:07 AM

Thank you for the results, it is a very intersting comparison. AFR is very predictable.

The Vbox comparison will be spectacular! Take your time. I bekieve the weather is still quite warm in Aussie land.

RICE RACING

17-02-2010, 03:01 AM

Richard L

18-02-2010, 01:25 AM

I will Richard :)

The weather is "hotish" but I tend to go do my testing in early morning and keep things relative most times so I can compare information in a valid way. last time was 10.6 deg C so will aim for that again. Through the day when I have been doing the durability runs its been 25 to 30 deg C in general.

Can't wait for winter, I should move to the UK, got any jobs for me Richard??? :wink:

I think you can do a back to back test (testing the difference with system "on" and "off") under any temperature as long as it is within a few minutes of each other. If you were to compare with some previous tests at 10.6 Deg.C, then it is necesary to do it in the morning. It is also interesting to do find out the difference between morning and high noon, with system on and off. Total four results, two baseline without WAI.

I wouldn't come to England, there are no road here to test your car on. The weather is miserable too. Last three summers, we did not get many hot days to switch on our aquamist shower unit at race tracks. Winter is getting colder too. So much for the promised global warming predicted by the top 2500 scientists.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/mist1.JPG

downpipe12

22-02-2010, 11:47 PM

RR,

Your build and setup is awesome beyond words. Great ideas, effort, craftsmanship and functionality all rolled into one. Love it! Anxious to continue reading about your results!

RICE RACING

23-02-2010, 02:06 AM

I ordered my car trailer today, it will be here in about 4 weeks or so then I can get into some more serious testing (and sleep easy). I'll post back when I'm closer to that point.

downpipe12

23-02-2010, 02:38 AM

Are there any threads where you give a more detailed explanation as to exactly how the setup works and how all the parts function together? I was interested in pre-turbo injection and Richard directed me to this thread and to the other 27 page discussion on this board. Thanks!

RICE RACING

23-02-2010, 04:37 AM

Found this quote from a pilot in regards to water methanol injection on planes he used to fly:

"Hi Gents,

May I make a contribution regarding the merits of water methanol injection in piston engines.

My back ground is in aviation, both as an engineer and pilot. Many years ago, I spent a lot of time on Lockheed Neptune aircraft. This aircraft was equipped with both piston and jet engines.

The piston engines were Curtis Wright R3350 Turbo Compound 18 cylinder radial engines. The number 3350 referred to their displacement in cubic inches. The rated horespower at take-off was 3700 at 2900 RPM.

Two types of take-off power could be used. The first was a 'dry' take-off, using no water methanol and 61.5" MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure). The horsepower produced was 3400.

The second type was the 'wet' take-off, using water methanol, and 59" MAP. The horse power produced was 3700.

The reason for the 300 HP increase was due to the cooling effect of the water methanol on the combustion temperature within the cylinder. This allowed the air/fuel ratio to be leaned slightly from a rich 11:1, to a best power ratio of 12:1.

In ordinary circumstances, the best power ratio of 12:1 could not be used in a 'dry' take-off configuration, because the engine would have suffered from detonation. Thus, the primary benefit form the water methanol was the avoidance of high combustion temperatures at high MAP leading to detonation. The methanol also lowered the freezing point of the water, preventing icing within the water tank at the higher altitudes.

The fuel being used was AVGAS 115/145. If a meaningful increase in power (auto engines) is required using water injection, then it will come from an adjustment (auto-lean system) to the fuel mixture at high power, whilst the water is flowing into the cylinders. Some trial and error would be involved, I would imagine. In any case, an air fuel ratio leaner than 12:1 (with water injection) would not be adviseable).

Incidentally, as a member of a group which still flies two Neptunes and a Lockheed Super Constellation, both of which are equipped with R3350 engines, we have had to resort to slightly lower maximum power values. This is because AVGAS 115/145 is no longer availble, as we can only obtain AVGAS 100/130 or AVGAS 100. Nevertheless, the performance / power is still impressive.

Cheers,

Kim."

downpipe12

23-02-2010, 12:32 PM

RICE RACING

24-02-2010, 12:02 AM

Cool read. I am somewhat familiar with the principals of WI and I run a post turbo setup on my WRX. I was really interested in the particulars of how your custom setup works. I know you are doing some different things but when I studied the pictures there were a few parts I saw which I didn't even know the names of. Interested in what the parts are and how they are setup and tuned to function as a system.

Again, beautiful work. It's work of art.

If anyone wants to know my WI system related stuff out of respect for Richard and this great site please send me an E-mail about it as I feel its not the right thing to talk about here for various reasons, this thread is more about my own car and testing of the WI rather than my own set up etc if you know what I am getting at here. What I do can be achieved with his much better units too, mine is but a self made very antiquated by comparison solution towards getting the undisputed benefits of water injection :)

My e-mail is peter@riceracing.com.au

Richard L

24-02-2010, 07:17 PM

Do post the principle of operation, it is a good technical information for those who wants to know how it is done without a pump. It is very clever.

downpipe12

25-02-2010, 06:04 AM

email sent...or, as Richard suggests, perhaps an overview here would be ok? I'm sure others are curious as well.

RICE RACING

25-02-2010, 06:48 AM

Full credit for my system ideas goes to Eldred Norman and Hugh McInnes.

Eldred gave me the idea for the air water atomizing nozzel and Hugh the pneumatic nature of operation.

basics first:

A pressure vessel is linked to manifold pressure (open link, no one way valves etc) this pressure being tied to intake manifold pressure determines the fluid line pressure and thus the delivery rate is in proportion to the vessel pressure, it works in an acceptable fashion on most high performance single turbo cars in regards to metering. What happens in this basic form is that at peak boost there is a higher water to fuel ratio or percentage (lets say maybe 35%) and as revs rise past peak torque/boost onwards to peak power point the ratio can come back to a more correct target say of 20%. It naturally delivers more fluid where its needed mostly at peak cylinder pressures (and over doses a bit at lower revs if the boost builds up quickly) but if the AFR is kept anywhere north of 11.11:1 then the power losses of this brief over water rate is below 5% in my experience.

ahhhhh now from this pressure vessel it goes to a filter stage, then a solenoid (which is ok enough to be used with 50/50 water meth) and is controllable enough to be used off a PWM circuit on an ECU that has this function if you want to fine tune the delivery rate at lower rpm's etc. then to the water side of the nozzel.

The other side of the nozzel is plumbed to the same pressure source and it blows a small volume of air out two small orifices which explode the stream of water into finer droplets, which generally are fine enough to allow it to be used on the lower pressure side of a turbo inlet system (between air cleaner and compressor wheel). From my research of war time WI tests this injection location will give a maximum air flow increase of around 4%... so will make your compressor flow 4% more for the same given rotational speed, after this amount the effect gets saturated from the info I have been able to find on the topic.

In its simplest form the WI system is turned on by boost pressure, via an adjustable pressure switch, but in my case I control it off the ECU though I do not trim the delivery rate its set to 100% values so its on or off and flow is determined by boost pressure. Good thing about this is its relative to boost so the more boost you run the more water flow and its basic and seems to work ok for me. The water nozzle has a precision flow control valve so the rate can be adjusted from 100cc to 850cc/minute, according to my calcs at 20% WtoF that should cover a 2.6lt motor to 1000bhp in turbo form.

This is it in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lizxy3XIY8 (on lap top you can see VBOX telemetry of pressure transducers mounted in the water line and air line, doing calibration)

That's roughly everything about it. Once again I cant pay enough respect to the old boys who I got this idea from back when I was doing my engineering diploma and dreaming of one day having a turbo rotary that I could make fast :) I progressed through weber jets just squirting solid streams of water :) doh! to running mixes of meth to water cause I could never get it to work with stock ignition, and then not really knowing much about the flow rates to effects or any real progress, I wanted to give up on WI as I thought it was "shit" but when I had one engine fail I decided to look into it properly found the right nozzels, pulled my finger out and tested the flow rates, upgraded the ignition system and the rest as they say is history........ I would never ever run a car without water injection, the more I research it over these years and through my own experiences the more I love the stuff. Sadly its only a topic of interest for engineering types I have foudn over the years :( its because I honestly believe you need to have some formal thermodynamics and engineering exposure or qualifications to understand all of the old reports you can find these days thanks to the internet. Most enthusiast have no hope let alone performance shops and lord help us the current age of internet only businesses and forum guru's who seem to pop up at a seemingly exponential rate these days.

I love this forum and all of the smart people on it who have contributed and know just how great WI is, it feels a bit stupid talking about this as it was all done and realized to a very high level of understanding during the war in the 1940's, but we can only hope the good word gets spread and many others can benefit from what we are lucky to know

My fingers hurt :lol:

downpipe12

26-02-2010, 02:04 AM

Thank you SO much for taking the time to explain your system! By far the cleanest and highest quality custom pre-turbo setup I have ever seen.

Have you done any experiments testing out pre and post turbo setups? What I am wondering specifically...is would adding a small nozzle pre-turbo benefit a properly tuned post turbo setup?

RICE RACING

26-02-2010, 08:55 AM

Some may find this little update interesting:

This afternoon (ambient 28deg C at time of test) could not control myself and needed to go for a drive :) during the week I simply adjusted the plug gap, changed the spacing of the leading plugs distance from the rotor face, took 2% out of my main ECU fuel table and turned my W/M back to 3 turns setting.

Drive it and its an animal :shock: pulled the best yet and I was game enough to look at the mixture meter before hitting 7800rpm in 3rd gear (100mph or so) and it was 10.5 to 10.6:1 AFR the power on the on board logger showed 415rwhp (est 498bhp). I was expecting the AFR to go leaner as last time I tested it in that spec on the water injection setting it was about 10.9:1 AFR (but I changed the plug gap *narrower*) and took a tiny bit of fuel out of the ECU map? and it went the other way?).

It was allot of fun :cool: and I hope also to get back one input box from Race Logic (sent for repair!) then I can hook up all the proper instruments and do some more tests, relative to the first one. My intention was to reduce the fuel mixture to somewhere around 11.8:1, but it feels very great as it is now + set like this is less stress full on the engine and turbo especially when pushing high gears and speeds for extended power use............. thoughts anyone?

Oh here is a pic of the WI testing (not sure if I posted this in other pages, I'd reload to check but I have the gayest internet speed in human existence)
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6094/img1571waterspray.jpg

downpipe12

26-02-2010, 04:33 PM

RICE RACING

26-02-2010, 11:00 PM

Yeah :? oh well my #1 priority is durability under hard stresses rather than output in one test, its a constant battle within. You settle on one target then you get that and you always want to move on to another... I find it best if I don't drive it all the time then when you get back in it your still surprised with how well it goes (prob a good general tip for life).

In another thread on here a few years back I posted my findings when using my works engine dyno for a Formula SAE engine we were calibrating and also tests I have with a Toyota Supra on a rolling dyno and noticed zero effects on power readings from these types of mixtures all the way to the *ideal* mixture settings, the one constant there was (I found) sufficient ignition energy/capacity. This could be what I am seeing with the reduced plug gap? Obviously BSFC is wildly effected but that is the least of my concern or should I say a low priority over durability then power output.

RICE RACING

28-02-2010, 06:32 AM

odd that it went the other way. did you change the mixture at all? i don't know if changing plug gap could affect AFR readings...never heard of that...but thinking about it a little, anything that changes the burn could possibly affect the readings? pure speculation...

either way, more power is always good. i would suspect even more if you do manage to lean it out a bit more...

You were right :)

I took it out again today, but with computer hooked up and did 2 full 3rd gear pulls to 100mph and 8000rpm and what I saw the other day just glancing at the mixture meter was a rich spot that showed up after 7400rpm or so to 8000rpm, in the two tests today with 3 turns on the WI and 50/50 with 2% reduced fuel map was 11.0 to 10.8:1 AFR and in the rich zone down to 10.1:1. Moral is you can't trust yourself and must data log all of this stuff.

car is consistently more powerful, showing ~280rwkw (or 370rwhp) on small up hill accent with 1.2kg/cm boost pressure.

I did my final fuel trimming to set the base tuned AFR to 11.0:1 with the W/M activated, from here on in I can simply change the target AFR number and it will automatically adjust the fueling to whatever AFR I want to experiment with.

Ambient air temperature today was 18 deg C during the test and at the end of 3rd gear the AIT was 45deg C, the second test was a long probably 20 degree incline hill and the start AIT was 30 deg C and again at the end of 3rd gear it was 45 to 46 deg C, this is measured after the throttle body and maybe a foot from the inlet port, with high speed sensor. Goes really well for low level of boost (220kpa absolute) and heavy AF mixture.

downpipe12

28-02-2010, 08:46 AM

sweet!

that is a cool feature being able to auto-adjust to a target AFR. I would start leaning it out maybe just .1 at a time and see what happens.

RICE RACING

28-02-2010, 11:12 AM

sweet!

that is a cool feature being able to auto-adjust to a target AFR. I would start leaning it out maybe just .1 at a time and see what happens.

I forgot to add the reference time for 90kph to 140kph pull in third gear was 2.84 seconds (last was 3.11 seconds) so its a fair bit quicker :) this was not in my ideal test location (had uphill gradient, makes it even more impressive.) and last test was in 10 deg C v's today closer to 20 deg C. You can see on my site how this 90-140 time compares to lots of other cars I test http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm

This was before I did the final trimming of the AFR curve too ;) when I get the same conditions and the other VBOX module back I will post up the full data log back to back to the first reference test. The car is a rocket :) today is the first time I have had a massive smile and laughed out loud after passing a truck and a few cars banked up in front of me. I doubt I will waste time optimizing it any further, but you never know :lol:

downpipe12

28-02-2010, 06:24 PM

something tells me you will...just a hunch, lol...

cool man, i look forward to future updates.

have you played around with post-turbo injection setups as well? or just the pre-turbo stuff?

RICE RACING

01-03-2010, 12:26 AM

something tells me you will...just a hunch, lol...

cool man, i look forward to future updates.

have you played around with post-turbo injection setups as well? or just the pre-turbo stuff?

only pre turbo, Richard made me up some custom kits many years ago now and they were the ultimate, featured pre and post turbo situations for injection.... I personally did not get around to using them sadly and decided to refine my own basic set up.

All of the data I have found to date has showed pre turbo is more advantageous for a power increase comparing running with and without, where as post while reducing knock does not give the performance gains. Though I have never tested that myself personally I must mention.

downpipe12

01-03-2010, 03:42 AM

The aquamist stuff is really nice, I agree. I am currently running an old SMC kit which I picked up used...it does the job well enough for now. I run a 50/50 mix post turbo and definitely picked up some solid gains...I would say around 40whp...plus quicker spool, and smoother acceleration. I do not do my own tuning, but from viewing the logs it appears to be a combination of the typical...leaner mixture, more boost, more timing. Better fuel economy too...I picked up about 30 miles or so per tank.

From what I have read, it would seem that the main advantage to injecting pre-turbo is that injecting there actually effectively changes the compressor map and improves the overall efficiency of the turbo itself, in addition to all the other commonly known benefits.

Personally, I am debating whether or not to add another nozzle pre-turbo...somehow try and get the best of both worlds.

Howerton Engineering

01-03-2010, 04:04 AM

This is a bunch of great info. Has me inspired to get a nozzle and start experimenting.

Looks like you have quite the following on other forums as well;

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nitrous-alcohol-water-injection/361415-air-atomizing-nozzle-arrived-today.html :lol:

RICE RACING

01-03-2010, 04:10 AM

This is what I like about friendly forum like this with similar thinking individuals, we can all do our little bit of testing and gain inspiration from each other (which is important if you have been doing it for many years on end!) some days cars and testing can get the better of you :roll:

My own view is that at least I probably am still learning from all of the stuff done in prior history, I am trying to be thorough with it and invested in the Race Logic VBOX3i gear so I could for myself as much as for others have something where I can know what has a positive effect or negative (in terms of car performance). Its great if more and more of us *time/wifes/life permitting* keep learning and not only help ourselves but each other in getting the most out of this stuff.

Nice posted link too, I signed up there but it would not let me post for some reason, then I though I am on so many forums I just can not justify the time to repeat myself over and over.......... though I would love to help as many people as is possible when it comes to my own experiences with water injection. It is the thing I find most interesting out of all of the engineering aspects on cars, I am still fascinated by it & that is saying something :lol:

Richard L

01-03-2010, 08:09 PM

Thanks for sharing the technology behind your clever system. I have seen quite a few systems around but with a lesser tunability than yours. You are miles ahead on controlling flow.

You are correct, the forum is for anyone who is interested in the concept of WI, at any level of understanding. I keep the commercial part on the sponsers forum. I got drawn in to this many years ago, was inspired by an engineer. As usual, the curosity got the better of me and never looked back. I was lucky that I already have a ready made workshop where electronics and mechanical parts can be develeped, just need the will.

I think you can further this system by adding an air pump so it can be injected post turbo, not that it is needed. If you seriously want to market this to the masses, This issue will be raised by your copycat competitiors.

I have first read this on a book where VW have experimented water injection with air assisted nozzle. I will try to scan it an dpost it here - if I can find it.

Keep up with the good work.

RICE RACING

02-03-2010, 12:16 AM

Will do and thanks Richard and everyone else for making me so welcome here.

Now, I just cant stop wanting to drive the car :smile: I have my local VBOX supplier sending me his own frequency input module until they figure out what to do with mine so I can recommence some proper testing, it may be here hopefully by the end of the week and I will put up some fancy graphs for you all to look over. This will be without EGT readings though, the very fine exposed tip thermocouples I used in both front and rear rotor have gone open circuit, they both failed within 100km of each other after around ~3500km of use. Its quite complex a task to replace these so wont be done any time soon, however they did last long enough for me to get the balance right across all manifold pressures and rpm ranges between both rotors.

Howerton Engineering

02-03-2010, 12:59 AM

We all appreciate the data and knowledge you post up.

On a side note, I have number of TC's throughout the inlet track on my car and find that some fail very quickly from what seems to be high frequency vibration. I use small exposed element units as well. 3500km seems about average for some of the problem units I have. It's hard to find something that reacts fast enough but is durable as well.

