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View Full Version : Aquamist HFS-3 system for 2010 ..... "Q and A"


Richard L
29-12-2009, 06:53 PM
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/HFS3m-sh.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/H3-w5tr-np.gif
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/vantage-point.gif

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/H2-wiring-gen3gr.gif
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/H3-wiring-gen3gr.gif

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/control-panel2gr.gif

Richard L
29-12-2009, 07:45 PM
I have now completed the final HFS3 update

The system has been planned for some time, right after the launch of the HFS-6. We want to be certain the core components are totally reliable before launching the second PWM system.

THF HFS-6 has provided us a sound foundation and quick development time.

The HFS-3 is an affordable entry-level system for those who wants to venture into the PWM valve concept, allowing "wide dynamic range" and "fast response to load change".

Please feel free to post questions.

royster
02-01-2010, 10:11 AM
Looking good :D

Just a few questions...hope thats okay.

- What price (approximately, if you don't have final pricing) will this system be ?

- Is there likely to be an introductory offer & if so what kind of price ?

- What is the target launch date ?

- Is the 52mm gauge mentioned the DDS3 controller ?

I'm based in the UK & pretty new to the world of water injection but noticed that the only people marketing the HFS kit are US Suppliers.... Howerton Engineering have a great site.

Howerton Engineering
02-01-2010, 04:52 PM
Looking good :D

Just a few questions...hope thats okay.

- What price (approximately, if you don't have final pricing) will this system be ?

- Is there likely to be an introductory offer & if so what kind of price ?

- What is the target launch date ?

- Is the 52mm gauge mentioned the DDS3 controller ?

I'm based in the UK & pretty new to the world of water injection but noticed that the only people marketing the HFS kit are US Suppliers.... Howerton Engineering have a great site.

Royster,

Final MSRP has not yet been decided, but will certainly be less than the HFS-6. There will be an brief introductory price in the mid-$600us range. Projected launch date is late January or early February. The DDS3 controller is a stand-alone failsafe unit with flowsensor, junction board/controller and gauge. The gauge(to the end user) is the same between the DDS3 and HFS-3, but the HFS 3 and 6 have the failsafe functions and their own flowsensors built into the systems.

Thank you for the complements on the site.

royster
02-01-2010, 11:00 PM
Thank you, that's very helpful.

nick_r
09-01-2010, 03:18 PM
When starts the group buy?

Howerton Engineering
09-01-2010, 05:27 PM
Possibly this week, very soon!

PROJEK X
11-01-2010, 04:31 AM
Fellas, Fellas, Fellas, is there a "list" one would need to get on to be wanna the 1st to get a 3?

Richard L
13-01-2010, 10:07 PM
Yes, The list will be up by the weekend. Sorry for the delay, there are a great deal of background work.

Howerton Engineering
14-01-2010, 06:06 AM
One detail I wanted to post up for consideration. The HFS-2 system is upgradable to the HFS-3 at anytime. A factory direct kit will include a gauge and cable(replacing the switch) and a flowsensor with mounting block to the FAV. The is no difference between the rest of the parts in the kit.

Richard L
14-01-2010, 08:09 PM
As promised, the machined body of the HFS-2 dash switch has arrived from the anodiser today, delayed by the recent heavy snow fall last week. We assembled it and took a few pictures. The image is animated to show how the system work in real life. An information much needed before the GB starts in two days time on the aqaumist forum.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/H2-SW-an1.gif

gearhead1186
16-01-2010, 06:56 AM
Yes, The list will be up by the weekend. Sorry for the delay, there are a great deal of background work.

oh boy.. im waiting too..

Howerton Engineering
16-01-2010, 07:00 AM
Yes, The list will be up by the weekend. Sorry for the delay, there are a great deal of background work.

oh boy.. im waiting too..

That's what we like to hear. Hopefully we have a good group buy with these systems. If we can exceed the HFS-6 introduction it will be very good.

Raceready
22-01-2010, 12:34 AM
If we can exceed the HFS-6 introduction it will be very good.

What was the total for the hfs-6 just out of curiosity.

thanks

Howerton Engineering
22-01-2010, 12:39 AM
I think 60+ worldwide.

Pat32
24-01-2010, 01:52 PM
Question:

- What is the maximum amount of methanol % the system can run?
- Can the system run ethanol? What is the maximum % of ethanol supported?
- Will the system come with any documentations as to installation and/or parts required? So far I can see I need a water tank, but is there anything else i need? Filters, hoses etc

Thanks

Richard L
24-01-2010, 08:28 PM
Question:

- What is the maximum amount of methanol % the system can run?
- Can the system run ethanol? What is the maximum % of ethanol supported?
- Will the system come with any documentations as to installation and/or parts required? So far I can see I need a water tank, but is there anything else i need? Filters, hoses etc

Thanks

- 100% methanol is used on the HFS-6 system (same pump) since March this year with no report of pump failure of leak. As far as the pump manufacturer (aquatec, USA) the pump is resistant to methanol

- I think ethanol is possible but not confirmed by aquatec - thinking of running a secondary fuel system?

- The system will come with a user manual similar to the (HFS-6). It comes with every thing except the water tank. Download the HFS-6 user manual so that you can get an impression on what is supplied and how the manual is written. You can see the in-tank filter (blue item) on the product picture.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS6/HFS-6-4w.pdf

DiGiTaLBee
25-01-2010, 10:29 AM
What are the differences between this kit and the HFS-6?

Why is the small tube, that is attached next to the pump of the HFS-6 system, missing on this one?

Are there any guide lines as to how the car should be programed to run this kit?

Richard L
25-01-2010, 12:02 PM
The HFS-3 cannot (compared to the HFS-6):
- offset against the initial F-IDC - the F-IDC threshold % = starting point of meth flow %
- It doesn't have manifold pressure compensation, but can use it as a reference for injection (see below).
- alter the failsafe reset period = pegged at 3 seconds
- read "Direct Injection" pulses such as the 335i or Audi FSI pulses
- control a MAC valve directly as with the HFS-6

The HFS-3 can:
- scale-up/down the incoming F-IDC for car with very large fuel injector that doesn't run up to 100%.
- You can run the system based on boost or IDC only. In single stage or progressive mode.

The HFS-6 is more suited for engine with large turbo with power beyond 550whp.

Howerton Engineering
25-01-2010, 04:25 PM
What are the differences between this kit and the HFS-6?

Why is the small tube, that is attached next to the pump of the HFS-6 system, missing on this one?

Are there any guide lines as to how the car should be programed to run this kit?

I think the small tube you are referring to is possibly the accumulator. This unit is used to smooth out any pulses apparent in the lines due to the nature of the pump. I have not used a kit without an accumulator so Richard will have let you know the effects of removing it from the system. My guess would be it may change slightly between each application due to flow rates etc. but Richard is the authority on the subject.

As for programming, there are general guidelines one can follow but your best bet is to contact other users of the system with similar vehicles/applications to yourself and inquire as to settings/tuners that have been used. Maybe we can have some feedback on this forum for you one of the other sections if you post a few questions there.

DiGiTaLBee
26-01-2010, 10:08 AM
I think the small tube you are referring to is possibly the accumulator.
This unit is used to smooth out any pulses apparent in the lines due to the nature of the pump.

That's what I thought. But why is it missing from this system? I think (and maybe wrong) that with smaller engines, and the PWM-Valve working at lower speeds, this is needed more than the HFS-6 system that is intended for more powerful engines, as Richard pointed out. Did it up the price of the kit too mutch or it is really not needed? Can I have a kit with it or install one myself? I am planing on doing "direct port" injection that is why I am concerned about the pulsating jet so close to the intake.

What are the failsafes that this system has? I know that one for sure is the liquid level. Any other? Is flow taken into consideration?

Also, when is the manual coming out?

Sorry for asking so many questions but this is a new kit and not match is written about it.