RICE RACING

02-03-2010, 03:19 AM

On a side note, I have number of TC's throughout the inlet track on my car and find that some fail very quickly from what seems to be high frequency vibration. I use small exposed element units as well. 3500km seems about average for some of the problem units I have. It's hard to find something that reacts fast enough but is durable as well.

Tell me about it, on this car I have recorded on average much higher EGT temps than I am usually used to but Ironically the pipes and turbo after a run show not as much basic color "glowing" I always used shielded probes and run them much closer to the wall of the pipe, this time I decided to use exposed versions of smaller wire diameter for both elements and allot closer to the center region of gas flow, the response was unreal and for the first time I was getting real EGT readings that were comparable to other data I have on file from SAE wankel engine reports *turbocharged* even have one from an old Lotus 4 cyl turbo which showed 1000+deg C temps pre turbo on moderate power of only about 200bhp or so and T3 frame turbo.

I believe I got the true readings but as you say the longevity is just not there, I guess there is no basic solution to this... all things like moving them closer to outer wall, using thicker wire constructions and even shielding will all help but you will never know the true temperatures :? They did do their job though so am happy, I established a pattern for fuel richness to EGT and try to strike a balance between those two and not have miss fire due to inadequate ignition energy. Thing I did notice (just as in one excellent paper I have on the topic) that excessive WI on a heavy mixture even with full spark and no apparent miss fire does cost a lot of power with coolish charge temperature.

Howerton Engineering

02-03-2010, 03:43 AM

Looks like you've been through a lot with the TC's. My intake are 1/16" SS sheath, exposed junction TC's. They definitely don't like any vibration, especially from an M45 SC up near 18000rpm. In the exhaust I probably am not getting the response you are or I would like, but it has lasted. It's got a much thicker sheath but still exposed junction. Here's what's in the exhaust;

http://tscsensors.com/egtep0720001ssnexhau.html

Not sure how it compares to yours, but so far so good.

RICE RACING

02-03-2010, 03:50 AM

They look really nice, I will order two of them, mine is basically the same except the exposed junction extends out past the end another 5mm or so, I believe the wire has broken on both. Those probes you pictured def wont suffer that problem.

RICE RACING

02-03-2010, 11:15 PM

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/nitrous-alcohol-water-injection/356487-my-water-meth-results-29-13whp-33-69tq.html

I thought this was a nice simple basic test on that forum, for 50/50 Water Methanol and 500cc nozzel, note it is not pre turbo though. It shows no power gain (on/off) on same engine set up specifications. Its a bit too much fluid in my experience for that level of power, but non the less its good to see stuff like that posted.

RICE RACING

04-03-2010, 02:20 AM

R35 GTR tested yesterday at EC circuit. ~242kmh on straight max speed.

Boost up, exhaust, tune, smaller wheels, minus passenger seat and a bit of weight etc (1750kg run weight)

90km/h-140km/h time's 2.83 seconds to 3.04 seconds, not allowed to tell you lap time. But does show ~325awkw on VBOX on track and runs 125+mph at EC Drags too.

^ Some may find this a bit interesting given all of the hype around the R35GTR, shows a little old Mazda Rotary can hold its own I think. My VBOX module turned up today, I will run the current specification on 17.5psi boost pressure and put up the 90-140 analysis for you to look over.

Richard L2

07-03-2010, 01:43 PM

Getting better and better by the day. :)

RICE RACING

07-03-2010, 11:33 PM

Yes :) I am very happy with it, especially the power band of the engine mostly. These days too much emphasis is put on "hollywood" power outputs with no consideration given to the rest of the power story.

Massive rain storms here so no testing this week, but will recommence soon.

RICE RACING

10-03-2010, 09:39 AM

Well I tested it today with the VBOX3i hooked up.

My on board Blitz boost/power meter showed 278rwkw @ 6600rpm and the VBOX3i with my own formula gave 273rwkw @ 6650rpm :)

I have done up an Excel sheet summarizing the 90-140 time V's the R35 GTR

<resized>
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/rice/vbox90140test-2.gif

<original>
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7232/vbox90140test.jpg

In summary the power went up from 235rwkw to around 273rwkw @ peak (16.8psi v's 14.5psi), on a linearized scale (for boost difference) you can see that the Water/Meth mixture account for another 20+rwkw as I measured it. I did test at a higher location (100meters higher than normal location) and the weather was about 7 deg more than the base run. I have trimmed the fuel a bit more after this run today (you can see it went rich) I have also put the WI system back to 2.5 turns), these adjustments should bring it back to my target of around 11.5:1 or so.

RICE RACING

13-03-2010, 06:40 AM

O.k. Here are the testing graphs I promised. In summary they are the first ever setting ~230rwkw region on water. Then I changed to 50/50 and up rated the boost to 1.2kg/cm setting (can see actual logs figures across RPM ranges on various graphs) along with refinement of fuel mixture to point of last graph where its at the target range of 11.2:1 or there abouts.

The difference on road is excellent with power all the way to 8000rpm. In 2nd gear traction control needs to be turned on.... I have done a months worth of testing at this level and its very strong with no problems, system parts can tolerate the mixture too (tested 2 months now or more).

The last graph today was a bit warmer in weather, but test location was exactly the same and it shows the extra power in last few hundred rpm due to just the mixture change alone. All tests car was exactly 1320kg as tested (complete with driver) :)

I will eventually turn it up to 1.4 to 1.5kg/cm boost but am happy with the way it is now has more than enough power for track work and an good spread too. My experience with the meth mix in my own case yielded some more power for like conditions so I am glad I went down that path, improved 90-140 from 3.11 seconds to repeated 2.89~2.87 second range (probably faster as these tests were 100m higher and also in ~10deg C hotter test conditions).

1.00kg/cm boost setting WATER
http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9466/14psidynosheet.jpg

1.20kg/cm boost setting Water/Methanol, to rich at high revs
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4561/17psidynosheet.jpg

1.20kg/cm boost setting Water/Methanol, better mixture across range
http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8796/17psidynosheetbettermix.jpg

Spread sheet of VBOX data showing average data for both 1.20kg/cm boost tests (repeated sub 2.9 sec 90-140 tests, note higher average power in last part of rev range for correct mixture setting)

<resized>
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/rice/vbox120kg-2.gif

<original>
http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/447/vbox120kg.jpg

RICE RACING

13-03-2010, 08:27 AM

Forgot to add: (Avg-b) *for boost and power* between test lines are averages for those measures between test line obviously (separated in 10km/h) figures, and you can see the rpm at each 10kph test line. You can see the repeatability of performance for like figures and the obvious gain in average power for the last 10kph incremental (~6600rpm to ~7200rpm).
Peak power for both tests was 273rwkw and 271rwkw (first at 6600rpm and second 6800rpm, but holding near this peak level over a much broader range) and holding this to 7800rpm, rev limit is set to 8300rpm and changing point is ~8000rpm.

Hope people find this of some use.

RICE RACING

23-03-2010, 08:18 AM

I have some preliminary results: (This is what I e-mailed a customer of mine who is thinking of trying it himself)

Giving you an update on my W/M 50/50 test.

I mixed up a batch yesterday (will take pics of what I did if it helps you) I went out today for a 200km drive. On the first few km I gave it a few squirts to make sure the remaining water was used out of the line. About 10km down road pulled out of a junction and selected 2nd gear and it was drifting up road just about to activate the traction control and the engine note was totally different to ever before (much nicer and louder)  *good start*

I built up my confidence along the way and started opening her up and the feeling I had in second was observed in 3rd and 4th, on my journey I was overtaking cars and 4wd?s towing caravans with crazy speed just leaving it in 4th (going to 160kph stupidly well). On my return leg after almost 2 hours running of the engine nonstop I overtook one car and revved it out in 3rd gear to 7100rpm on dead flat road I normally use, thing felt better than ever before (today is 25deg C). In this weather and on 1.20kg/cm boost at those revs it showed 254rwkw on my Blitz power measure, the previous highest was 232rwkw on 1.0kg/cm on about a 10 deg C day and engine was very cold (when I went to do my 90-140 test).

The impression of the 50/50 mix is that it does work far better in my engine set up when the water jet is set to 3 turns out (as today) on pure water I was having the jet out at about 2.5 turns and for like conditions the car now feels to me at least 10% more in power if not maybe a bit more? Can?t tell for sure till I hook up VBOX, it?s still got well over ? tank of fuel in it so when it works its way down to ? as per my other tests I will go out early in the morning and do another 90-140 test and get some more comparable figures.

I doubt I will ever go back to straight water again.

Specs:
3 turns out (water injector) = ~500cc/min on my system at this boost
AFR 10.9:1 at full throttle (was before 11.2 to 11.3)
About 13 deg ign timing 8 deg split
50/50 by weight methanol to water.
254rwkw on Blitz (from my experience engine is making around 450bhp region)

Peter

**foot note**
This power measure is off my on board boost controller which has a power meter also it reads a bit lower than what I obtain from the VBOX. The peak power as recorded on the Blitz data logging was at 6900rpm and the engine def does not fall off power nearly as bad as before, it does feel allot stronger especially given the car was heavier and also in about 15 deg C hotter test condition (not to mention motor had been running for 2 hours straight).

Gave here a hit today and its up to 282rwkw on the on board power meter at 1.2kg boost, running 11.2:1 AFR and max power was at 7500rpm :)

Fine tuning to the AFR curve and spark timing and WI delivery all helped heaps ....... its awesome, want to try 1.4bar now ! hahaha

Richard L

24-03-2010, 01:23 AM

A lot of fun info for the weekend. Did get much time to enjoy those wonderful information yet. Thanks for posting.

RICE RACING

24-03-2010, 03:14 AM

Any time Richard :)

I am real happy with it as she makes solid power to near 8000rpm, I did have to modify a few spots to do with my Fuel table where interpolation was not enough between arbitrary 500rpm points, so at 6100rpm and I thing 7350rpm I had to put it specific lines to mention just 2.

All of these things add up to make a big difference in how the engine operates when trying to set it at this minimum AFR point while still giving plenty of fuel for cooling. As the motor was dropping into say high 10 AFR points it showed very obvious drop offs in power which you could feel in the drivers seat.

Once I got onto all of these such mapping points and it was hitting the target 11.2 through the whole rev range it literally transformed the way the engine worked (I think as I posted earlier? or that may have been the diff of going to 50/50? either way similar reaction was noted).

I feel now I have a good base to work from and the power for boost in street trim is right up there, the rest (more power) can either be from increased boost pressure or maybe overall trim to target AFR (might try 11.8:1 and then 12.5:1). There was a quantifiable difference in my own car to trimming up the AFR firstly on the water alone (from way back in early posts) then the W/M. There is obviously heaps to refining any one set up is the moral here I suppose. Only extensive testing and on road or dyno analysis will give you the answer maybe as to whats the best settings for any given car and its combination of parts.

Howerton Engineering

24-03-2010, 04:17 AM

That last sentence is the hardest thing to get across to most folks. I've seen seemingly identical cars react differently from what would appear to be different sensor readings(inputs) and ECU builds.

Everyone always asks what they will get get out of a system, and I have to say the same as you, it really depends on how much you datalog and refine it. Each car and application is somewhat unique.

Congrats on getting yours where it is. That sounds like a very fine setup.

RICE RACING

25-03-2010, 11:22 AM

Got a phone call this morning at 7.am from a friend inviting me to go to the local 1/8th mile drag track (owner of it was running in his rail flat head supercharged methanol V8!). Could not resists so I quickly hooked up my new car trailer and loaded the Mazda on and went there.

Got a chance to run my car down there and practice some launching techniques, the thing is unreal :) 1st gear taking off simply requires a bit of clutch slip to preserve the gearbox and differential, letting the thing fully engage at 3500rpm or so it got such a great spread of power that it just spins the tires all the way through first, second gear grips up and third it was pulling near 8000rpm at the end of the 200m (100mph or so). Took max revs to 8500rpm and the hard work on improving the mixture at the higher revs did help, my passenger commented that it just keeps on making power and theorized it should be able to pull to 9k rpm hahaha (I informed him that was not recommended or needed). He was totally amazed that a road car with full legal catalytic exhaust and moderate noise level on ~17psi boost accelerated so well.

Riding in passenger seat he said in 3rd gear in last half of the track it feels as fast as his 6.7 second drag only 6cy turbo car, it was very hot today (maybe 30 deg C in the sun) on board power meter was showing 281rwkw @ 7700rpm. I took him for 3 runs back to back then did 3 or so on my own and it performed faultlessly. We have a drag event there on the 4th of April and am confident to show up and not make an arse of myself with a car that is too slow :) *I have VBOX tested his drag car, 36psi boost, methanol, 3300cc straight 6, tripple SU carb draw through turbo set up 1008kg car, making measured ~250rwkw 6.75 seconds @ 106mph in 200m test.*

Will have to implement the launch control system and also use staged boost in the hope of trying to get some better take off's........ though its not really made for that kind of activity at the end of the day it was allot of fun regardless. Will have time to instrument the car before that event and will get the VBOX data of 0-100kmh times and other performance measures also. The traction control was too invasive on initial take off and since I had not configured the launch control yet I turned it off totally on today's tests, the one thing I did learn is the fitment of the new Ohlins suspension full cured the cars tendency to wheel hop on take off wheel spin, it just sits flat and you can modulate the throttle and wheel spin with zero wheel hoping which means reduced drive line stress. :)

RICE RACING

26-03-2010, 11:06 PM

Did a 0-100kmh test today.

Bogged it badly, Launch Control was not working so on take off the Traction Control setting of 3800rpm minimum engine speed activated and for 0.5 seconds car just rolled on at a constant massive 10.90kmh :(, first to second shift was 0.620 seconds before it started accelerating again (did not use flat shifting feature) to be brutally honest it was an arse fest of an attempt!!! :( Got 5.39 seconds

Have since re adjusted the TC setting and lifted minimum engine speed activation to 5000rpm (so motor wont cut out) and increased variable boost to speed setting from 0.8bar 1st gear, 1.0bar second gear) to 1.0bar first and 1.2 bar second.

Hoping it will do ~4.0 second range or maybe crack a high 3 if I manage to perfect it.

RICE RACING

28-03-2010, 05:54 AM

Got a chance to do a run today at 1335kg test weight (27deg C day). Redid a few setting (still no flat shifting) Start procedure was release clutch at 4500rpm *no slipping* bit of wheel spin and engine dropped down to 2800rpm.......... Managed 4.40 seconds for 0-100kmh time. (will post up a graph report when I can).

There is probably 1/2 a second in refining technique and also working out boost control, as it was quite low in 1st gear and mid way through 2nd gear (1st 6psi below 4k rpm & 2nd below 12.5psi under 6k rpm). Probably best to leave boost control at the 1.2kg setting and not using variable speed boost and let the traction control modulate the power rather than the boost controller as its much much faster and more precise.

I can run 40kg less weight too reduce fuel 20kg and 20kg of spare tire, jack tools etc... Maybe high 3 sec is possible on road tires :)

Richard L

28-03-2010, 10:30 AM

Looks like you are have great fun with all your hard work building this machine. Would like to see 3s with perfected launch - do-able on your car.

RICE RACING

28-03-2010, 10:43 AM

Here are the files, self explanatory really :)

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4278/0100kmh440.jpg
Note full power not achieved in 2nd gear, in 3rd showed 273rwkw on VBOX and 276rwkw on power meter (as per averages to date)

More detail of average power delivered, start RPM and drop down in 1st gear, showing car was not abused to get the time :).......... there is some more left there as can be seen, nothing some more fine tuning of settings and technique would yield.
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/1475/0100testload.jpg

stevieturbo

28-03-2010, 11:58 AM

RICE RACING

28-03-2010, 12:17 PM

Road testing, or grippy track testing ?

I was recently racing on a local airfield ( smooth tarmac just ) and found MT DR's offered me more grip than their ET Streets !

60fts were similar, but ET's were down 0.2-0.3 secs

^ Was out on highway, pulled off side of road onto dirt then back on to do the test...

I am going to my local 1/8th mile drag track on the 4th of April and will see what its like there, and can also run it out to 160kph or 100mph and get that incremental as well (in safety) :) I was at the track on Wednesday but it felt slippery as, though I was taking off totally different slipping the clutch and it was building allot more boost in first gear at higher engine rpm (left it on 1.2kg setting on boost controller). *did not have time to fit VBOX gear due to short notice*

2nd gear on the drag track on 1.2 bar felt stronger than today and more grip, the traction control was activated on the highway test on applying power and release of clutch into 2nd gear for a short bit (you can see AFR spiking lean *fuel cut of TC* looking at graphic).

I'm not really into that type of testing or performance I should say (its a bit too harsh on the car), but lots like to know the figures for comparisons to other types of road cars I suppose.

RICE RACING

01-04-2010, 02:25 AM

Turned her up to 1.40kg/cm boost setting this morning (weather starting to cool down here 18 deg C). Was boost learning *automated thing on Blitz unit* and showing 1.44kg/cm @ 7000rpm....... car has no misfires and spins wheels hard in 2nd gear when tires are cold.

Did a 3rd gear accel run down mild hill near workshop and its starting to feel really strong in acceleration I think I will leave it alone now :) ~20psi boost (243kpa absolute on ECU log) is enough in this particular road going car. When time allows will provide updated figures/graphs as always, but should be around 300rwkw level on my VBOX equipment (whatever that is at engine take your best guess!) 300rwkw on my equipment in this running weight (1305kg this mornings test) is really starting to feel good.

RICE RACING

13-04-2010, 05:44 AM

Bit more refinement and fine tuning 90-140 in 2.75 seconds
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/8042/90140275seconds.jpg
Power curve, I trialed the race exhaust and it was poor, the car lost power V's running the street exhaust and it was hideously loud to make it even worse, exhaust system pressure was about 50% less and turbine inlet pressure was around 12psi on 17psi inlet manifold pressure, same AFR and Timing it had up to 30rwkw less, and the volume was double :shock:
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/417/178psidynosheet.jpg

RICE RACING

17-04-2010, 12:13 PM

Past another durability milestone today, have the boost set to 1.33kg/cm (showing about 18psi on VBOX in logs). Tested the engine compression after 1000km running at this boost setting and its ~120psi region. I reset the WI mixture to 4 turns (increased over the high power setting to give more safety margin) and took out 0.5 degree of timing at this boost and around 3 deg at higher boost levels (yet to try the higher level). AFR is 11.1:1 and is a bit lower to increase knock resistance for higher duty power application on track V's a one off power check.