Thank you both for your replies

Howerton Engineering
26-01-2010, 05:06 PM
I can't give you an accurate answer on the accumulator as Richard will have made the decision to eliminate it. We do have the parts here to add it to the system if you wish to do so.

The system has a similar failsafe setup as to the HFS-6, with the reset time fixed and no direct circuit for the MAC valve( but the normal contacts con drive a MAC valve fine). So a full flow based failsafe is provided in the 3.

The manual will be published when completed, we have a good deal of product info on our site here:

http://howertonengineering.com/Aquamist_hfs3.html

Even though there are some differences to the HFS-6, installation and basic operation are similar to the 6.

keithmac
26-01-2010, 10:26 PM
Would the HFS-3 support 2litres/minute methanol flow at good pressure?.

Howerton Engineering
26-01-2010, 10:41 PM
Richard will have to give a definitive answer, I think the pump will flow 1800cc/min at good pressure, and the FAV can be configured for special applications if need be. I'll try to get him to respond here.

Richard L
27-01-2010, 12:46 AM
I think the small tube you are referring to is possibly the accumulator.
This unit is used to smooth out any pulses apparent in the lines due to the nature of the pump.

That's what I thought. But why is it missing from this system? I think (and maybe wrong) that with smaller engines, and the PWM-Valve working at lower speeds, this is needed more than the HFS-6 system that is intended for more powerful engines, as Richard pointed out. Did it up the price of the kit too mutch or it is really not needed? Can I have a kit with it or install one myself? I am planing on doing "direct port" injection that is why I am concerned about the pulsating jet so close to the intake.
.
.
.
Sorry for asking so many questions but this is a new kit and not match is written about it.

Thank you both for your replies

The item in question does two jobs. It stores a small amount of pressurised water from the previous injection event on readyness for the next event. This fills the gaps where system pressure can drop by a small amount before the water pump spools up from a dead stop to arriving at the intended system pressure. The second job is to softening the hammer-effect caused by the rapid on/off action of the inline valve.

One of reason for omitting it is final system cost, we have to trim $200+ off the HFS-6 so people can afford a PWM valve system other than the HFS-6. We have been criticised for not designing a system for the masses.

As to the effect on the overall system performance in its absence, it is mimimal. This is because the HFS-3 is designed as a trunk mounted system, the long pressurised nylon hose (18 feet) between the pump (in trunk) to the inline valve (engine bay) will act as the 22cc surge arrestor/accumulater.

The item can be purchased separately, part #806-409. You need to get the kit of parts as on the HFS-6.

Please ask as many questions as you want, this is the place to do it. Information-overload and just as bad as providing too little.

Richard L
27-01-2010, 12:58 AM
Would the HFS-3 support 2litres/minute methanol flow at good pressure?.

The HFS-3 is designed to supply 1500cc/min of water at 160psi. This is below the upper limit of the standard inline valve of 1800cc/min. Beyond this flow the system pressure will drop by 10-12psi unless you wind-up the pump pressure. The flow control by the valve will looses its linearity. You need to contact us to supply a higher flow valve up to 2-litre/min and a higher flow flow sensor. Those will be specials and a small cost involved, but we can do it.

Shag55
29-01-2010, 09:39 PM
Hi I'm thinking of getting in on the group buybut want to know if I need the hfs-6. My motor is a 2.2ltr and makes 550 hp on c-16 race fuel. This is a multi usage car so mostly I use pump gas with boost turnd down to 12 lbs to prevent knock. It's intercooled. I don't use a MAF so fetures of the 6 system like the accumulator, map compesation and start flow point. Are these fetures needed and what are the reasons.

Richard L
30-01-2010, 01:59 AM
What car do you have?

The HFS-3 should be able to handle all you need to run pump fuel and have performance approaching C16. Can you explain if you have a second switchable map for c16 or just running lower boost for pump fuel.

Shag55
31-01-2010, 07:12 AM
Hi Richard, the car is a 55 bug. 2165cc aircooled motor extensive mods. Yes a seperate map for c-16 but have to manualy input the 2nd map so look to use the w/m to keep one map only and meet somewhere in the middle. I'm hopeing to get into the 10s on pump gas. What nozzles do you suggest. One or two smaller ones? Also what mixture?