I decided to go richer *11.10:1 target* and higher boost as its far safer (cooler, less prone to fuel quality variation that can induce pinging) than aiming less rich for optimal power at a fixed boost range setting

Power is ~280rwkw on average
90-140 times (over a spread of 6 separate tests) 2.82 seconds

My next boost increment step is 1.53kg/cm or 1.5bar (21.75psi old money!) When the weather gets cooler I will do that last step (haha for now till the next goal!) I am very happy with the power now and the way it goes "it flat out hauls" :) so am in no rush to step up to the next point............ but it would be nice to have over 300rwkw on my VBOX measure, but all at the expense of drive line durability let alone other parts so I will try to refrain from pushing more.

RICE RACING

18-04-2010, 03:30 AM

Yesterday a customer of mine with 100% water injection set up, this is one of my old systems fitted to a 12A (running cosmo top intake manifold!) Rotary street port running 18psi boost pressure.... (see non adjustable atomizer fitted in bottom left of pic).

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk256/Preza117/Cars/Workshop/100417Hubdyno/CIMG0039.jpg

He dyno'd 478hp @ the hubs on a dynapack chassis dyno = around 550bhp using the conventional 1.15TCF these specify.

RICE RACING

20-04-2010, 03:05 AM

Just a summary, now I have settled on 4 turns setting on my RRWEP110 atomizer = 555cc/min & 11.1:1 AFR, its around 25% W/M to Fuel ratio at maximum power, higher percentage at lower rpm's.

Needed some safety factor against any unstable combustion to cover all situations. Have it permanently set on 1.33kg/cm boost. Took some adjustment of fuel tables to give target AFR from 2000rpm to 8000rpm.

*listed below from my earlier post/tests*

o.k. here is an update with more specifics as done so far, cause I am very familiar with my cars feeling and acceleration and have on board power measures as well I decided to do some longer term testing in all conditions to make sure its reliable before I go and hook up my VBOX and make an official comparison to the base I posted before.

Parameters:
1.20kg/cm boost, no fuel map to timing adjustments
1000km running of these various settings equally distributed.

Water flow rate
2.5 turns setting 404cc/min = good power feeling
11.3:1 AFR

Water methanol 50/50
3.0 turns setting 462cc/min = better power than pure water
10.9:1 AFR

Water methanol 50/50
2.5 turns setting 404cc/min = best power so far (car feels strongest of all combination's trialed)
11.1:1 AFR

So I have decided to settle on the last setting, there is no knock and the engine restarts :lol: and its in one piece :lol: General feeling is the car is fast (which is good) so from this point I will do a more thorough analysis and comparison of the performance.

Richard L

09-05-2010, 09:43 AM

I love those minute details, makes very interesting readings. Can you post some logs on the AFR on each gears - one of the more difficult target to achieve.

RICE RACING

11-05-2010, 11:25 AM

I love those minute details, makes very interesting readings. Can you post some logs on the AFR on each gears - one of the more difficult target to achieve.

Hi Richard,

I ended up trying various other settings 4 turns, 3.5 turns, now back to 3 turns. The reason for this was I was on 2.5 turns for a long time and had the slightest amount of pinging after one test, car was restarted after being hot (sitting for 30 minutes) and all intake manifolding stays hot and on a 3rd gear pull it indicated very minor knock.

I ended up changing fuel supply from Shell to BP, reduced some timing, increased some W/M mixture and have not been able to replicate the condition again. Power was back to 273rwkw and 90-140 times in 2.76 seconds on 4 turns out ~11.1:1 AFR. So now went back to 3 turns setting removed a tiny bit of fuel at 7500rpm to 8000rpm and I think its all finally set@!

So much work to fine tune it all, stupid amount really... don't want to be doing it again in a hurry.

I am taking the car to race it at the World Time Attack Challenge in 10 days time, I'll have plenty of logged track data then hopefully. On the way back if I have time I will put it on my friends Dyno Dynamics dyno at this current 1.3bar boost setting and see what it puts out on that system too.

Peter

RICE RACING

27-05-2010, 11:18 PM

Little update on the world time attack challenge.

I did not do too well personally only getting in 5 laps before the brakes decided to not work on my own car (things happen!) but on a much more positive note a Mazda RX7 fitted with my RRWEP110 Water Injection system totally dominated the open class (rotary runners)! over 4.4 seconds faster than the next mega dollar (money wasted?) kiddie internet special wanker specification car LOL. To add insult to injury for the car that got totally decimated by the water injected one it had an EPIC engine failure (3 day old $10,000 engine build!).... just goes to show internet knowledge and shit talk does not equal engineering experience on making rotaries reliable and fast no matter what fuel type you decide to run.

Both cars were running E85 fuel.

When I got home I have another E-Mail from a 6 cylinder friend who has run another pre turbo RRWEP110 kit on a customers car and on 25psi T51 turbo they managed 705rwhp through a standard automatic transmission, car is driven to drag track and does 10.5@136mph on radial street tires, over 10,000km running on the standard engine block *impressive*

When I get a chance I will upload some pictures of the cars.

p.s. My car was running exactly *on VBOX* 273rwkw @ 18.5psi boost when run at this track so the power was very consistent, engine was perfect, just need to sort out my brakes and will be back out and show what a real reliable road set up can do.

Richard L

10-06-2010, 07:52 AM

RICE RACING

10-06-2010, 10:42 AM

This is a very exciting news, I bet you will more watert injected car in the next race. There is no better than the incylinder cooling effct of water when you are are under extreme racing conditions.

The WRC is a fine example of using WI. Highly stressed engine, lack of road speed. It has been used for a good 11 years until some guy in grey suit decided to ban it to save a few dollars.

Get the brakes and show them what you can do with sound engineering and water injection.

You cant teach engineering to monkeys mate. :)

WI is the ultimate, but we are talking to people here who have the qualifications to understand why... that helps lol.

*NOTE* a computer and internet connection does not equal qualifications/knowledge/understanding/ability...... < I think most forget this in this "electronic age"

Howerton Engineering

10-06-2010, 03:10 PM

You cant teach engineering to monkeys mate. :)

WI is the ultimate, but we are talking to people here who have the qualifications to understand why... that helps lol.

*NOTE* a computer and internet connection does not equal qualifications/knowledge/understanding/ability...... < I think most forget this in this "electronic age"

You might have a better chance with monkeys than some folks..........:)

RICE RACING

31-08-2010, 11:30 AM

Been stupidly busy with work to post up here, sorry WI fans :)

Car is in same basic configuration, I have replaced my EGT sensors with *Inconel 600* encased versions since the SS316 ones were not durable enough past 40 hours. Sorted out the brakes :) & changed some specifications of various other misc parts (nothing fancy just some plumbing).

Keen as to get out and do some more testing, Spring time here tomorrow (though we cant really say its ever Winter here!) :)

Richard L

31-08-2010, 01:05 PM

Yes, no more cracks. But mega bucks.

SS310 is a cheaper alternative.

RICE RACING

24-10-2010, 09:27 PM

RICE RACING

02-11-2010, 07:27 AM

Drove her today :) its sweeter than a fat chic molesting a bucket of KFC!

Little louder at cruise with new turbo, runs better, cooler, fixed the hot start "clicking" *boiling near thermostat* due to wrong water line mountings in first install :o21:
New EGT probes are sweet too. Cleaned some items and reworked a few bits I was not happy with and it came up pretty good

:party:

http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/6884/img2153matt.jpg

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/8779/img2156matt.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4882/img2149matt.jpg

RICE RACING

06-11-2010, 10:21 AM

Here is some preliminary information comparing two different specification (turbine section) Turbochargers.

1.00A/R Garrett T04Z (from circuit test)
RRWEP110 = 3 turns
266 rwkw @ 6950 rpm AFR 11.35:1
Boost 18.45 psi
Turbine inlet pressure 17.1 psi
Exhaust pressure 4.06 psi
Turbo speed 101803 rpm
90kmh-140kmh = 3.05 seconds (flat track)
EGT = failed probe after 35 hours (was around 1000 or so at lower boost and power)

modified turbine specification (today run)
RRWEP110 = 4 turns
268 rwkw @ 7250 rpm AFR 11.0:1 (1.7 degrees less timing)
Boost 16.72 psi
Turbine inlet pressure 14.43 psi
Exhaust pressure 4.03 psi
Turbo speed 101000 rpm
90kmh-140kmh = 3.25 seconds (10% incline rose 9m in 100m of test) *minus the incline these times are net equal from my experience*
EGT Fr 875 deg C
EGT Rr 885 deg C

I wanted to be careful so I richened up the car and also took a few percent off the timing, the fueling curve is not optimized like it was on the smaller turbo, I have refined the mapping and also have reset the boost controller so it can learn the pattern of the new turbo from scratch then it will on a flat road perform better in like conditions to the 1.00A/R set up. Car has more top end pull as is and when the boost learns the loss down low will be marginal.

You can see from the figures, that the Exhaust pressure *indicator of mass flow* is near identical for them both so this is one of my many cross checks to make sure no spurious figures are around, also the Turbine RPM is basically the same as well though this turbo has an aero nut V?s the other which when rebuilt had only a normal hex nut (whatever if any difference that makes lol). The Turbine inlet pressure is definitely less as you can see from the figures and despite the non optimized tune up it makes the same power and at high rpm so the engine is less restricted by this exhaust housing (which matches with the theory 100%) the car on power is QUIETER with this set up *unless I am on drugs* my theory on this is because less mass flow is going out the waste gate pipe (more through the turbine) and this must be making the car less noisy at full power as all other things are exactly the same from last time.

I have reset the boost controller to learn 1.35kg/cm which equals 19.2psi, with the slightly tweaked set up (back to original timing) half turn less on RRWEP110 injector (down from 4 full turns) and tidied up spots in rpm range to give perfect AFR line (target 11.2:1 to 11.3:1 AFR) it *should* get to around 290rwkw on my VBOX measure (this is like 319rwkw on homo dynamics?)????.. anyway hope I have not bored you to death!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I get around to driving it again will see what she does, should not be long as I have all the VBOX gear fitted in her so it?s just a matter of driving it. My best 90kmh to 140kmh time is 2.75 seconds at lower fuel load, flat road, (18psi average boost) and non heat soaked engine.

RICE RACING

07-11-2010, 06:14 AM

Boost re-learn at 1.35kg/cm
3rd gear pull from 2500rpm = 1+ bar or ~15psi boost by 4300rpm
4th gear pull from same revs = 15+psi by 3600rpm[/I]

VBOX3i results (on boost learning) max boost at this stage was like 1.25kg/cm or about 17.2psi
90-140kmh = 2.88 seconds, showed 272rwkw on Blitz power logging at 6800rpm and same power on my VBOX dyno plot (272rwkw @ 7000rpm)
Repeated same test in exact same location as the small incline (so I could overlay graphs and see difference to flat piece of road and it ran 3.07 seconds (v?s the 3.25 yesterday) exact same vehicle weight (cross checked on corner scales this morning ).. AFR on these pulls was 11.1 to 11.0 across the range all smoothed out and boost was pretty similar to the first run where I did the comparison for you.. so trim of fuel mixture helped the time improvement.

So after lunch I poured over the data and did some more trimming (2% reduction of fuel map) and went for a cruise. I gave it a few hits and it felt unreal in 2nd gear :auto: and partially in 3rd as well, on the way back on a nice stretch I pulled out to pass 3 cars and gave it the jandle from 3000rpm to 8000rpm and it was so strong! Stronger than a fat slut bench pressing buckets of KFC!!! The on board power meter showed 298rwkw @ 7200 rpm and held over 280rwkw to 7800rpm with don mega mid range power too. Boost was 1.35kg/cm or 19.2psi on the Blitz dyno graph log at these revs. So another 0.10kg/cm boost and a small fuel trim (along with refitting my old ignition timing map) made all the difference, oh and I turned the RRWEP110 down to 3.5 turns. AFR across board from 4000rpm to 8000rpm (75kpa to 140kpa gauge boost) is ~11.2:1 +-0.1.

I?ll wait for a cool morning and take out the 20kg worth of spare tire, tools, fire extinguisher! And run it at ? tank of fuel and I should beat my 2.75 second 90-140 record. As a side note when I was at track and it was doing 90-140 in 3.05 second range, I did 100kmh to 200kmh in 8.1 to 8.2 seconds range at same weight (1350kg total). I?ll hope to do this in 7 seconds flat now as now I can hold 4th gear due to the much better top end power with no loss of 4700rpm to 7100rpm power range (as measured in the 90-140 tests in 3rd gear).

It?s a win mate. Best power yet (nice increase with detail turbo<turbine modifications), much better power band to suit gearing with no loss of mid range at all. When the opportunity presents I'll do a full performance test and post up the information :)

estorvito

07-11-2010, 06:33 AM

:eek: nice

RICE RACING

07-11-2010, 11:51 AM

Came a long way from this initial test run below :)

Well Finally ! Tested & Finished :) *taken from another forum I posted up details, for reference this is a list of other cars at bottom of this page that I test to give relative performance in mild state of tune. Could will go even faster on same boost as at end of third gear it (last 5kph) got into higher EGT and the ECU increased the fueling (making engine too rich 10.6:1) to cool the EGT down (cost ~20rwkw in upper revs power), I have since redone the table to allow a higher EGT setting before automatic fuel enrichment will occur.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm

Logged the SP this morning and did some back pressure testing for SMB on the mid section street exhaust.

3rd gear 90-140 time of 3.11 seconds on 14.1psi boost pressure RR Water Injected,
Turbine speed 91068rpm
132kph = 0.443G < (10% more acceleration at same speed as ONE58 when I logged it at 12.2sec @ 118mph on street on 1.1bar boost on twins FMIC etc, driver only in car)
Turbine inlet pressure 12.0psi
Exhaust back pressure 2.63psi
6681rpm
11.36AFR
EGT 985deg C
Fuel pressure 64.98psi
Full boost = 3700rpm
Ambient temp 10.6deg C
Inlet manifold air temp on fast acting sensor = 32 deg C
need to do up the graphs, exhaust back pressure at 240rwkw on VBOX was 3.0psi @ 7500rpm (which I would class as quite good for 2 mufflers and a catalytic converter & plumb back waste gate set up).

thefalls

07-11-2010, 08:32 PM

Thats a very very clean engine bay.

RICE RACING

15-11-2010, 01:40 AM

Polished the bad boy today, in love !

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2548/img2175plish.jpg

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/5012/img2197plish.jpg

thefalls

19-11-2010, 09:13 AM

Does this car ever see the road? Hehe... very clean i must.
Any tips to the engine bay so clean?

RICE RACING

19-11-2010, 11:07 AM

I did about 300km in it last week :) *covered ~5000km in past year*.
each time I wash the car I try for every second/third wash to do the engine bay, just a bit of extra work and shamy it dry after I do the body work (with its own shamy I use on the wheels). I do love the car, its been a long term project of mine (for last 6 years) and now I am very happy with it, by no means is it perfect or a show car in anyway but as an all rounder that I 100% built and tuned myself that is near my performance goals it brings me much joy :)

Today I ordered some new spark plugs from Japan (different heat range). Last week I also procured a new set of springs for the waste gate valve, although its fully electronically controlled I am setting on a new higher boost base setting and the increase in mechanical spring will be of benefit. Also finishing off a part I wanted to do on the oil system, and some final settings on the RRWEP110 for the latest specification of the engine set up *Higher Performance Setting*

When I complete that (pending parts delivery) I want to do a proper write up summarizing all of the finer detail and the performance measures of it in this final stage. Till then I'll enjoy a nice weekend of driving ................... (try not to get engine bay too dirty!).

RICE RACING

23-11-2010, 09:21 PM

Probes tested and fitted up, interesting note they 100% read lower than the much thinner exposed types I was using before (I estimate around 50deg C for same conditions with bench tests) will confirm in car in next week or so.

New mods and set up looks great :) fixed up all the little details I wanted to do since the major re-engineering of the initial set up :) she should be a rocket! I'll post up all the performance statistics sooner rather than later I hope........ I can't wait. The Ferrari F40 is going down !!!! :)

In the 1000km of testing completed to date the exhaust gas temperatures have not exceeded 880deg C. Completed a proper longer haul load test to top of 4th gear (8000rpm) to get the highest reading as well. Normally peak in 3rd is around 840deg C in a near static load condition. Front and Rear rotor read the same to 0.5 deg C.

On cruising on stoich fuel mixture setting or leaner the EGT is over 100deg C cooler than before (on old turbocharger specifications). Fuel economy is flat out amazing ! including regular performance tests I average around 10lt per 100km.

RICE RACING

02-12-2010, 11:23 AM

Well :)

Fitted up the new waste gate springs yesterday bought option of 1.3 bar and 1.4 bar Tail springs (combination of different inner and outers). I settled on the lower 1.3bar combo just in case they gave a higher set boost. Along with the new higher power setting I upgraded the specification of the spark plugs and some other details too.

Took the "beast" out for a drive today and the boost went to 1.53 to average of 1.50kg/cm! which is around 1.47 to 1.50bar! or old money 21+psi boost :) .......... it pulls like a mother fucker! First 3 2nd gear acceleration runs just torches the rear semi slick tires to 8000rpm, after about 6 or more passes and a few 3rd gear pulls the rear tires got very hot and sticky and could "almost" use all of the extra grunt in 2nd gear (only in straight line though and perfect road surface).... third gear is just stupid and is over in a couple of seconds, its very fast now.

Fuel duty before was around 67% > now 75% same AFR
Power on the Blitz was just under 300rwkw
Peak fuel pressure was 70psi now its around 75psi
EGT peaks have not gone above 890deg C

First cool morning will go out and do a test of the 90-140kmh and also do a 100kmh to 200kmh acceleration test report along with VBOX power graph.

RICE RACING

04-12-2010, 11:28 AM

Boost learning procedure complete! 1.52kg/cm boost bro :) it is an animal :)

2nd gear just blows off the semi slick tires........... its unreal for a road legal 13B rotary set up, fastest most responsive true street set up 3rd gen RX7 I've ever been in. Making 305rwkw in my measure *estimate around 490bhp to maybe 500bhp @ std temp and pressure day* :) which was always an aim of mine.