Richard L
31-01-2010, 01:55 PM
If you have some ideas what fuel flow is your car consuming per minute?

Or the estimated horse power of your engine and boost psi. From there I can estimate the jet size.

Richard

Shag55
31-01-2010, 06:14 PM
I have 96 lb injectors and never go over 80 perc duty cycle. With the low map I never go over 60 perc. Horse power goal is 350-400 at 18 lbs

mt057
31-01-2010, 10:54 PM
The idc gain trimmer is used to upscale the flow of the jets? Right now I feel like I am running a good deal of methanol. My peak injector duty is 70% this occurs at my redline. Can the Hfs-3 be cranked up to match the flow amount of the Hfs-1, basically will it flow less meth where my injector duty cycle is less and will that cause me to lose power theoretically? Or is the afr/timing more important than the % of methanol being injected after a certain point (diminishing gain by injecting more). That is to say that more is not necessarily better as long as its tuned properly. Sorry just trying to wrap my head around this. My old system is an hfs-1 v8. I think I need to do alot more reading.

Howerton Engineering
31-01-2010, 11:39 PM
MT057, what size injectors and what jetting do you have in the HFS-1 right now?

mt057
01-02-2010, 12:01 AM
I am using 780cc injectors and I believe that I am using a .8 and .6 but it could have been a .8 and 1.0 My old tuner put them in about a year ago. The jets have red rings that i can see if that helps at all.

Howerton Engineering
01-02-2010, 12:20 AM
Bright red is a .7mm and dark red is a .8mm. Assuming this combo you are spraying about 670cc. I'm not sure at what RPM this comes on at at WOT, and does it come on at close to WOT or partial throttle settings as well? Anyway, with 780cc injectors and 100% meth, using the same jet with the higher psi pump, you will have 790cc of jetting. Now, at the cut in point, which maybe sooner or at less load than the HFS-1 depending upon how you set it, it will track IDC 1:1 at the cut in point. After that, you can adjust the gain function to add or subtract duty cycle with the slpoe of the line pinned at the cut-in point and hinging from there. You can add or subtract up to 20% plus or minus. I suspect you will have a little less in the midrange than you are used to but more as the revs climb if the trimmers are left in the factory settings. You could go with bigger jets, and trim the gain way down to flatten out the curve to make the unit similar to what you are used to if you like.

One thing to try, is to download the HFS-6 trimmer excel worksheet, and leave the MAP compensation(set to 5v) and IDC trim(12 o'clock position) untouched then you can play with the curves to see what you have now and what different configurations the 3 will give you.

mt057
01-02-2010, 01:02 AM
By what you are saying I could ramp it up until the mid range is where I am used to and then lean out the gasoline up top a litte more. I will have to try out that spread sheet.
My current setup kicks on at 12psi and I run about 30psi in third gear from 4500 to 7000 in 4th I hit 32 making my limiter on my ebc go crazy.

Richard L
01-02-2010, 11:46 AM
I have 96 lb injectors and never go over 80 perc duty cycle. With the low map I never go over 60 perc. Horse power goal is 350-400 at 18 lbs

Your maximum consuming is around 4 litre of fuel per minute, regardless of DC%.

Please try the following ratios:
100% water ...... 400cc to 600cc per minute
M50:W50 ......... 600cc- 800cc per minute
M100% ........... 800-1000cc per minute

Take 18psi from the chart below and pick the jet combination to suit:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/HFS6/H6-jetrate.gif

Shag55
01-02-2010, 04:23 PM
So useing that chart. Pump pressure 160 psi- 18 psi And needing between 700-800cc I need one .7mm and one .8 mm to run 100 perc meth or one .6 and one .7 to run 50/50

Richard L
01-02-2010, 06:10 PM
it is OK to over jetting, the HFS-3 can reduce flow electronically.

EngineerX
02-02-2010, 06:19 PM
I have been using your System in the Hydramist version. (DDS v8)
I will be interfacing the HFS-3 with a HydraEMS in a Honda S2000 application

I want to use the HydraEMS auxiliary map feature so I would like to know which output from the HFS-3 is equivalent to the MAP-SW2 output from the DDS-v8
This output enables the ECU to use the auxiliary fuel-trim map and allows to run with or without the Water Inj. system on. - I could wire an "external" switch but if it's already available from the DDS3 display gauge then I would like to wire it that way- similar to the Hydramist.

Also which output from the HFS-3 box can be used for a solenoid boost-cut relay when a fault is sensed? This could be a (+) or (-) trigger?
thanks!

Richard L
02-02-2010, 10:24 PM
The grey harness on the HFS-3 has the wires you are looking for:

Black: Map SW0 ......... Relay N/C
White: Map SW1 (DDS3v8 MSW-1) ........... Relay COMM
Brown: Map SW2 (DDS3v8 MSW-2) ........ Relay N/O
(Relay energises immediate when gauge is switch on)

If you are using a voltage based map switch on the hydra, the HFS-3 has a dedicated wire for that, it can output 0, 5v or 8V. It can also be inverted.

gengo
09-02-2010, 09:41 PM
What additional failsafe equipment is needed (or recommended) for those who don't have map switching available (i.e. Evo X)?

Richard L
09-02-2010, 10:21 PM
The HFS-3 have an internal failsafe relay. It can be used to reduce boost down to wastegate presure by cutting the cable between the ECU and boost solenoid valve upon failsafe activation.

Richard L
09-02-2010, 11:23 PM
At present, H3 can cut one of the solenoid valves to lower boost. I believe one valve controls more boost than the other. If you want total boost drop to wastegate, you need an external double pole relay, with two dummy load resistors.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/EvoX-HFS3-OE.gif

Richard L
10-02-2010, 12:11 AM
Preliminary HFS2/3 user manual download here. (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/HFS3v1w1.pdf)

mt057
10-02-2010, 03:57 AM
In the manual a diagram show how the gain trimmer affects the slope of WI to primary IDC and it is 1:1 or 1:2, etc. It moves up and out but is not parrallel to the original idc slope now it flow mores at higher idc than it does at a lower idc or vice versa? I am trying to understands this so forgive me. Would changing the jets to a size larger be a better way to flow more but parrallel to the orginal flow pattern if high flow through out if thats desired? Or does the gain trimmer make the WI flow increase "X" percent from the trigger point parrallel to the orginal.

Howerton Engineering
10-02-2010, 04:27 AM
The gain trimmer will affect the slope starting at the cut-in point from my understanding. So where ever the starting point is, whether 12% or 40% or wherever, that point will start at 1:1. If the gain is left at 12 o'clock on the trimmer, the injection will follow the 1:1 slope. If the gain is turned down(to the left) the slope will pivot from the cut in point and then the slope will deviate and run shallower than the IDC slope.

Conversely, if the gain is turned up, the slope will rise, injecting more as the IDC gets higher.

http://howertonengineering.com/Aquamist_hfs3.html

Scroll to the bottom of the page and I have modified the HFS-6 trimmers worksheet for the HFS-3 control board. This should give you a visual representation of how the trimmers will affect the injection slope. You can plug numbers into the colored boxes at the top of the spreadsheet and watch the slope change. Please don't change any of the values on the other sheets as these are all the calculations to make it work.

Richard L
10-02-2010, 09:49 AM
In the manual a diagram show how the gain trimmer affects the slope of WI to primary IDC and it is 1:1 or 1:2, etc. It moves up and out but is not parrallel to the original idc slope now it flow mores at higher idc than it does at a lower idc or vice versa? I am trying to understands this so forgive me. Would changing the jets to a size larger be a better way to flow more but parrallel to the orginal flow pattern if high flow through out if thats desired? Or does the gain trimmer make the WI flow increase "X" percent from the trigger point parrallel to the orginal.

I would like to clarify this amd update the chart.