90-140 test though not official time as VBOX battery gave up! *though it recorded the distance* was 85m. ~ 2.62 seconds. as a comparo 2.76 sec time covered in 88m and 2.82 sec time takes 90m. So its there ! on the ECU data speed sensor it shows ~2.5 seconds but this does not take into account wheel slip but its def legit......

Boost
130kpa (around 18.85psi) = 4400rpm
145kpa (around 21psi) = 5000rpm
144kpa held to 8000rpm

AFR around 11.3:1
RRWEP110 set to 3.5 turns
EGT 928 deg C and 930 deg C max

Hope to have some graphs up sooner rather than later, but all this would NOT BE POSSIBLE without the power of WATER INJECTION!!!! Over 100 hours on this engine and its perfect too ;)

RICE RACING

06-12-2010, 01:18 AM

Here is the finished camera mount got the position good same as what I had it before I think, she works great.

http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6901/img2294camera.jpg

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/7316/img2289camera.jpg

We are organizing/negotiating an air strip for some "official testing" ;) will feature a video and FULL VBOX3i report soon.

RICE RACING

06-12-2010, 12:42 PM

Are you ready for the results c*nts :)

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1124981&stc=1&d=1272234182

"Here's the raw Excel data for the fastest 60 to 130 in 9.4 seconds. Do not use data before 60 mph or after 130 mph since I may let up before or after that.

I weighed the car right after the runs:

2,917 lbs (1323kg) without driver
3,113 lbs (1412kg!) with driver " (note 478bhp rated motor)

Car does 60mph to 85mph in ~2.10 seconds compared to RICESP 2.23 seconds :) *I need to turn the boost up just a little* ~5k to 7krpm for both vehicles. I estimate my thing has around ~440bhp on ~17psi setting, aiming for honest ~500 honest bhp on 1.5bar boost setting, which should achieve the goal of matching/beating? the F40. My power figure average for the SP is ~270rwkw on my VBOX measure (going off my experience * 1.2 = engine power = ~435bhp)

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1124983&stc=1&d=1272234182

60mph to 85mph now is .......................... 2.11 seconds basically exactly equal to the USA F40 for which I have a VBOX test from an owner *above*Though his was on a small down hill gradient (so artificially fast in my book).
100-140kmh is 2.10 seconds 70.36 meters (EURO F40 apparently does 2.0 seconds and 67.60 meters but have only ever found one magazine test on that, fastest one ever recorded too btw) listed earlier on.

Basically It's allot faster than the all but one of the Ferrari F40's listed *euro F40 Italian test, probably a boosted up special lol* (USA ones tested by Road and Track I obliterate in same rpm speed tests.)

I have a video of it and will do up a VBOX report showing the boost, back pressure, EGT, Turbine speed, and all the shit I do...... its a very impressive car for what it is. Hiring an air port not far from me for some high speed testing and full performance review. If you compare it to the Domar Jap 500ps cars that cant char the semi slicks as hard as mine nor accelerate no where near as quickly its even more impressive. I love it.

RICE RACING

06-12-2010, 02:57 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2YVuJg4rSg

^ Here is the video, I am so happy with it, its as fast or faster than every Ferrari F40 I have on file (bare one test), faster than a Pagani Zonda (VBOX file of that one!).

RICE RACING

09-12-2010, 02:12 PM

Get On It :-Oc==3

RICE RACING

11-12-2010, 02:14 AM

Here is the graph showing some detail of various parameters & performance. Average figures between test lines shown (Avg-b) *report screen* and peak on datum line of graph in top left box snapshot of instant Graph data figures at that point.

http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/7431/15kgboosttesttest.jpg

Richard L

11-12-2010, 09:16 AM

It is always interesting to see your work. Keep it up.

RICE RACING

11-12-2010, 10:48 AM

It is always interesting to see your work. Keep it up.

Thank you very much to you ;) for giving us a dedicated platform to share knowledge & enthusiasm for H2O... so everyone can learn from our fore fathers who pioneered water injection, showing its unrivaled abilities to make copious amounts of power along with durability combined :)

Richard L

11-12-2010, 12:27 PM

Not at all. This is not a busy forum but do have a great deal of knowledge people around to spread the merit of WI.

RICE RACING

11-12-2010, 02:22 PM

RICE RACING

18-12-2010, 04:38 AM

New record for my little cat equipped road going RX7 100kmh to 200kmh of 7.53 seconds!

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/930/100kmto200km100kmto200k.jpg

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5983/airstrip.jpg

RICE RACING

18-12-2010, 04:49 AM

I'll post up some other incremental times of the F40, I have 3 separate tests (one factory) two independent (USA and UERO models) and on peak power band test 60mph to 90mph and 70mph to 90mph I have ........

(Peak power band for all cars)

60mph-90mph
EURO F40 = 2.70 seconds
USA F40 = 2.90 seconds
RICESP = 2.59 seconds

70mph-90mph
EURO F40 = 1.90 seconds
USA F40 = 2.10 seconds
RICESP = 1.76 seconds

^ back this up with 2.56 and 1.73 seconds (on a quite damp track too *pictured*), will go enjoy myself over summer here and once weather is favorable & cooler will come back with what she really can do :) Have a Merry Christmas everyone.... ask Santa (Richard!) for some Water Injection Ho Ho HO!!!!

RICE RACING

18-12-2010, 08:00 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqvaMTJZn8k

video of 100kmh to 200kmh testing.

RICE RACING

22-12-2010, 09:14 AM

I have been into rotaries since 1992 (bought my first RX7) and in all that time I can say I have not till now felt content with a car and its set up. After taking the beast out for a drive now I cant do the typed word justice in trying to express how fucking awesome it is to have a quiet nice to drive rotary, that behaves beautifully, drives nice, and is fuel efficient and able to be filled up anywhere and driven over 900km on a single tank of fuel It's a top long distance touring machine, something you just don't seen anymore with poofter fueled (E85 shitbox's) and rampant excuse machines that never do anything or go anywhere, except on tow trucks or trailers to the pusher (I mean workshop) for a undercover rebuild between BS dyno sheet postings or $10 plastic trophy battles of glory !

It's not the most powerful car I have owned, nor by any stretch the fastest I have been tuned or developed for customers, but its by far the best all round package. It's smooth as silk, and one brief step of the pedal away its an animal all in one set up, the video's just don't do it justice as to how the nose lifts when you stand on the throttle in 3rd gear and at such low rpm......... and the sweeeeeeeet rotary noise through the SMB exhaust is sex.

Anyone who does not get to feel the rotary enjoyment all I can tell you is that if you work at it (never give up) and put in half as much work as I have you too can feel the love

RICE RACING

29-12-2010, 12:01 AM

RICESP does 8500rpm limiter in 5th gear = 329kph or ~205mph+
100kmh to 200kmh in 7.53 seconds as a comparison to these cars below

HI EVERYBODY,
i found a nice comparison between some of the Fastest Extreme Sport Cars made, i though it would have been nice to post the results obtained in this Test:

SPEEDS
100kM/H = 62mph
200kM/H = 124mph
250kM/H = 155mph
300kM/H = 186mph

Dodge Viper SRT-10 506hp V10
0-100km/h 4.0s
0-200km/h 13.8s
0-250km/h 24.3s
0-300km/h failed
TOPSPEED 298km/h (185mph)

=

Porsche 997 Turbo 480hp flat6
0-100km/h 3.7s
0-200km/h 12.3s
0-250km/h 20.7s
0-300km/h 40.7s
TOPSPEED 310km/h (192mph)

==

Corvette Z06 513hp V8
0-100km/h 3.8s
0-200km/h 11.9s
0-250km/h 19.0s
0-300km/h 41.8s
TOPSPEED 315km/h (195mph)

===

Aston Martin Vanquish S 528hp V12
0-100km/h 5.3s
0-200km/h 16.5s
0-250km/h 30.4s
0-300km/h 57.1s
TOPSPEED 317km/h (196mph)

====

Mercedes SLR McLaren 626hp V8
0-100km/h 3.8s
0-200km/h 11.2s
0-250km/h 18.5s
0-300km/h 36.9s
TOPSPEED 324km/h (201mph)

=====

Ford GT 550hp V8
0-100km/h 3.9s
0-200km/h 12.0s
0-250km/h 19.0s
0-300km/h 33.6s
TOPSPEED 330km/h (205mph)

======

Ferrari 599 GTB 620hp V12
0-100km/h 3.5s
0-200km/h 10.3s
0-250km/h 16.6s
0-300km/h 28.9s
TOPSPEED 335km/h (209mph)

=======

Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 640hp V12
0-100km/ 3.4s
0-200km/h 11.2s
0-250km/h 17.7s
0-300km/h 31.8s
TOPSPEED 340km/h (212mph)

========

Pagani Zonda S 555hp V12
0-100km/h 3.7s
0-200km/h 9.8s
0-250km/h 17.4s
0-300km/h 25.8s
TOPSPEED 345Km/h (215mph)

=========

Koenigsegg CCX 806hp V8
0-100km/h 2.9s
0-200km/h 9.2s
0-250km/h 12.5s
0-300km/h 16.7s
TOPSPEED 395km/h (245mph)

==========

Bugatti Veyron 1001hp W16
0-100km/h 2.6s
0-200km/h 7.4s
0-250km/h 11.4s
0-300km/h 18.2s
TOPSPEED 406km/h (253mph)

RICE RACING

01-01-2011, 11:45 PM

Well have had an unreal holiday break, driving the RICESP around 2000km at the current performance setting.

Took a nice photo of it after a wash in some nice lighting, enjoy....

p.s. The thing is just unreal, its taken almost a year of constant tweaks and refinement but it is all worth it. One of the things I love the best is the economy of it! 20lt of fuel nets me on average around 150km of driving with a lot of full power runs and general cruising mixed in :) it's perfect

http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/7042/img2386bestpicricespbes.jpg

stevieturbo

02-01-2011, 01:33 AM

Keonigsegg and Veyron really are animals !!

RICE RACING

03-01-2011, 03:09 AM

Done a bit more fine tuning :)
Few mapping changes and delivery rate tweaks, brought down the charge temperature and increased the power at the same boost setting as a result..... It is an Animal.

thefalls

06-01-2011, 08:47 PM

Car sounds very good,and damn its fast!

RICE RACING

08-01-2011, 01:03 AM

Car sounds very good,and damn its fast!

Thanks :)

It's even faster than in the video at the new settings (boost up, charge temp lower, WI rate up!)... gotta keep some stuff to myself though ;) shared enough older information which others can freely copy.

Totally amazing how much performance you can get out of these things!, despite all my years doing this it still does shock me each time you get into it, especially realizing just how normal all the parts are at the end of the day and that it is a true road going fairly heavy set up.

RICE RACING

16-01-2011, 09:44 AM

Latest testing:

Have reduced charge temperature in same conditions by over 15deg C, with parallel performance increase this gives (due to charge density improvement), combined with nice reduction in exhaust gas temperature.

Starting to reach practical limits of traction in 3rd gear though *sub 100mph* !!! (in straight line testing)
I am so impressed with just how fast and powerful the Water Injection is allowing, everything is impressive even for a seasoned veteran like me, but the durability is the best bit, well maybe a close second to the warp speed and tire shredding ability :)

Such small refinements, stuff that most would maybe overlook and continual testing giving big elevations in performance along with better operation of the engine, not trying to overstate it but not something I'd underplay either............ really the more time you put into the calibration the better the results you will see, just when you think that is enough, you find another level of performance, it is unreal what you can do with WI ;)

RICE RACING

26-01-2011, 02:45 PM

My New dash board

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/4626/lotus98t5barboostbrosen.jpg

Nah seriously, it's just a random picture I got of a Lotus 98T (proper F1 car) 1986 unlimited boost era, you can see the EGT label printed up on dash under the digital display showing max of 1120 deg C and air inlet temp of 60 deg C and water temp 90 deg C....

During qualifying they took off the waste gates and replaced them with covers, Water Injected! and Water Spray on intercoolers :)

58psi+ boost and more watch it here > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dWLhhTto00&feature=related what 1300+bhp worth of water injection and maximum qualify boost looks like!

RICE RACING

03-02-2011, 09:24 PM

I will attend a local car show with dyno competition being held next weekend, will be interesting to see what it shows on this particular rolling road v's my measures. Have not changed too many things since the final performance tests, though it is very quick and the on board power measure and times are the highest and fastest I've ever recorded at this basic boost setting. I'll run it as is and resist tweaking anything else so I can get a good comparison.

RICE RACING

06-02-2011, 05:36 AM

More development and fine tuning. Same boost getting ready for next step, proved reliability at this 1.5kg/cm setting or 140kpa gauge boost.

90-140kmh test standard.
2.51 seconds!

Would achieve 2.4x second range as last 130kmh to 140kmh zone was a little too much in the fuel setting for this qty of water injection. This is quick for a true rotary road car set up.

After the coming show will do long term testing on the 1.7kg/cm or 170kpa boost level and post up the comparison results free time pending :)

RICE RACING

12-02-2011, 10:43 AM

Show update:

The dyno was drowned by water (ironic) hahaha, there was flash flooding in Melbourne and Mikes dyno was under a foot of water!.... insurance job and thus non attendance to show.

Anyway went there and displayed the car, got a large & constant crowd of people who have seen it on the roads and some who were passed at warp speed! and were fascinated to see it was water injected. Was fielding inquiries and answering question non stop for about 3 hours! The 500+bhp has spoken for itself in the last year, leaving quite an impression :) judging by how many people were coming to see what was under the bonnet.

Drove down to the ocean for some lunch and left a couple of Porsche 997GT2 owners totally humiliated in the wake of the mighty turbo rotary after a little challenge *they started it, I FINISHED IT!* on the highway :) The overall power is just amazing from 4000rpm to 8500rpm in any gear!. I'm yet to be beaten by anything out on the highway, most just hide after a little "test", not saying its the worlds quickest thing, but fuck me it hauls!, and no excuses either, just jump in drive it & power when and where its needed, no excuses, no poofter mad max ethanol drums required, unlike some!!!! ;)

RICE RACING

20-02-2011, 10:00 AM

Thanks Richard :smile:

I really have my heart set on it sitting on a steady 1.2 bar or 17.5psi inlet manifold pressure and when the weather cools down here maybe try 1.4bar ~20psi, I will update the VBOX3i testing figures once I get my hands on the methanol and mix up a batch. All levels I have run before in my old cars and in customers ones........ just being too cautious in this one for some reason.

Tested the compression of the engine after 1800km and its good for a rotary at around ~122psi @ 250rpm (front and rear rotor same) cranking speed. Will keep an eye over this long term.

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/9986/img1624comp1800kmfr.jpg

I changed the porting specification to give the engine much more mid range power and not concentrate on top end power so much, it is quite fast on road despite relative low levels of peak power. I am projecting it will have a honest 480bhp to 500bhp (at the higher 1.4 boost setting) but will see what happens when I get around to testing this.

So a full year on and covered another 6000km (to date: all up 8200km) of testing/racing/top speed trials.
Summary: Every drive has been quite high load 90-140 testing probably around 400 or so of these tests, many 100-200kmh & 60-130mph runs (3rd to top of 4th gear) and a few top speed runs (on special test track :)). Last 3000km at ~500bhp level @ 1.53kg/cm Boost level.

I did one intermediate compression test between the 1800km and this one today, but only wrote those figures down rather than taking a photo/proof. They were close to the ones today.

Rear Rotor
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=104&stc=1&d=1298191592

Front Rotor
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=105&stc=1&d=1298191697

This test was fully dry (engine run till out of fuel) and EGI disconnected, First one cant remember but I think was not as "empty" of excess fluid, this makes a high difference to rotary engine compression readings FYI.

Anyway she is not too bad, I did not think it would hold up this good especially given its a mobile test bed each and every single time it gets driven.

I have it at its new boost level of 1.7bar (around 1.75kg/cm) and it is a rocket :) see if she can make another year of punishment :)

Richard L

20-02-2011, 10:40 AM

Peter, instead of flicking back on all the pages, what is your best 1/4 mile time on street tyre, despite you are not a full time drag racer.

All the other rolling logs are amazing.

RICE RACING

20-02-2011, 10:54 AM

Peter, instead of flicking back on all the pages, what is your best 1/4 mile time on street tyre, despite you are not a full time drag racer.

All the other rolling logs are amazing.

Hi Richard,

I am yet to do a "formal" test on that, last "legal" opportunity was a wet run way and I can't get to borrow it that often :( on that occasion I focused on the 60-130mph measures and some durability testing.

I'll have to get back out there and do an old school 1/4 mile test and terminal velocity test at the end of that distance, probably wait for some favorable weather (cool dense air) to get some nice Hollywood numbers :) I want to go back and record a 6 second range 100kmh to 200kmh time on the new high boost setting I read back through all the posts and see a common theme of ever changing "I'll be happy with XYZ" and each time it just gets higher and higher.

Been a great project, and learned so much about WI and integration with other elements in the engine to make it all work. Allot of the data collection I am going to use in a course for my students next year....... as you know nothing better than testing all of it yourself and even better when you can prove it to work as we have ;)

Richard L

20-02-2011, 11:22 AM

A project like this is highly entertaining and rewarding especially as each little mystery is uncovered, enabling you to extract more and more power safely with water injection.

RICE RACING

26-02-2011, 11:09 AM

Finished the tests with the OEM based inductive ignition, been good to work with it for a while to find exact limits of it with regards to water injection usage. Have fitted up a new specification Capacitive Discharge Ignition and it is like night and day difference in power, response, and engine running...... whole new world of options for setting the engine to make the most of water injection.

Where it is now is like its base. So far in only last couple of days I have been able to implement a whole new strategy for setting of the water injection system, to the benefit of the charge temperature, also showing a noticeable increase in performance :) Have a whole lot of tests scheduled over the next couple of months. Car is a total addiction :) it's better than any heroin hit, get massive withdrawals if I don't drive it every week, the performance is flat out gag factor! I have to be real careful each time I drive it though the speed attainable (you need to remember its so easily accessed being a true road car!) reaches high levels. See this for some context! > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmFTy6KCDLw&feature=related and remember RICESP in its ~20psi guise is already faster than this all time legend ;)

RICE RACING

05-03-2011, 06:57 AM

Here is pics of the RR COP CD system mounted up (CDI boxes next to battery on custom holder), wiring harness and COP's installed.