The gain trimmer takes effect at the point of trigger. Any earlier, it will affect the trip point. If you want overall increase in flow, use multiple jets.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/GAIN.gif

Richard L
10-02-2010, 09:59 AM
The gain trimmer will affect the slope starting at the cut-in point from my understanding. So where ever the starting point is, whether 12% or 40% or wherever, that point will start at 1:1. If the gain is left at 12 o'clock on the trimmer, the injection will follow the 1:1 slope. If the gain is turned down(to the left) the slope will pivot from the cut in point and then the slope will deviate and run shallower than the IDC slope.

Conversely, if the gain is turned up, the slope will rise, injecting more as the IDC gets higher.

http://howertonengineering.com/Aquamist_hfs3.html

Scroll to the bottom of the page and I have modified the HFS-6 trimmers worksheet for the HFS-3 control board. This should give you a visual representation of how the trimmers will affect the injection slope. You can plug numbers into the colored boxes at the top of the spreadsheet and watch the slope change. Please don't change any of the values on the other sheets as these are all the calculations to make it work.

Jeff, thanks for making the spread sheet. It works very well. I intend to increase gain more because if the trip point is set very late, there isn't that much signal to amplify. In most cases, user will rely on the red led (<95%) to monitor the maximum gain is reached. Thje gain adjust is useful tool. Overall spray volume is governed by the jet size.

mt057
10-02-2010, 07:41 PM
Thank you for your responses and that chart is pretty cool. I plan on using the same trigger point I am currently at about 30% IDC and possible up the jet size on both my jets a little. I top out currently at about 67%Idc using 4 780cc injectors. I need to check to make sure the size of my current jets.

PROJEK X
13-02-2010, 10:43 PM
At present, H3 can cut one of the solenoid valves to lower boost. I believe one valve controls more boost than the other. If you want total boost drop to wastegate, you need an external double pole relay, with two dummy load resistors.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/EvoX-HFS3-OE.gif

WoW, i just seen this for the 1st time. Please dont take this in any wrong way. shape, or form but i think i love you Richard. You are the F'ing man!

Richard L
14-02-2010, 09:24 AM
This is only done recently. There will be more to come once the GB shipping is over, at present, there isn't enough time in a day to do everything. I will be generation more internal sub forums for individual cars so users can download and discuss their particular car and ECU.

Richard

Richard L
14-02-2010, 01:34 PM
There has been some confusion on what type of direct injection signal the HFS-3 can read.

The HFS-3 will be only able to read directly injection signal if it is re-configured by aquamist or selected dealers. It the system is not ocnfigured properly, it will not work. For those of you who want configure the system yourselves (soldering iron required), please contact me at richard@aquamist.co.uk. I need to know the car model and year of manufacture.

It can all be done, but there isn't a "one size fits all" because there are so many types of direct injerction system around. This applies to diesel and gasoline engines.

Richard

chongl
25-02-2010, 02:31 AM
I plan to run 50/50 with boost of 21-22psi. My injectors are 860cc, but do I take into account their max duty cycle or calculate based on their potential?

4 injectors x 860 = 3440 x 0.15 (50/50 ratio) = 516. So looking at the chart I should run either the 1.0mm or 0.9mm jet with the 0.7mm restrictor?

Howerton Engineering
25-02-2010, 02:40 AM
Your calculation is correct. The duty cycle is relative, so if your injectors are at 80%, so is the Aquamist. Therefore we usually go by injector size and disregard duty cycle unless there are some special circumstances or the injectors are oversize and max out at 55-50%

chongl
25-02-2010, 02:59 AM
Perfect...when I was logging I was topping out at 76-78% IDC

ziad
26-02-2010, 09:48 AM
Your calculation is correct. The duty cycle is relative, so if your injectors are at 80%, so is the Aquamist. Therefore we usually go by injector size and disregard duty cycle unless there are some special circumstances or the injectors are oversize and max out at 55-50%

funny u say that i am running 1050s... and they max out at 65% duty cycle. at 25psi which is about what i will run. what do u recomend for me... yes maybe i should have asked this question first... to me currently it looks like i should be able to manage with a .8 and a .9 (most probably needed 2x 0.5 or 1x0.5 and 1x0.8)

Richard L
26-02-2010, 10:36 AM
The HFS-3 is equipped wioth a gain trimmer, you can always use it to do fine adjustment. I would oversize the jets and turn the flow up or down with this trimmer.