Few bugs from extensive real world testing on the front! they stand no chance at "moderate" speeds :)

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9753/img2502cdisystem.jpg

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5373/img2497cdisystem.jpg

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/8711/img2500cdisystem.jpg

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7416/img2501cdisystem.jpg

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3152/img2524cdisystem.jpg

http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/4651/img2517cdisystem.jpg

thefalls

05-03-2011, 09:50 PM

The engine bay is awesome as usual!
Very very clean.

RICE RACING

06-03-2011, 01:47 AM

Well its official CD ignition totally rapes inductive.

This morning I set a new record for the 90-140kmh test of 2.48 seconds, going on a small incline as well :) this test was non ideal in the fact that the car is still learning the new boost setting so it was lacking some mid range boost which is critical for this test.

Of much more importance though is the fact that on the CD ignition I can run the engine properly the way I want and not the way the ign system wants or allows me to do. This is very important for control of charge temperature and EGT also.

I can't divulge the exact figures (as too many copy cats!) I'll let them try to make a living off my old discarded info :o13: while I will continue to test and show first hand long term how fucking good water injection is for rotaries and REAL STREET CARS! (still on petrol, and full quiet catalyst exhaust system!)

RICE RACING

06-03-2011, 10:38 AM

I'll post up some other incremental times of the F40, I have 3 separate tests (one factory) two independent (USA and UERO models) and on peak power band test 60mph to 90mph and 70mph to 90mph I have ........

(Peak power band for all cars)

60mph-90mph
EURO F40 = 2.70 seconds
USA F40 = 2.90 seconds
RICESP = 2.59 seconds

70mph-90mph
EURO F40 = 1.90 seconds
USA F40 = 2.10 seconds
RICESP = 1.76 seconds

New Figures for the last test compared to the Ferrari F40.

60mph-90mph
RICESP = 2.42 seconds

70mph-90mph
RICESP = 1.64 seconds

I still have some fine tuning to do and a couple more little tricks up my sleeve :) then will organize another test to do a new 100kmh to 200kmh figure :)

RICE RACING

13-03-2011, 02:09 AM

:) HIGH BOOST BRO! RRWEP110 Water Injected. :)

~30psi on pump petrol and water injected

http://img852.imageshack.us/img852/9722/img2549boostitbro.jpg

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1116/img2545boostitbro.jpg

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/7263/img2536boostitbro.jpg

RICE RACING

18-03-2011, 03:40 AM

To give this comparison test some context:
RICESP (stock std 13B-REW engine, full catalyst exhaust, T04 type turbo, plumb back waste gate, small standard inter cooler 1310kg)
*fully compliant genuine road car*

ND4SPD (Cosmo 13B, full bridge port, T51 type turbo charger, large front mounted inter cooler, gutted exhaust, open waste gate pipe 1250kg)
*quasi race car!*

I did some very interesting comparisons to ND4SPD (Mazda Capella I tuned with RRWEP110 WI) V's RICESP via the immense analysis power of the VBOX :)

I'll list up some comparison results: About the total FALLACY of " typical dyno sheets"! v's real world power and times taken for vehicles to actually do "work" with known levels of weight/mass!!!

This car makes on a dynohomodynamics ~390rwkw on 19psi boost (full bridge port & T51 turbo 1250kg as run at race track) where we got these recordings. You will see RICESP at 1310kg run weight is just as powerful (real rwkw! power as measured by me via VBOX!) and its just as fast in peak power band too (what really matters at the end of the day rather than poofter dyno sheet comparisons)

This report is of ND4SPD in its peak power band (6000rpm to 8200rpm) = 110kph to 150kph in 3rd gear on 19psi boost (VBOX measure = ~310rwkw owner has sheets of 380 to 390rwkw on homo dynamics guess machine)
ND4SPD = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.07 seconds
http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/4669/capellawakefiledparkrun.jpg

This report shows RICESP and the first one is a FC RX7 fitted with a bridge port 13B running 15psi boost and a GT35 turbo lol (you can see I am twice as fast as it lol 4.43 seconds V's 2.06 seconds!) This car apparently makes 270rwkw dynohomodynaimcs @ 16psi boost LOL! You can see these dyno figures are not worth pissing on in the REAL WORLD! and are vastly overstated from what the cars actually makes when you apply real physics to them!!!
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/2466/donmega1.jpg

And the other result table is at full boost when I tuned it (ND4SPD) on road just before setting national dyno record http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm < *read customer testimonial* (which to this day still stands!) for the only ever 13B rotary to lay down 3 back to back power runs of this level and still be able to drive home :) on pump petrol :)
Boost, EGT, RPM, AFR sensors fitted in this tuning session.
RICESP = 110kmh to 150kmh = 2.06 seconds
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/207/comparisongraph2222.jpg

My RX7 is pretty quick I think you will all agree :) and this is still not sharing the current state of high power tune :) *I'll save that for another day*

RICE RACING

19-03-2011, 02:27 AM

A project like this is highly entertaining and rewarding especially as each little mystery is uncovered, enabling you to extract more and more power safely with water injection.

Yes, Yes it is Richard :)

I need to say again none of this is possible without the water injection, that is the key element and common thread to all of my own and my customers victories over un reliability and general limitations when running commonly available real petrol (or even racing fuels for that matter!).

Typed words can't do the VBOX analysis and seat of the pants feelings justice... people really need to go in a properly set up water injected car and better yet live with one for a few months to get the full experience of being able to drive around a normal car, fill it up anywhere you wish (on any fuel grade available) and to still experience the full power a turbocharger can physically produce without excuse or qualification or fear of engine or turbo melt down is what separates the wannabe's and MAD MAX fuel drum couriers from the real men who have worked out how to make full power on normal gasoline/petrol. The ones who can drive their cars anywhere, anytime, and enjoy them from the ones who need to fund endless rebuilds and extortion type prices for "race fuel" to make their turbo charged cars perform anywhere near their full potential.

I openly laugh at people who are trying to address issues of "not enough cooling" by positioning random injectors (extra ones) to cool down their charge or any such other garbage to stop their engines from turning to rubbish every few minutes of use :) those types just have NO IDEA! No education in engineering, and worse still far too much arrogance to accept that Water Injection solved all of these problems nearly 100 years ago now.

In a way its good that people are so stupid you know, it means that the type of world leading performance I obtain and give to smart people will not be common place, and that just means you and I and people like us are the lucky few who get to experience this technology and enjoy it, while the doubters and nay say types will keep on making the same mistakes over and over to their own detriment :) ......... can't say we are hiding the secrets to speed, power and durability, the formula is there if you are open minded enough to follow the leaders :)

RICE RACING

20-03-2011, 02:15 AM

I have some even more telling comparison reports which I should get around to posting up here for all interested.

It collates:

A) 36psi ~3.2lt OLD Holden "202" 1070kg Lenco 5 speed clutch less shift drag car *6.6 seconds @ 110mph in 1/8th mile*

B) ND4SPD 600rwhp 2.6lt 13B Cosmo powered Capella on 27psi boost

C) RICESP 1310kg on ~21psi full street trim set up basically a perfectly tuned and set up standard vehicle!!! :)

All three cars accelerating as hard as possible from speed increment 100kmh to 150kmh, some would be shocked to see who is fastest and takes the least distance to do it.... :) :) :) All data logged by me with the VBOX 3i all logged AFR, boost pressures, times, speeds and vehicle mass and all in their happy environments and running at maximum potentials, no excuses (lack of traction bro, missed shift bro, no C16 bro!!!), no BS, just pure hard core facts and testing from the Don of reality V's FICTION (other internet ranters who have no cars, no testing equipment, no qualifications!) ;)

Lots (too much) absolute BS! spread about the internets in the rotary world about the POWER of bridge ports and boost response blah blah blah, I single handed disprove ALL of the garbage talk with my own stock std engined car, running a fully legal set up too! .......... it would be really funny if it were not so disturbing of the number of people who listen to random unqualified advise off forums across the world without ever asking for proof like I have managed to collect on the merits of various set ups and their ACTUAL RESULTS!. Oh well I suppose that is what happens when people listen to clowns who got their qualifications from the internet or a corflakes packet rather than a legitimate school or real world experience and properly backed up testing! :)

RICE RACING

20-03-2011, 04:45 AM

RICE RACING

20-03-2011, 10:41 AM

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6427/dragcarvricespit.jpg

So here is a report showing a mates drag car v RICESP
RICESP = 2.57 seconds (just in one gear, great show of power band)
Simon Ward = 2.64 & 2.69 seconds (high power at start of test, then less grunt shows up at higher speed, gear)
Drag car specs:
3.3lt Holden 202 (very old school set up!)
5 speed Lenco clutchless shift gearbox
1007kg car (1077kg as run in this test)
35psi boost (see logging)
Ran 6.75 @ 107mph 1/8th mile goat track in this VBOX file at night (won the event lol) *2 back to back runs*

RICESP: is the 2.48second 90-140 test std (3 gear acceleration test)
1310kg run weight Specs listed many times already!

Here is a pictures of the car. Bloke is a local legend, basically wins against all comers (I'm serious) has been running at that track for 30 years! Oh and his beast is water injected too :hurray:

I helped him jet the carburetors and set the ignition timing on it till it got as fast as it would run Via the VBOX logging, this was done during the event and these final two runs are back to back from the evening finals (night runs interesting with no head lights and poor track lighting lol!@!! (have no mph boards at local Goat track! so VBOX is invaluable! Tim cards work but run faster at track due to roll out ghetto timing lights common to ALL Drag tracks, VBOX shows slower times (depends on how deep you stage!) always as its recording exact start & not guessing like light beam bullshit!) ;) he was amazed with what "modern technology can do" BTW it has no wastegate so the boost is max it will run!!!

http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/5103/gemi2.jpg

http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/479/gemif.jpg

RICE RACING

21-03-2011, 12:09 PM

This is another interesting comparison: From my collection of VBOX tests http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm
90kmh to 135kmh (best power gearing for the stock RX7) see rpm logging.

RICESP V Spirit R Type A (stock standard)

Car specs:
Spirit R Type A
1335kg as run
280PS factory rated engine (100% stock std no mods at all)
Car ran 0-100kmh in 5.55 seconds & 13.85 second @ 104.78mph RR V-BOX Recorded for 1/4 mile *no roll out*
Time = 5.06 seconds & 158 meters

RICESP:
~21psi Rice Racing Engineered Water Injected Monster :)
1310kg as run
Power is over double a factory RX7 (see actual VBOX RR rwkw measure) so roughly double the power, double the acceleration & half the time required to do it and distance as well :)
Time = 2.21 seconds & 69 meters

VBOX File report
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/7387/ricespvspirtrrtypeastoc.jpg

Richard L

21-03-2011, 04:38 PM

Pete,

I am not sure why your images doesn't come through. I don't known how to re-configure the image limit settings. Perhaps if you sign in with another name such as RiceRacing2 etc, you might be able to post more images.

RICE RACING

21-03-2011, 07:58 PM

Pete, you are homosexual with your linked images not working

Done!, Internets is gay :) but we fixed it I hope :)

RICE RACING

24-03-2011, 11:02 AM

Here is the 3 rd gear acceleration of the stock RX7 SP, tested by Motor Magazine with Correvit digital timing.

RX7SP stock 1995 test
204kw
276bhp claimed power factory rated engine (100% stock std no mods at all)

100kmh = 0 sec
110kmh = 0.87 sec
120kmh = 1.83 sec
130kmh = 2.84 sec
140kmh = 4.58 sec

RICESP
You guess the power :)

100kmh = 0 sec
110kmh = 0.51 sec
120kmh = 0.99 sec
130kmh = 1.51 sec
140kmh = 2.01 sec

http://www.ausrotary.com/images/reference/rx7sp/motor/motor9e.jpg

RICE RACING

25-03-2011, 12:12 AM

I just found 2 original issues of Wheels Magazine from 1996 where they do a Top Speed shootout of Australia's Fastest Cars. They are on their way to me :) when I get them will scan the full article and put it up.

Features my two fav cars of all time Mazda RX7SP and the Ferrari F40 :) and a whole heap of other vastly inferior cars :) They also feature acceleration tests too :) and I will post up some more comparisons :)

Richard L

28-03-2011, 12:33 PM

Wonderful write up on the aussie racing scenes. Very exciting atomsphere.

RICE RACING

10-04-2011, 06:48 AM

Magazines arrived :) and keeping on that topic I got given an original!!! "Rotary Engine" by Kenichi Yamamoto published by Toyo Kogyo in 1971 :) :) :) a work mate found it in our library and thought it appropriate it went to a good home. < Super rare book, last one I seen on E-Gay went for like $375 or so.

Anyway, been flat out catching up with customer orders and car work, so apart from brief test drives on Sundays (1 hr of week where I can scratch my balls) not much opportunity to do a serious test.

I'll get around to scanning the F40 and stock SP test and also post up some performance data of the new specification which I have been putting through durability trials the last few months... Only problem I have encountered (well not really a problem as such) is the normal operating torque capacity of the twin plate carbon clutch. When the friction material is below a certain temperature it will only hold around 600Nm :) :) :) it needs some use to (higher face temperature) to hold over 700Nm (maximum tq rating).... I will have to start limiting the boost pressure (and power) @ lower engine speeds to hold the immense amount of mid range power/torque the water injection allows the rotary engine to make :) :) :)

Grant M

11-04-2011, 10:15 PM

Hi Peter its Grant from MRC, thought i would take your advice and get signed up on here and start feeding off the WI knowledge that is on here.

Are the coils you use for motorbike applications?

RICE RACING

13-04-2011, 09:23 AM

Hi Peter its Grant from MRC, thought i would take your advice and get signed up on here and start feeding off the WI knowledge that is on here.

Are the coils you use for motorbike applications?

The site Richard has created here is the BEST forum based resource for water injection, the quality of posts and people who contribute far exceeds to quantity you will get in other places, so make yourself at home and search around across all of the sub forums, you will find a mountain of information.

The coils I use are made by Dynatek and they are predominantly used on motorbikes, snow mobiles, water craft, etc. My experience here again has been copied allot across the world and as such you get quite a few people now gagging over the Dynatek CDI's and their coils.... it again is but one of the many products I trial and am happy to pass on my experience for everyone else to benefit from :)

Grant M

13-04-2011, 10:31 PM

Don't worry about me copying your design as I will be sticking to the DlI system for some time until I can afford something as spectacular.

I have found the thread on pre turbo injection. I have read all of the first 20 pages only another twenty to go!!!!!!

What are your thoughts on this? Obviously I see that you point your WI nozzle at the centre nut if you turbo bur is there an ideal distance for this so that any slight large water droplets don't hit the fast moving outside edge of the inducer?

Also tour air feeds in from the side from your cold air antake box, does the incoming air not essentially push the water flow from the centre of the wheel to slightly off centre?

Grant M

13-04-2011, 10:37 PM

At what PSI do you start injecting your water? As a few of the guys don't inject until high revs high load(psi) by high I mean after 10 psi and upwards although I don't think that this is too high.

I am also debating as to wether to use an intercooler on my car but I mainly think I should as it will be a road car and if I'm cruising on the motorway off boost then I wouldn't have any WI cooling effects if I was using your boost switched WI?

I think I have just answered my own question haven't I?

Removing the intercooler would only be good if it was a drag car only so as to reduce the lag created by the intercooler.

RICE RACING

14-04-2011, 12:06 AM

They are all good questions and all I can tell you is my own findings, keep in mind I am only one person, you will get lots of other experience and opinions etc from others.

In my system I run a pressurised air feed system, its totally sealed and rams air into the turbocharger helping its efficiency at any speed especially over 80kph (its ram air feed is located in the nose of the car) *pic's earlier on in the thread* This increased compressor flows at moderate to high vehicle speeds. SO far as my air feeds its a theory I applied to pre swirl the air into the feed of the turbo mouth, it works well. For the injector placement genearlly the further away the better it is, it just depends on your vehicle instal and what you can do in the room you have. Heaps of fitment locations do work *you can see my web site for all kinds of examples*

On the topic of intercoolers, I have ALWAYS run them, the combination of the two systems seems to work best especially when you factor in total system fluid use you would need to run to repliacte the mass air flow into the engine without running one, thus I recommend to people to use a mid sized intercooler and piping, the lag induced by such a system in minimal V's the positive mass flow increase due to improved charge density increase it offers, and the amount of WI you need to use is what I would class as NORMAL as an added benefit. This is very important when you are talking using WM50 boost fluid as you can still keep conventional tuning settings and most importantly ability to switch from WM50 back to pure water (for competitions that require you to only use water) or if simply for availability or lack there of. You WONT be able to do this if you run no Intercooler due to the qty of fluid you will need to run. So the system overal is not as flexible. My philosophy is to make a system that is easy and adaptable to any reasonable environmental condition or sitation a driver will face in the real world. I'm sure you could do it in any extreme you wish to explore, remember mine is but one solution that works for me and most peoples situations.

I run water injection from 8psi onwards, the engines just run much better on water injection than without, the point at which I turn it on is not so much arbitrary but a consideration of atomization quality and also total fluid use and a variety of other factors to do with tuning and so on which I dont care to elaborate on too much in a public forum which over 12,000 stalkers have kept up to speed with to date lol. Though I think this is enough information for you and others to read :)

RICE RACING

17-04-2011, 10:33 AM

Got Wing !

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/2864/img2622spdon.jpg

RICE RACING

17-04-2011, 10:40 AM

Current engine bay set up with Capacitive Discharge ignition system, been running 1.8bar boost last few weeks.

http://img816.imageshack.us/img816/2852/img2594spdon.jpg

Grant M

17-04-2011, 01:47 PM

Looking good Peter.

What size is the inlet on your turbo?

I will email you privately soon as I want to order a WI system from you. : )

Would you be willing to share the dimensions of the WI mounting you have as I want to try something similar in my rx4 as I will hopefully have an Abundance of space for a proper air filter system.

I will understand if you tell me to stick it where the sun dint shine though. Cheers.

Car still looking good. How much rubber are you going through on 1.8 bar?!!!!

RICE RACING

17-04-2011, 10:19 PM

4" inlet on the turbo.

You get the full specs on the tank when you get the kit :), I'm more than happy to talk to you over E-Mail when your ready not a problem at all.

The rear tires are 255 wide good street tires, they do get pretty shredded in 2nd gear so I leave the traction control on to limit tire wear, 3rd gear now they are having a hard time also, but generally now I just leave the car in 4th gear (from 80kph to ~240kph) it has more than enough torque *red spread of power* to pin you back at any revs/speed, using third to overtake is pointless as its over in less than 2 seconds and you are either about to fly off the highway! or literally drill into the back of another car :) ............ it's a great little car !!!!

RICE RACING

22-04-2011, 05:16 AM

Get On It!

:-Oc==3

RICE RACING

25-04-2011, 02:58 AM

She has passed the 1.8kg/cm durability tests with flying colors :) & the performance is amazing. We have the new settings at 2.10kg/cm (over 2 bar gauge, 300kpa ABS, 30+psi in the old money)..... there is still plenty of margin left in the set up to run 2.5kg/cm in street trim but as before will run at the intermediate step to prove it rather than do a one off power pull BS type sheet posting as is the norm among most kiddies shops or internet experts ;)

The acceleration is gag factor to the max! it's not scary but I tell you it does make your arsehole pulsate in mild fear if you have not sampled this kind of thing recently.......... :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) !!!!!!!!!!!

thefalls

25-04-2011, 04:07 PM

This just keeps on getting better and better!

Very nice car and that engine bay stays like new always!!!!

RICE RACING

26-04-2011, 12:31 AM

This just keeps on getting better and better!

Very nice car and that engine bay stays like new always!!!!

Yes it's amazing, what seemed like a limitation a year or two ago today is the new base to work from. It's one of those things though where you do need years to prove the concept like I am doing here (various technical challenges & base line calibrations aside) nothing much in the hardware is exceptionally "different" just very minor settings changes and applying all of my knowledge and experience means I now can have a 13B rotary car in compliant street trim that is faster than many peoples race specials!, all while keeping amazing durability for something that is making such prodigious horsepower :)

I remember reading in one of my text books from my engineering days on the development of BMW's 4cyl turbo F1 motors where Gordon Murray (Brabham/BMW designer at that time) basically said their whole program was in the firing line after a couple of years trying to go turbo, and in the end it was something so small and relatively stupid that either made it work or not (ended up being a simple calibration setting!)...... *Moral there* Lets not forget how miserably Ford Cosworth failed in attempting to make a 4cyl turbo to match BMW's at even half the power let alone 1300+bhp

I have my own little (by comparison) developments, and its all part of the challenge to develop something no one else can and do it on far less, its not the cubic dollars that makes the difference just a great concept (WATER INJECTION) applied well, and set up to achieve what its always shown through history to achieve, the best power, with minimum stress, and all on common parts (be they mechanical *engine* or chemical *fuel*)

Hope it inspires people to follow what Sir Harry Ricardo and other great engineers have bestowed generations ago

thefalls

30-04-2011, 08:58 PM

RICE RACING

01-05-2011, 07:36 AM

I was inspired when i stumbled upon this forum by chance,in fact i was researching a bit on water/meth injection.
Then midway i figured that you are not a trader over here but a real enthusiast...haha!

What you have done so far is truly amazing,hope you will carry on with the good work and keep us scotched to the screen with your achievements!

Will seek some tips later when i get into this.

Thanks very much, I am an enthusiast first and foremost. I have been doing this work for over 20 years now and will NEVER EVER STOP! I'll continue to do it for the next 30 or 40 years :) not sure if the internets or the world will be around that long though.

I have been using RICESP as the daily drive now *till my new tow car arrives!*, as well as weekend cruiser (just came back from a 200km 3+hours scenic lunch drive :) ) the car is flat out amazing in every respect, a true street car but with supercar destroying proven ability :) fast, efficient and reliable. can't wish for any more than that. Next few months will be a bit quiet due to work commitments and using car day to day, but will update anyway as quite a few people keep in touch and want to know how things are. Just on my drive now I saw two of my students, boys were gagging over the Mazda *they are only human!* it once again as I probably have been stating over and over is the ultimate real street car, jump in it drive it anywhere anytime anyplace and not go broke doing so or worry from fear where you can buy E85 or some such other garbage fuel lol..... The power of WATER INJECTION! you just cant beat it! no matter what you read on the internet forums lol

Dust

19-05-2011, 11:55 PM

I have been reading about the nozzle type you are using, and was wondering if the nozzles could be used with a pump feeding the water side, and only boost feeding the air side?

RICE RACING

22-05-2011, 03:30 AM

I have been reading about the nozzle type you are using, and was wondering if the nozzles could be used with a pump feeding the water side, and only boost feeding the air side?

I guess you could do that (I have never tried it). It would defeat the purpose of the system to be "simple" using an electric pump, + you would have to put in allot of work with PWM control of the valve to meter the water in (which is basically self regulating with boost pressure feeding the water). Hope that makes sense to you.

Dust

22-05-2011, 01:34 PM

I was thinking about using my current kit, and using the new nozzles to reduce the micron size for the turbo's ingestion. Don't know how much it would help though.

RICE RACING

13-06-2011, 07:11 AM

Hi Peter its Grant from MRC, thought i would take your advice and get signed up on here and start feeding off the WI knowledge that is on here.

Are the coils you use for motorbike applications?

Hey Grant,

Yes the CDI Coils are Dynatek 0.5ohm units. The CDI boxes are Dynatek ARC-2, everything else is bespoke manufactured to facilitate the use for coil on plug on the 13B. It's very expensive and hard to copy which is why most don't do it even after seeing my pioneering pictures and parts lists I put up :)

They have been faultless!
It's winter time here now and most mornings when I take the car out its -2 deg C or so...... daily driving it last few months to finish of durability trials on all system parts, its covered around another 3000km, colds starts are immaculate, runs on race plugs of normal heat range, and is just perfect really....... as good as any OEM out of the box set up, pretty amazing given it delivers well over 650bhp now!!!!!!! :) :) :)

Have been getting an amazing amount of mail on WI (daily!) and most refer straight back here for people to pick the system that is right for them and also to learn more about the best technology ever invented for the internal combustion engine. Was a dream of mine to share this knowledge one day and that day has well and truly arrived! I suppose you cant deny the power of water injection when you see the results of cars like this and others (across all fields!) that have run it since 1930 :)

RICE RACING

21-08-2011, 07:18 AM

Water Injection - The next level :)

Have been very busy developing and testing more aspects of the water injection rocket that is RICESP :)

Can't divulge exact specifics *sorry* but a "quantum leap" in power is not a bad way to describe it, still on normal petrol and WM50. All same parts as listed to date, same engine untouched in last 2 years! over 12,000km logged on it to date.

The WI system is the same but with calibration changes to suit the very high power output increase over the last lot of shared tests. The only extra's are a change of secondary fuel injectors and fuel pressure changes to feed the engine more pump petrol ........... of which it needs quite allot at maximum rpm and throttle.

Next year will be even more again, But will have to install the upgraded drive line to cope with the immense RICE RACING power!!! Once this is underway I'll release this current specification on here for all to read and benefit from, trust me it is pretty amazing, mind boggling, warp speed, gag factor acceleration!!! all only available due to water injection technology

maxc

21-08-2011, 01:14 PM

Nice "RICE RACING".
All that water ends up turning too "steam" If you start with that first with right flow rates the opposite will happen when consitering power loss with higher humid and temps.

Grant M

07-09-2011, 06:47 PM

CCome on then Peter you tease, what boost are you running now, so much so that your having to replace the gear box!!!

RICE RACING

07-09-2011, 09:55 PM

CCome on then Peter you tease, what boost are you running now, so much so that your having to replace the gear box!!!

In direct drive you can run basically any power you like as you are not using any gears :) so 4th is not a problem, the others can be as you rightly suggest but you just have to limit the power to suit.

I'm busy working on my new project, so once that is a bit further along all of the info on RICESP will be freely available to all to copy :) as always

RICE RACING

03-11-2011, 01:55 PM

Been super flat out last few months to post back here, sorry boys and fans :)

Have some time now (quieter near end of year thankfully!) to work on new things in the Mazda world so RICESP will get some more upgrades and development work, allot to do with new settings on the water injection system, when I get closer I'll post up some pics and new information ;)

RICE RACING

04-12-2011, 07:21 AM

Some more pics of my ride ;)

*Doing some more WI system developments over the next year, RRWEP140 set up tested/installed and ready to go! :)*

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1134/img3608ricespricefj.jpg

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5192/img3665ricespricefj.jpg

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/953/img3650ricespricefj.jpg

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/2979/img3615ricespricefj.jpg

RICE RACING

05-12-2011, 02:55 PM

In preliminary tests of the latest 2012 WI system specification, starting off on lowest boost setting of 1.45bar Intake Air Temperature is around ~35 deg C (~18 deg C ambient test) in 3rd and 4th gear. Exhaust Gas Temperature is around 790 deg C to 800 deg C (around ~70 Deg C drop to previous settings on same boost pressure.

These are noticeable improvements over the last WI settings

Only possible on full CDI ignition system (don't attempt/try this with any inductive crap box system!). Also running a different specification spark plug of higher heat tolerance, to date its working fine in repeated cold start tests and short engine run tests (real world driving) not fouling at all, and burning any ratio you throw at it.

Doing full recalibration to suit the new set up and will test all aspects and post back as time allows :)

RICE RACING

06-12-2011, 04:03 AM

Well well, new settings are showing potential :)

Low Boost setting 20psi or ~1.4bar (3rd gear RR std runs)
90kmh -140kmh = 2.32 seconds ! and 2.33 seconds ! (2 x separate tests)

EGT peak = 880 deg c to 870 deg C

Other info to down load off the ECU but will post it up later........

Car is stupid fast & effortless with new WI strategy, and will only go faster on higher boost settings.
More info (snap shot) added:
RPM 7700rpm
EGT 878 deg C
AIT 36 deg C to 40 deg C
Ambient temp 18~20 deg C
Boost 142kpa 1.45kg or 20.6psi
TIP 18.6psi
TOP 3.3psi
FP 65.8psi
Turbine rpm 107,166rpm
AFR undisclosed
WI undisclosed
Ign timing and split undisclosed
Inj duty 54%

On board power meter showed 379rwkw, car is very quick for a true road car, too fast really to be used properly without tripling any posted speed limits LOL. Anyway its got a great base to finish off the very high power/high boost work I was doing through this and last year, with much more favorable long term operating parameters on the engine and turbocharger. Next stages are back up to 1.80kg boost, 2.00kg, and 2.20kg and 2.45kg, keeping in mind the above is only on ~1.45kg to 1.5kg *waste gate spring minimum setting* :)

Non of this is remotely possible without the power of water injection :) all mind you on a near 3 year old over 20,000km daily driven engine that has NEVER been touched! unlike some who have gone through 100k worth of engines and tunes lol.

RICE RACING

07-12-2011, 12:48 PM

Did some more fine tuning overnight (still to the 1.4bar map) and it is just f7cking retarded how fast it is going!@

90kmh-140kmh in 2.09 seconds and 2.18 seconds!@ Unbelievable !!! < (ECU records not VBOX!)

The new WI settings are really sensitive to overall fuel mixture and spark lead, just by trimming out a few RPM points only to the target AFR it just ignites the little red rocket! and it full on fly's !!! It's pulling over 0.610 G in 3rd gear. Almost do not need the high boost settings :)

Now I have the mapping over RPM 100% sorted at low boost, easy to extrapolate to higher boost settings :) need to sharpen up the reflexes to match the car now, sh7t happens so fast you have to be on it ......... WI never ceases to amaze me, and I thought I knew it all.

RICE RACING

08-12-2011, 05:09 AM

This is my "fuel cooler"

Fuel goes in the bottom fitting, out the top fitting, in my water injection tank is a allow fuel coil, it stabilizes the fuel temperature, after a 30 minute drive the tank is still cold to touch, I have included a log of the fuel temperature on a highlighted 3rd gear 100kmh to 150kmh run in 2.291 seconds! 20 deg C ambient day yesterday at this test run. Fact V's Fiction lol

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/7416/img2501cdisystem.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9753/img2502cdisystem.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/757/id2000lowboosttuned20ps.jpg

RICE RACING

10-12-2011, 04:23 AM

Doing the boost map learning process today on a little test drive, was very hot, official temperature was 27 deg C but it felt more like 30 deg C where I was testing. Anyway at a peak of 1.56bar (1.72kg/cm) boost in 3rd gear @7800rpm it showed 41 deg C ! & 880 deg C EGT....... this is unreal, the car accelerated just as fast as what it did on a 18 to 20 deg C ambient test.

At one point 20 minutes further on opening up the throttle the IAT registered 19 deg C!!! never ever had this before so the new rate of WI is effective and whats more very combustible with big gains in performance and safety factor.

Once the boost is set at the 1.85kg/cm setting across the rpm range I'll re-test at standard temp and pressure day to see how much better it is in like conditions.

RICE RACING

11-12-2011, 02:31 AM

1.85kg/cm or 26.3psi is unbelievable on the new set up :)

3rd gear in dry is unusable, as boost comes on it just overpowers the Kumho KU36 tires, leaving some nice marks down the highway :)

4th gear at higher speeds is just unreal, I have power in the mid range rpm's like what I was using before at peak rpm! it accelerates amazingly well in 4th and 5th gear, in 3rd though full throttle cant be used, either turn on traction control or use lower boost settings.

In the new year I will get some more applicable tires to allow the full power to be used and comparisons to be made to other tests posted up. It is a mega metric arse load of fun fun fun :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

RICE RACING

14-12-2011, 05:43 AM

O.K. Remember pump petrol/gasoline here only ! ***OFFICIAL VBOX test results***

90kmh-140kmh = 2.26 seconds!
100kmh-150kmh = 2.39 seoconds!
100kmh-200kmh = 6.25 seconds!

Still on old tires, and showing about 24psi boost on the VBOX, and ~330rwkw VBOX POWER

Tested at 1320kg run weight and 25 deg C ambient day, still doing boost learning procedure so there is a bit more in at this level and fuel mixture set rich to be on safe side.

Fact V's Fiction

Will put up some VBOX graphs when I get them off the lap dancer top

Here is the graph of the 2.26 second 90-140 test :) this car has a *massive* power band, not normally seen on genuine 13B road cars of this level of performance and speed!@ the word "response" does not do it justice! It builds one bar of boost at around 3400rpm in a transient test, and near its maximum boost setting well before 4600rpm and it does it even in the low gears which only take a second or two for 8000rpm, its fantastic..... best road car set up ever !@
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1341/226secvbox.jpg

Richard L

14-12-2011, 09:09 AM

As always, your performance tests are relentless and very informative.

RICE RACING

14-12-2011, 11:18 AM

As always, your performance tests are relentless and very informative.

Can only try to emulate the great work you did posting on that 760rwhp WI Skyline Richard ;)

My car is getting too much for "regular testing" and it has exceeded the capacity of true street radials of normal tread wear 180 rating. I have some better 100 rating tires of a bit larger width on their way. Then I can look to do some more tests on the power of water injection in the new year....... till then I think I have deserved a well earned Christmas break :) and RICESP will be on "smut cruise" duties down the Beach over summer :)

RICE RACING

20-12-2011, 06:33 AM

"Got Grip C*nts" Ho Ho Ho Merry Christmas!

275/40/R17 Toyo R888 GG compound

Fits like a finger in a bum.... :)

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/3489/img3677gotgripcunts.jpg

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/3559/img3693gotgripcunts.jpg

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8901/img3687gotgripcunts.jpg

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/311/img3682gotgripcunts.jpg

Grant M

21-12-2011, 11:01 PM

RICE RACING

22-12-2011, 12:11 AM

looking good peter. should see those acceleration tests come down a few tenths with all that grip.

Can your WI system be used on any ECU?

Do you think you will keep increasing the boost pressure? or are you going to stop at a set amount? or is down to when you start breaking things, as always happens when gaining in HP.

Hey Mate,

My WI system can be driven off any ECU that has a PWM table and switching conditions table settings (or you can use it stand alone obviously).

I did a quick test yesterday after recalibration of my MAP sensor to match the Blitz I Color and on board internal MAP sensor in the ECU. Had to re tune the car! but basically on 180kpa gauge ~ 280kpa absolute (26.3psi or 1.85kg/cm) its accelerating harder & faster than ever before! its just unreal to me......... the thing that really gets me is I have a full computer full of logs and tests from this car, its just flat out unreal how many tests I have done with it over so many kilometers covered and YEARS!. I think as I wrote a few pages ago what I am doing now is what I thought was a limit before, and this is like the first boost control setting! :)

I have a local dyno competition in February that I was going to run at last year (remember it got flooded out!) and I will just leave the car as it is on 1.85kg/cm as its proven and I have lots of information from my power measures of it and see what its like on their system.
In the cooler months (remember its middle summer here) I will run out to the higher boost settings I experimented with last year. These will only be able to be used in direct drive in 4th gear on the OEM gearbox, I will run it to 2.45kg/cm or about 35psi gauge boost pressure all indications are it will do it easily as the new water injection system specification by theory and practice to date is allowing such unheard of numbers without raising a sweat. :)

Once there that is it for this set up. I have no more capacity in this turbocharger nor many other components, but honestly what it does now on 1.85kg boost setting is totally amazing (its proven to accelerate faster than any super car you can buy, and has an acceptable top speed of 210+MPH!!!!), I say again I have NEVER tested nor seen presented to me in any legitimate way ANY RX7 in the world running a 13B engine of any configuration on normal pump petrol that will accelerate like what I run everyday........... and the proven world leading durability I have proven here is unmatched by anyone period.

RICE RACING

22-12-2011, 12:34 AM

I wanted to share with you this Grant (and other keen followers)

I have tested hundreds of RX7's and tuned and modified all of the best ones in this country and beyond :) I have on file every combination of RX7 you can care to imagine and like I detailed in earlier pages what is most interesting to compare is how RICESP goes V's stock versions.