Picking the exact jet is not as critical.

ziad
26-02-2010, 10:11 PM
yeah thats what i initially thought... thanks for clearning up Richard. another silly question, how do i workout that what trims i need to put... do i use the excel spreadsheet??

Richard L
26-02-2010, 11:20 PM
The "THRES" trimmer is set for 42% IDC (12 o'clock) from factory. It may be a big too high for you due to your large injectors. I would set it to 9 o'clock, ~24% DC.

The "GAIN" remains the same - see how it goes from there. Jeff's spread sheet is very good, you can use it to estimate your flow based on the jet/jets used.

Raceready
09-03-2010, 04:20 PM
I am having the kit installed early next week in a 2003 Subaru wrx 2.5 hybrid. I also have the dual tank from howerton eng. I won't be getting tuned for a couple of weeks though.

I haven't read the install instructions thoroughly but some of it will be beyond my comprehension. Anyway, my question is can I just drop the kit and tank off to be installed and can the installer just follow the instruction booklet or will he need to access the site for wiring and failsafe instructions?

And here's a picture of the custom gauge install:

http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy103/gfaw/photo-1.jpg

Richard L
10-03-2010, 01:05 AM
Very nice, what was the panel originally for? NOt the Satnav screen?

Raceready
10-03-2010, 03:11 AM
That was where the stereo was. Because I listen to to engine now-adays, I don't need a big system anymore. I just use my iPod touch.

Richard, what about my question above.

Gerry

Howerton Engineering
10-03-2010, 05:00 AM
I am having the kit installed early next week in a 2003 Subaru wrx 2.5 hybrid. I also have the dual tank from howerton eng. I won't be getting tuned for a couple of weeks though.

I haven't read the install instructions thoroughly but some of it will be beyond my comprehension. Anyway, my question is can I just drop the kit and tank off to be installed and can the installer just follow the instruction booklet or will he need to access the site for wiring and failsafe instructions?

And here's a picture of the custom gauge install:

http://i782.photobucket.com/albums/yy103/gfaw/photo-1.jpg

There's something missing in this picture......where's the V1? It's a necessity where I am.

Raceready
10-03-2010, 04:03 PM
"There's something missing in this picture......where's the V1? It's a necessity where I am."

too many gauges to monitor for V1

ziad
10-03-2010, 11:01 PM
i have a question... if using meth+WI... can i use filtered water safely?

Richard L
11-03-2010, 12:14 AM
You can use water of any kind. It is a matter of reducing maintenance time. Hard minerial water will cause clogging with time.

De-ion ior De-min water is very cheap in 25 litre drums.

ziad
12-03-2010, 02:30 PM
ok install is done........ now starts the fun part. tuning the car. i will try and take pics later today when its light)... now just hope the tank doesnt leak.

with the level sensor in the tank the arrow should it point upwards or downwards?

Richard L
12-03-2010, 07:22 PM
The arrow should be point upwards. The float level should point upwards when the tank is full. You are probably the first.

ziad
16-03-2010, 10:11 AM
ok i have two issues. first about my car and setup. i am usign 4x1050cc injectors running at 50-60% DC max. i have two jets one is the 0.8 and 0.9. i have put a 0.7 restrictor. the thresh i set at 12% (minimum) and gain at 1.2 (20% extra). HL and HW are respectivly set at their maxes so it shouldnt light the yellow LED. i have two problems.