Well its even more interesting comparing the common std BPU (basic power up) FD3S!. These typically consists of fitting a Apexi Power FC, a full 3.5" exhaust system, a better intake and upgraded stock mount intercooler, still on stock twin turbo system. All of this results in around 230rwkw as measured on a dyno dynamics or around 190rwkw real power as measured on a VBOX :)

Simple physics dictates if you have the same car shape, same car mass, same gearing! to do any speed increment in half the time and half the distance you need exactly double the power. Well after checking at least half a dozen cars I have measured on my own test track and even on closed circuits when looking at a common 100kmh to 200kmh pull from 3rd gear to 4th gear... RICESP does this test in just over half the time & half the distance required by a BPU RX7!!!!! < this is fucking unreal!!!! as anyone who knows a BPU RX7 is not a slow thing at all. Typically the acceleration I get in 4th gear is higher than what you get in a BPU RX7 in 3rd gear (with exact same gearing and tires size btw).

This same theory and reality applies to any other speed measure you care to do analysis on, my famous "bullshit stops test" 90-140kmh in 3rd gear http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm is a classic dreamer from reality destroyer. Anyone can make a peak BS power figure but to average nearly double the power from 4700rpm to 7700rpm in this classic test really does separate the men from the Gen Y brainless know it all's LOL.

RICE RACING

22-12-2011, 06:26 AM

here is some more angles of RICESP, the new rear tires look SICK! I love the way it sits. And the mega motor set up, cant stop looking at this, hard to believe something so stock looking (for a genuine SP!) makes so so much power!!! :) From concept to proven performer :)

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1723/img3815donmega.jpg

http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/11/img3740donmega.jpg

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/6563/img3719donmega.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6248/img3748donmega.jpg

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9582/img3709donmega.jpg

Grant M

22-12-2011, 10:14 PM

Grant M

22-12-2011, 10:17 PM

So what is the next step in WI development? are you going to change to a larger turbo and RR street port (as you said 2 bar is about the limit where the turbo can cope) and develop a race car instead of the awesome street rotary that you have built?

RICE RACING

23-12-2011, 12:05 AM

great stuff Peter, once my car is running (RX4) i cant wait to order a WI system off you and start building on my cars performance. I am starting off at just 14 psi with a Borgwarner s366 turbo, but with the WI in place i want to run the engine up to 2 bar, however this will be over time and i will learn how to make my car gain the full benefits of WI!!

Great to hear Grant, no matter what WI system you purchase (they all have potential to do what I have proved here) make sure you re read over this thread.... (I did this last night my time). It's amazing what can be achieved with WI on a turbo engine. I think RL and Howerton mentioned it in a few replies that being methodical and testing and testing some more is the only way to have the same results as what I have done here.

Some vendors will obviously give you a great starting point, but regardless of this the system needs to be integrated into your own car and each and every single one of these can vary for a whole host of real reasons (not excuses) and so its imperative that you are on top of the whole system before you try to achieve what I have done in my own car (and across the years in many customers cars).

You will love water injection, I have lots of customers (most of them shop owners) who still keep in touch with me years later btw still going on about how unbelievable the science is, once you unlock the door to its proven performance you will never ever run a turbocharged car without it :)

So far as my own next steps? After re reading my own thread here spanning "years" and ever shifting goals and targets I think that is it for my RICESP, its a beautiful car both to look at and to drive, something very very unique and special (to me anyway!).... I have lots of end users I work with on special projects around WI system developments and that will go on as it has for a long time now, some stuff is unheard of on any "forums" and shit you cant just google (too bad for the copy cats lol). Without going into any technical specifics because of confidentiality agreements I have with these people/organizations I can tell you that what I have developed and worked on makes what is public freely shared info and specs look like the majority of the internet LOL. Allot is rotary based but covers all types of ICE principles..... some exciting stuff is based around turbo compounding and running unheard of levels of turbo boost pressure reliably (all due to WI !) in conventional petrol engines...... some of the power outputs are astounding to say the least :)

Grant M

23-12-2011, 09:29 AM

Compound turbos = 100psi.

From the info I have read about the 2013 F1 season, they are going back to turbo charged cars, but with compound turbos!!

RICE RACING

23-12-2011, 11:39 AM

Compound turbos = 100psi.

info I have read about the 2013 F1 season, they are going back to turbo charged cars, but with compound turbos!!

Don't get too excited :( If you read the whole FIA rules proposal it is a fucked formula, WI is banned, VGT is banned, exotic materials are banned, they even dictate how a waste gated system must be run etc etc, it goes on and on and its gayer than an Elton John concert :( The "compound" part they refer too is an old aviation trick of running a second turbine coupled back to the crank shaft via a gear box system, this increases engine efficiency and a little bit of power, some trucks used to run this system as well.

The compounded systems are around 125psi FWI :) pretty radical stuff but I will get shot if I talk much about it lol.

Grant M

23-12-2011, 12:06 PM

TBH with F1 I get pretty damn bored of all the BS that goes wit it. The people that run it have spoilt the racing part of it, it's all about pitstops and strategies rather than actuall racing.

Ayrton senna once said "if you no longer go for a gap, you are no longer a racing driver" if the F1 business took this mentality it would be better than anything. They should bring back 12,000rpm 1.5 litre turbos. 4 cylinder only. And let them do what they want with power so long as the fuel lasts a full race and the engines last 4 races.

I won't ask about what you have been sworn to secrecy on, so to not tempt you ;)

Grant M

23-12-2011, 12:10 PM

Don't get too excited :( If you read the whole FIA rules proposal it is a fucked formula, WI is banned, VGT is banned, exotic materials are banned, they even dictate how a waste gated system must be run etc etc, it goes on and on and its gayer than an Elton John concert :( The "compound" part they refer too is an old aviation trick of running a second turbine coupled back to the crank shaft via a gear box system, this increases engine efficiency and a little bit of power, some trucks used to run this system as well.

The compounded systems are around 125psi FWI :) pretty radical stuff but I will get shot if I talk much about it lol.

So the compound system is more related to the KERS systems they are using rather than actually increasing input into the engine?

Eco friendly F1 is hugely gay.

That's like having electric drag cars. The whole point of it for the crowd is the speed and the noise, electric drag cars make no noise.

RICE RACING

23-12-2011, 12:40 PM

The "great days" of the automobile racing at the pointy end were in the 70's to the latest early 90's in IMSA and Japan, after that the world went HOMO so far as racing cars and categories goes, NASCAR formulas abound, its all about the show and fuck all about technological advancement and the most powerful racing cars. Contrived doctored air restricted boost limited NA only! or V8 only etc cookie cutter forms of racing divisions, and now ultimate insult is eco friendly bullshit sewn in = Elton John and George Michael in a Californian Public Toilet :(

In the world today there are cool sports, little pockets of turbo love where people apply all kinds of technology new and old and you see some sick cars!@ but sadly it is no longer main stream and no longer are the smartest minds and best people working in it ............. go figure that one out.

Sad but true you will see more exciting/technologically advanced cars at a Slovakian Hill Climb Meeting or a Norway rally cross event than you will see on a F1 BBC broad cast since the mid to late 1990's

raddy

27-12-2011, 06:21 PM

Hi mate, have to say that your notice about Slovakian Hill Climb Meeting make me really interested if you mean Slovakia, Central Europe?

RICE RACING

30-12-2011, 04:35 AM

Hi mate, have to say that your notice about Slovakian Hill Climb Meeting make me really interested if you mean Slovakia, Central Europe?

This sort of thing... yes > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-4s-iFoR50

RICE RACING

01-01-2012, 05:15 AM

Here is an update of the durability (measured by compression) of a stock 13B-REW (from brand new) when run at sustained high power. Taken form my postings on Aquamist Water Injection site.

So a full year on and covered another 6000km (to date: all up 8200km) of testing/racing/top speed trials.
Summary: Every drive has been quite high load 90-140 testing probably around 400 or so of these tests, many 100-200kmh & 60-130mph runs (3rd to top of 4th gear) and a few top speed runs (on special test track :)). Last 3000km at ~500bhp level @ 1.53kg/cm Boost level.

I did one intermediate compression test between the 1800km and this one today, but only wrote those figures down rather than taking a photo/proof. They were close to the ones today.

Rear Rotor
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=104&stc=1&d=1298191592

Front Rotor
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=105&stc=1&d=1298191697

This test was fully dry (engine run till out of fuel) and EGI disconnected, First one cant remember but I think was not as "empty" of excess fluid, this makes a high difference to rotary engine compression readings FYI.

Anyway she is not too bad, I did not think it would hold up this good especially given its a mobile test bed each and every single time it gets driven.

I have it at its new boost level of 1.7bar (around 1.75kg/cm) and it is a rocket :) see if she can make another year of punishment :)

So here is my once annual compression check up of RICESP (3rd year now! ~20,000km covered!)... This is after using the car as my daily driver for over 6 months! and also all of the higher boost settings and reconfiguration I have done over the Christmas breakk :)

Compression is better than 12 months ago!!!!

Rear Rotor
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8529/rearrotor112012.jpg

Front Rotor
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/3309/fontrotor112012.jpg

Grant M

01-01-2012, 12:41 PM

that is just brilliant.

RICE RACING

13-01-2012, 11:31 PM

that is just brilliant.

Yes it is! :)

I have changed the boost control from automatic to manual setting, and reconfigured a whole heap of settings, this has allowed quick changes in boost settings. The negatives are little v's the ability to not go through a lengthy "learning process" each time you want to try a new setting.

Yesterday after work I took it out and set to 1.92kg/cm boost its flying! just stupid how fast it is really, on the ECU logging it shows 100kmh to 150kmh in 2.05 seconds in 3rd gear, its difficult to look at any gauges in the car minus a quick scan of the tach, but really you change gear by instinct and feel and noise more than looking for a position of the needle ............ it really is that fast. I always have the intention to look at the boost setting or EGT etc, when doing a run in 3rd or higher, but in reality shit is happening so fast, pinned back in seat, car moving around, focused on keeping it on road that none of that is remotely possible. great great fun :) :) :)

Grant M

14-01-2012, 11:03 AM

So is that a little over 1.9 bar? Are you looking forward to the dyno comp? Would he good for you to get some responses from people when you tell them that the ports are standard.

RICE RACING

14-01-2012, 11:26 AM

So is that a little over 1.9 bar? Are you looking forward to the dyno comp? Would he good for you to get some responses from people when you tell them that the ports are standard.

I'll have it around that level of boost, but you never know what they run on a dyno since I only ever set it up on the road, may be a bit less or a bit more?

I'd like to go to it, last year they would not let me enter!, if they let me in I'll go, if not then no loss to me :) it's far more important to see/feel how it goes in real life on the road v's a rolling road. Good to go there to show up a few V8's they won't know what's going on lol.

My best estimate is the engine has 540bhp to 560bhp as it is now, what ever this equals on one of the hype roller machines is what I would like to see, as on my honest power recordings it is @ around ~340rwkw (460rwhp) on a std temp and pressure corrected day. Does not sound much in this day and age, especially if you watch some jappo domar video's lol but ironically if you look at how much lighter those cars are and how much more apparent power they have they don't accelerate now where near as good! I remember seeing one Euro time attack RX7 that did 435rwhp (dynodynamics) and weighed 100kg less than my car and it took 8.5 seconds to do 100kmh to 200kmh when my car with only 450bhp @ the engine did it in 7.5 seconds! same gearing lol............. I don't think much of rwhp dyno sheets after doing this for so so many years :)

RICE RACING

14-01-2012, 11:47 AM

With the new WI settings I made end of last year the charge temperature has seen the biggest improvements, even on ~1.9kg/cm on a 23 deg C ambient day the value is around 43 deg C on a 3rd to 4th gear pull. This is unreal given the size of my standard IC in the pics I provided (it is really way to small for this level of power) but the WI and the Spray really have worked amazingly well. The fuel temperature stays really well in check going in at 28 deg C (after a 30 minute drive ^ in above test) so it can do with a lot more boost pressure even in warm ambient temps.

Come winter running time, it will be no issue at all (bar traction!) to run the maximum boost the turbo can achieve, though it is near its overspeed limits now (if you choose to respect those *compressor maps*) I know of lots of people who exceed them, either way the more boost I run the more power the car makes and its not showing sign of diminishing gains. Could probably run it to well over 36psi lol. We will see, I'll pass this durability mark like I have all of the others over the years, and think about that next year ;)

Grant M

14-01-2012, 12:09 PM

RICE RACING

14-01-2012, 12:15 PM

How is your IC too small? In thickness or physical overall size? I have just got myself a PWR charge cooler with complete kit for ?700. ?500 cheaper than brand new. With the position I am going to mount the rad for the CC the volume of water will never let the CC heat soak. And with the addition of WM injection it should be amazing on inlet temps. And the fact that here in the ukthe weather isn't that hot even in the summer should make it a great setup.

Overall size, its limited by the carbon air box and battery position, have to keep it cause of the rare nature of the car ;)

If you run it non WI or spray it gets hot! back when I had it twin turbo and only on about 380bhp @ 1 kg boost it would pull about 70deg C charge temp in the top of 4th gear on a 28 deg C day.

I do dump allot of water on the IC, a trick I picked up of the old Benetton BMW F1 car when I red an article from their engineer who said how much they put over the core per lap in qualifying to keep the charge temps down to 45 deg C.

Grant M

14-01-2012, 12:16 PM

This is what iv got coming.
http://www.chargecooler.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=205

Grant M

14-01-2012, 12:22 PM

RICE RACING

14-01-2012, 12:27 PM

^ Yep been there with my old first gen RX7 decades ago :)

That is why I feel even more proud achieving (over double the certified measured performance of a stock RX7-SP) what I have with this set up as its really just 100% engine and bolt on's (sans turbo!) stock with fine tuning and the power of water injection unleashing the gains in power and durability :)

Grant M

14-01-2012, 12:37 PM

Have you inspected the inlet turbine at all? To see if there is any pitting or degradation from pre turbo?

A lot of people I speak to about WI are scared of pre turbo because they don't want to brake there turbos, but I explain to them that the elford turbo 1st gen rx7 actually have a preturbo carb, injecting petrol before the inlet. And they had no problems with degradation or cooling as they ran no ICs!!

RICE RACING

14-01-2012, 12:45 PM

Many times, there is nothing of the sort worth debating, I mention it in the pre turbo thread in detail, best you read up there. I'm sure in a weak as piss cast alloy thin edge turbo you will see some wear after a while, but its going to be of no consequence compared to the wear and damage caused to your rotary engine not running water injection LOL. I have never seen any turbo ever "break" from running pre turbo, I have seen some wear, and I have seen others not show one sign of any wear at all after 100lt of use! End of the day its a non issue, and for the proven gains you get running it, well I'll let you make up your own mind ;)

I have so many drag race customers who run it and not one has ever complained or raised it as an issue worth ringing or typing an E-Mail over. Most of these are pure methanol runners too, who use it to extend the range of their turbo to beat others who have no idea :)

RICE RACING

15-01-2012, 12:30 PM

Here is some pics of the IC spray valve, takes fluid from the WI tank, and some pics of the beast :) cleaned her today.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9651/img3827donlarge.jpg

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5718/img3833donlarge.jpg

http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/4656/img3878donlarge.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/1852/img3879donlarge.jpg

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/769/img3902donlarge.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7179/img3966donlarge.jpg

Grant M

15-01-2012, 02:48 PM

So how long does a tank of WM50 last? How many litres does the tank hold?

RICE RACING

15-01-2012, 09:02 PM

So how long does a tank of WM50 last? How many litres does the tank hold?

My tank holds about 6.5lt.

In a street application (unless you want to go to jail) you are on maximum power less than 10% of the time you are running the engine. One tank of fluid will last me a long time.

I run the car very hard and use more full power than the 10% :) typically I fill it with 20lt at a time (main fuel tank) and before each run (every weekend!!! for the last 3 years!!!) I'll pop the bonnet and just stare at my handy work :) and check out everything and open up the WM50 tank and check the level, I top it up every second week or so, and only put in maybe 2lt at a time, I generally don't ever let the tank go below half when used like this. It does use allot more fluid now that I spray the IC at a greater rate as well to keep the charge temp in check for maximum power.

Once you get used to running WI like this and its in your blood simply checking the tank every second or third time you drive it is easy if its a weekend car ;) and it becomes second nature. Around 6lt is the ideal size for me.

RICE RACING

21-01-2012, 04:28 AM

Took the bad boy out today :)

Got it on around 28.5~28.0psi across the rev range, about ~1.9bar region.
As the boost is going up the peak power range creeps up, peak is not happening at around 7700rpm to 7800rpm, in 3rd gear I get well over 15psi @ 3800rpm.
The car is very quick and with the new rear tires has a high level of traction to use all of the power this boost level produces (on a decent, dry, straight road surface!@).
Was driving the other day and pulled the 2nd,3rd,4th gear to 8500rpm and a mate herd it over the mountains near where he was, and thought it was a motor bike ! :) crazy bit of gear it is. The acceleration and velocity you can reach on just the shortest stretches of tarmac are extraordinary indeed.

I'll leave it at this setting and enjoy it for a while before again doing the over 2 bar gauge boost long term settings, I'll leave that for our mild autumn/winter/spring period ;)

RICE RACING

22-01-2012, 07:36 AM

I'll post up some other incremental times of the F40, I have 3 separate tests (one factory) two independent (USA and UERO models) and on peak power band test 60mph to 90mph and 70mph to 90mph I have ........

(Peak power band for all cars)

60mph-90mph
EURO F40 = 2.70 seconds
USA F40 = 2.90 seconds
RICESP = 2.59 seconds

70mph-90mph
EURO F40 = 1.90 seconds
USA F40 = 2.10 seconds
RICESP = 1.76 seconds

Further update to this post off page 13 (way back).

Current VBOX tests @ last stage of boost increase ~ 1.85kg/cm
60mph-90mph = 2.29 seconds
&
70mph-90mph = 1.65 seconds

Makes the F40 look slow now :)

RICE RACING

28-01-2012, 04:33 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXYAJWAV7YY

This is great reference for you.

86mph the 638bhp ZR-1 pulls 0.44G Mine 0.570G

110mph 0.31G Mine 0.411G

ZR-1 = 3350lb as tested
RICESP = 2910lb as tested

Power peak for both cars in two different gear (you can guess the power of my car) it's somewhere around/near/over? 600bhp as remember at higher speeds aero dynamic loads play more effect than weight

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-SW0H8smRc

100kmh to 200kmh

ZR-1 = about 7.2 seconds
RICESP = 6.2 seconds

Grant M

30-01-2012, 10:08 PM

what do you think you torque is with the 600HP you have got? i should imagine it is somewhere near the same figure?

Dust

31-01-2012, 12:32 AM

With the control valve, how low have you gotten water flow?

RICE RACING

31-01-2012, 07:43 AM

what do you think you torque is with the 600HP you have got? i should imagine it is somewhere near the same figure?

It's around 61+kg ~600+Nm figure. Pure function of the low down power of the standard porting, while the peak power is impressive its the mid range that is even more so. Clutch is rated to ~67kg and if it is not warmed up (due to it being carbon) it will slip marginally the first time you get on the power, so it has some grunt :)

RICE RACING

31-01-2012, 07:44 AM

With the control valve, how low have you gotten water flow?

Current system range is 100cc/min to over 1100cc/min

Dust

02-02-2012, 12:32 AM

With different parts could 100ccm be maintained with 150 psi water input?

RICE RACING

11-03-2012, 10:45 AM

Running 2.4 bar gauge boost pressure or just a shade under 35psi, the car kind of accelerates pretty quickly :) Traction is an issue (surprised ha ha) even with the race tires on the back.

100% pump obtained BP Optimax fuel only, no octane boosters needed ;)

Rice Racing RRWEP140 Water Injection wound out to its maximum! *a huge amount of WM50 going through the engine* charge temperature is still under control (better than what I had a couple of years ago running ~17psi boost pressure!) water temp great, engine just loves it. I can't run any more boost pressure on this turbo without greatly over speeding it (it is well off its compressor map now, flow and speed off the charts!) but keeps on making power and the car is just faster in every test I put it through.

This is it for this set up (when my work allows *free time pending* I'll run a couple more tests, post up some performance graphs, maybe even a video). I'll focus my energy on my other long term project that should debut some time soon, where I will really push my development for the ultimate in street rotary powered super car beaters ;)

Grant M

14-03-2012, 10:35 PM

What is the in car power meter reading now then Peter? Did you get to that dyno in January?

Will you be posting up you new project on here? I'm hoping that it will be a 20B project.

RICE RACING

15-03-2012, 02:51 AM

What is the in car power meter reading now then Peter? Did you get to that dyno in January?

Will you be posting up you new project on here? I'm hoping that it will be a 20B project.

I do around 400rwkw on my proper measure with the VBOX, this would be around 500rwkw on a guess mashine lol :)

I went to the show and the dyno did not show! no excuse offered as to why... must be scared of a little rotary turbo beating all their nugget V8 dinosaurs haha.

Next project has been work in progress for a while, long term thing, I'll update when it gets further along, probably start another thread on it.

madbouncy

23-03-2012, 07:26 PM

RICE RACING

23-03-2012, 10:30 PM

I've always been impressed by what you've done on the other forums and it's funny it took me this long to find your actual build thread. Just read through and it's an amazing build, especially the wing that reminds me of Joe Dirt :D

Now you talk about how you have been messing with the mixture of water vs fuel on this car for years but you've never mentioned the timing. Have you been just doing little tweaks with timing or has the setup required retiming entirely even at the same boost? Such as when you first made your 17 psi base runs vs when you made them now and were much faster.

Ignition timing for rotaries is always around a certain base level (when you run this combination of parts). The only time it ever varies is when you have a very poor intake manifold (and resulting poor chamber filling) and you need to use allot more ignition advance to make power.

As intake manifold boost pressure has gone up normally ignition timing would go down, in my case it did a little but not as much as you would expect, I tune my car for MBT but not as people would know (mean best torque) as that equals death on a rotary engine, but rather *minimum best timing*. When you run very large qty's of WM50 or water alone you need to find out what this level is otherwise you will miss out on a massive amount of power and speed from the set up.

In my own car differences of 1 degree in Leading ignition advance can change the power output by over 12% so I work off the basic principle that when the boost goes up I should have the theoretical power increase that this allows *srt(new boost/old boost) x old power* and if its not there and the mixture is withing a range of 10.2 to 10.8:1 (on a proper ignition system for the job) then the advance is lacking, so I will advance it until I reach this MINIMUM timing level to give me the power I should be getting off the new higher boost level (the timing is established at much lower boost levels that do not stress the engine as much). All in all the ignition timing I run @ 30+psi boost is not much different to what I run @ 14psi boost a few years back. This though is more related to having charge temperature well under control (sub 45 deg C) and having an appropriate AFR (10.2:1) and the right level of WM50 going through the engine for that boost/power/performance level. Spark plug heat range is also important (I run one step cooler v's what I ran @ 17psi).

p.s. You could experiment with active knock control or tuning for conventional MBT (mean best torque) but my many years of engine dyno experience running turbo rotary engines both my self and customers when testing showed that there is little reward for the risks once you have established *minimum best timing*..... the extra gains are in the order of 1 to 1.5% before the engine will detonate and die.

While I do not give out easy > "lists" of all parameters, any avid reader of this thread or my many others can find every bit of information (be it typed or data logs) they need to fill in the gaps and replicate the set up

madbouncy

24-03-2012, 07:38 PM

Your experience definitely shows through with the results you have acheived. I'd prefer not to copy you outright and I'm more interested in methods right now than anything. I have no experience with rotaries and very limited with piston engines but I am an engineer so the learning and researching for me is always the next best thing to getting my hands dirty. Your thread did motivate me to pull the engine out of my car this week but I have to graduate and get a job before I can even afford an ecu.

When you say that mean best torque lead to death for the rotary, what were you finding was happening? Do you think it was just overall heat or something more along the lines of a peak pressure getting too high?

Also, if you're loosing a lot of power by backing off one degree, are you finding that the timing has more of a hump and you're just on the rising edge or if you advanced further would it fall off just as quick?

RICE RACING

24-03-2012, 07:59 PM

I'm happy that its inspiring in some way :) its what this web site is about #1

For the timing its more of a plateau, the general slope though once you are onto it is up but the nearer you get to the end its like cliff not in performance drop, but in uncontrolled detonation. The chamber pressure gets high, but as you can imagine it gets many orders higher once detonation onsets and thus must be avoided at all costs especially at these high performance levels.

My theory and experience mostly leads me to the beginning of this "plateau" and the performance is exceptional once you get there V's what its like with only a degree or two less (when being conservative and feeling your way to where the engine starts to work well). At these levels its about self preservation and reliability and not about ultimate power output nor fuel economy per unit horsepower.

madbouncy

25-03-2012, 03:08 AM

Your explaination of how you tune on AI would explain why people in the subaru community where ethanol is available are so in love with it. It basically comes down to being too conservative to give the car a proper tune on gas but once they have their magical ethanol in there they can go all out. Especially since a lot of the guys will run AI injection that still run pump gas. However I think it's more of a way to just turn the boost up to make power and not so much worrying about timing. Then again, all the internet tuners that talk about it on the forum make it sound as though you're lucky to gain more than 2hp by optimizing the timing for the fuel and sadly I think a lot of the people that have the correct answers aren't willing to share the info.

It does show that even with a good knock feedback system like the subaru's, unless its actually on the threshold and looking for knock the system really isn't doing anything. What I'm hoping is that I can use the knock feedback type system to help get closer to what you've acheived in a shorter time frame, I would love to have your experience but I don't see myself matching you in the time it takes to build up one car. So the more sensors I can have on my side the better.

By the way, I'm sure you're following Howard Coleman's turbo thread on the other forum, but it's interesting to see how his setup is basically turning into yours but with a high pressure pump.

RICE RACING

25-03-2012, 07:00 AM

This web site is the resource on the topic that makes engines the most reliable and the most powerful they can be.

It's where the best water injection manufacturer resides (my friend Richard L) and it is where you (and others) have open information on cars and theology that works. There are many many capable people (not including myself there!) and a literal plethora of good/excellent information to follow across a variety of platforms.

My process of learning would have been accelerated many times if this place was available back many years ago when I started on this "science" of water injection. Still you are right that there are MANY capable people in the world who do not use the internet or don't post on forums or in some cases don't care to share information. That is life, but all of the information you need is already out there anyway, it just needs to be put into a modern context and some adjustments made for today's higher speed engines and addressing some basics like *ignition strength*, once you are on the way you will be surprised how quickly you will gain the experience.

RICE RACING

16-04-2012, 02:39 AM

I thought I better put up some new ECU log's to back up what I have been saying :)
Went out for a run this morning to capture some data for a friend of mine I am helping to inspire in America *hello*

The following are screen shots of the captured ECU information showing the start of the logging (test conditions at start prior to engine firing up) *test day was 19deg C at 10am. Shows MAP sensor calibrated to BAP sensor in ECU.

Second file is the highlighted 90-140kmh test in 3rd gear, showing peak boost in mid range revs (around 33.2psi on Blitz unit and around 32psi on Engine MAP sensor)

Third is the 140kph time increment, this showing the end boost (still over 30psi) Blitz shows 32psi or so, important is the sub 40deg C intake charge temperature, and low Exhaust gas temperature....... the time to do the speed increment speaks for it's self!!! THE THING IS LIKE A F7CKING SPACE SHUTTLE !!! it literally LAUNCHES down the road :)

RICE RACING

16-04-2012, 06:22 AM

Here is pics as promised

Parameters at start of test (before starting engine) 18deg C day
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11836&stc=1&d=1334553373

Mid range mega boost, 33.2psi!
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11834&stc=1&d=1334553828

1.742 seconds 90kmh to 140kmh! excellent charge temps, mega boost
http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11835&stc=1&d=1334553297

RICE RACING

16-04-2012, 07:41 AM

Forgot to add, did 100kmh to 169kmh in ~3.71 seconds on the ECU log (0.4 seconds faster to that point than when I did my 6.25 second 100kmh to 200kmh run on lower boost), ran out of test track to do 200kmh test, and only did easy shifting 3rd to 4th, with flat shift (on the race logic traction control) and run it out to 200kmh it will do this in the high 5 second range easy. This car is QUICK!

Log
http://rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11837&stc=1&d=1334559123

stevieturbo

16-04-2012, 07:40 PM

images arent working ?

RICE RACING

16-04-2012, 08:16 PM

Image Shack eats balls! hope this works now.

Conditions at start of test, 18 deg C Ambient
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7628/testconditionsatstartof.jpg

Mid range boost 33.2 psi Blitz boost SBC I-Color
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/8448/midrangeboost220kpaecul.jpg

90kmh to 140kmh 3rd gear test std power band test, very quick.
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8775/90to140kmh33psiruneculo.jpg

100kmh to 169kmh = 3.71 seconds short test
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/869/100kmhto169kmh371second.jpg

RICE RACING

21-04-2012, 10:57 PM

Keonigsegg and Veyron really are animals !!

*page 13 supercar performance list post*

The only car faster than mine from 100kmh to 200kmh is the Veyron now :)

4.8 seconds is hard to match let alone beat, but I only have a 2.6lt motor not 8lt nor 3 extra turbo's hahahaha

RICE RACING

28-04-2012, 10:03 PM

THREAD I POSTED UP HERE (LINK) > http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=14704
(PASTED BELOW)

Acceleration tests of FD rotary RX7's (VBOX data only accepted) verified by RICE RACING.
Only will accept flat road runs, any downward slopes greater then ~1.5 degree's over the length of the test will be rejected
Ranked FASTEST to SLOWEST
A little background information on acceleration times in gear/s: To do half the time of a stock weight FD you need basically double the power (simple), if you can do it in 1/3rd of the time you need 3 times the power (simple again) and so on it goes..... In your VBOX log the distance taken to achieve the speed is also exactly half if you had half the time taken, thus double the power (see proven example at end of post) eg: double the power also equals double the acceleration (Longitudinal G force average) *IT ALL ADDS UP IN REALITY! real world testing!!!*. These test really do separate the bullshit (dyno sheets) from the reality of practical acceleration tests.SEE EXAMPLE TEST @ BOTTOM OF THIS POST

OFFICIAL LIST
100kmh to 200kmh (Any gear or gears you like!)
User name - Time (seconds) - basic spec
smg944 - 5.12 sec - C16 water injected 27psi 525rwhp http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=14704
Ferrari ENZO - 5.80 sec - Blueprinted rebuilt motor (est 687bhp, 1505kg run weight) > http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=141406422&posted=1#post141406422
"A new engine is $250K USD and a re-built one from the factory is about $150K. We did ours for under $100K."
Ferrari ENZO - 6.20 sec - Factory motor > http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?p=141406422&posted=1#post141406422
RICE RACING - 6.25 sec - 93 oct water injected 24psi run http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1590&page=3
smg944 - 6.39 sec - 93 oct water injected 23psi 473rwhp
Ferrari F40 - 6.74sec sec - The super car reference, 1421kg run weight ~500bhp catless http://www.carobu.com/F40%20LM%20510hp%20dyno.html
Docmar - 6.90 sec - 93 oct 22psi 2 people in car http://www.rotarycarclub.com/rotary_forum/showthread.php?t=14704&page=3
Nathan - 10.82 sec - 93 oct 18.5psi RF420 twins
Kila13B - 15.52 sec - 93 oct 15psi 100% stock std RX7 Spirit R Type A

90mh to 140kmh (3rd gear only) power band acceleration test ~4500rpm to ~8000rpm < *rough rpm range* for typical FD's
User name - Time (seconds) - basic spec
RICE RACING - 1.91sec - 93 oct water injected 31psi run http://imageshack.us/f/806/191secvbox30psisicbro.jpg
smg944 - 2.18 sec - C16 water injected 27psi 525rwhp
RICE RACING - 2.26 sec - 93 oct water injected 24psi run
smg944 - 2.59 sec - 93 oct water injected 23psi 473rwhp
Nathan - 3.25 sec - 93 oct 18.5psi RF420 twins http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm
Kila13B - 5.70 sec - 93 oct 15psi 100% stock std RX7 Spirit R Type A http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm
Docmar -

OFFICIAL LIST of some real fast tuned & factory super cars & a few shit box porsches mixed in as well
http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9423/performancetable.gif

EXAMPLE TEST OF PROOF OF POWER RELATIONSHIP TO TIMES TAKEN TO ACCELERATE
This is another interesting comparison: From my collection of VBOX tests http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm
90kmh to 135kmh (best power gearing for the stock RX7) see rpm logging.

RICESP V Spirit R Type A (stock standard)

Car specs:
Spirit R Type A
1335kg as run
280PS factory rated engine (100% stock std no mods at all)
Car ran 0-100kmh in 5.55 seconds & 13.85 second @ 104.78mph RR V-BOX Recorded for 1/4 mile *no roll out*
Time = 5.06 seconds & 158 meters

RICESP:
~21psi Rice Racing Engineered Water Injected Monster :)
1310kg as run
Power is over double a factory RX7 (see actual VBOX RR rwkw measure) so roughly double the power, double the acceleration & half the time required to do it and distance as well :)
Time = 2.21 seconds & 69 meters

VBOX File report
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/7387/ricespvspirtrrtypeastoc.jpg

Another power analysis graph of RICESP using VBOX3i instrument
This is another interesting comparison: From my collection of VBOX tests http://www.riceracing.com.au/vbox-iii-testing-tuning.htm
Here is the 3 rd gear acceleration of the stock RX7 SP, tested by Motor Magazine with Correvit digital timing.

RX7SP stock 1995 test
204kw
276bhp claimed power factory rated engine (100% stock std no mods at all)

100kmh = 0 sec
110kmh = 0.87 sec
120kmh = 1.83 sec
130kmh = 2.84 sec
140kmh = 4.58 sec

RICESP
You guess the power :)

100kmh = 0 sec
110kmh = 0.51 sec
120kmh = 0.99 sec
130kmh = 1.51 sec
140kmh = 2.01 sec

http://www.ausrotary.com/images/reference/rx7sp/motor/motor9e.jpg

VBOX proof of my figures at mid range boost on our list, HIGH BOOST VBOX runs to come stay tuned :)
O.K. Remember pump petrol/gasoline here only ! ***OFFICIAL VBOX test results***

90kmh-140kmh = 2.26 seconds!
100kmh-150kmh = 2.39 seoconds!
100kmh-200kmh = 6.25 seconds!

http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6964/img3966don1.jpg

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7215/img3886don1.jpg

Still on old tires, and showing about 24psi boost on the VBOX, and ~330rwkw VBOX POWER

Tested at 1320kg run weight and 25 deg C ambient day, still doing boost learning procedure so there is a bit more in at this level and fuel mixture set rich to be on safe side.

Fact V's Fiction

Will put up some VBOX graphs when I get them off the lap dancer top

Here is the graph of the 2.26 second 90-140 test :) this car has a *massive* power band, not normally seen on genuine 13B road cars of this level of performance and speed!@ the word "response" does not do it justice! It builds one bar of boost at around 3400rpm in a transient test, and near its maximum boost setting well before 4600rpm and it does it even in the low gears which only take a second or two for 8000rpm, its fantastic..... best road car set up ever !@
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/1341/226secvbox.jpg

RICE RACING

29-04-2012, 09:34 AM

madbouncy

04-05-2012, 04:04 AM

Did a new record 90kmh to 140kmh test today :)

1.91 seconds for 30.5psi boost pressure, exhaust manifold pressure is starting to rise too high and the turbo is over speeding a bit. This is about the limit of the set up I say, showing 354rwkw or about 580bhp figured back to the engine from experience.

In the picture it looks like your manifold pressure is 30psi and the exhaust is almost 38 psi. That doesn't seem like it's getting that high compared to a lot of logs I see on other cars, mainly subarus. Exhaust pressure never really seems to get talked about a whole lot so I'm definitely interested if you have suggestions on what you look for. For my subaru the recommended ratio is around 1.5 to 2 and they don't consider it high until around 60psi. Obviously the RPM is turbo dependent so that I can understand getting too high and is easier to know when you're going too far.

Also, do you think a lot of the exhaust pressure has to do with overlap? Say an engine with almost no overlap could get away with more exhaust pressure than a car with moderate or extreme overlap? From a theory standpoint that would make sense to me but the theory only talks about a concept and doesn't give any insight on an actual optimal setup.

Lastly, is the boost engine that is at 30 psi the actual manifold pressure or is it before the intercooler and everything?

- Matt