1) on initial start the 8 flow lights light up then it settle to 7lights. is that cuz i am using jets that are too big??
2) on spoolup i get the failsafe yellow led flash up. i have worked out if the car remains at low IDC for long enough (like going up a hill with lowish boost) the light will come up. or if i load the car in higher gear like the 6th the light will come up. i have also worked out that if i rotate the thresh till 3rd line (about 20-23IDC) then the light does not come up.... except that means the meth does not start till i am running 16-18psi... i want it comming on at 5-10psi or about 12-15% IDC. as i am soon moving to a place where i dont have access to good quality fuel.

can anything be done??

Raceready
16-03-2010, 04:47 PM
Richard, my installer is confused a little. The kit is going on a Subaru wrx so a wiring diagram would help for that model car. His question is concerning the harness with all the wires. The instructions say to just connect 3 ofthose to the ECU. do you do anything else with the other wires? And he's got other questions. Can I just put him in touch with you as I'm not there in person during the install.

What is the best way to communicate? I would think by phone. Is there a number he can use to call you?

Thanks

Gerry Faw

Crimeboss
16-03-2010, 07:01 PM
Hi, was in the same boat. They're just real busy over there. It's not too bad once you figure out where all the stuff goes. Check out the "HFS-6 wiring diagrams for specific model of cars" in the forum. You should be able to get the info you need from there on the rex.

Also I can highly recommend tapping the wires (especially ECU) with posi-taps. Makes for a clean and easy removal as well.

Richard, my installer is confused a little. The kit is going on a Subaru wrx so a wiring diagram would help for that model car. His question is concerning the harness with all the wires. The instructions say to just connect 3 ofthose to the ECU. do you do anything else with the other wires? And he's got other questions. Can I just put him in touch with you as I'm not there in person during the install.

What is the best way to communicate? I would think by phone. Is there a number he can use to call you?

Thanks

Gerry Faw

Richard L
16-03-2010, 08:12 PM
I will speed up my HFS-3/subaru diagrams. I have all the infos here but lack of time.

Meanwhile, you can use the HFS6/Subray (h6 forum), the wiring is almost the same, The ECU pin out is identical.

Richard

Richard L
16-03-2010, 08:13 PM
Raceready,

Tried to call you. Let me know your installaer's number, I can call him.

Richard

Richard L
16-03-2010, 09:43 PM
I have just uploaded the Subaru 03wrx to HFS-3 wiring diagram to the link below:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=12323#post12323

Richard L
16-03-2010, 09:46 PM
Hi, was in the same boat. They're just real busy over there. It's not too bad once you figure out where all the stuff goes. Check out the "HFS-6 wiring diagrams for specific model of cars" in the forum. You should be able to get the info you need from there on the rex.

Also I can highly recommend tapping the wires (especially ECU) with posi-taps. Makes for a clean and easy removal as well.


I will do the 05wrx wiring diagram next, I think it is your car?

ziad
16-03-2010, 10:16 PM
hey richard any thoughts on my problems??

Howerton Engineering
17-03-2010, 02:23 AM
For #1 you need to scale the gauge with the SC pot. Put the system in test and set the gauge to 6 of 8 bars.

For #2 fiX the scaling first above and see how the problem changes. I can say if you are trying to run right off 12% IDC then the system will be very sensitive on the low end.

ok i have two issues. first about my car and setup. i am usign 4x1050cc injectors running at 50-60% DC max. i have two jets one is the 0.8 and 0.9. i have put a 0.7 restrictor. the thresh i set at 12% (minimum) and gain at 1.2 (20% extra). HL and HW are respectivly set at their maxes so it shouldnt light the yellow LED. i have two problems.

1) on initial start the 8 flow lights light up then it settle to 7lights. is that cuz i am using jets that are too big??
2) on spoolup i get the failsafe yellow led flash up. i have worked out if the car remains at low IDC for long enough (like going up a hill with lowish boost) the light will come up. or if i load the car in higher gear like the 6th the light will come up. i have also worked out that if i rotate the thresh till 3rd line (about 20-23IDC) then the light does not come up.... except that means the meth does not start till i am running 16-18psi... i want it comming on at 5-10psi or about 12-15% IDC. as i am soon moving to a place where i dont have access to good quality fuel.

can anything be done??

ziad
17-03-2010, 02:41 AM
so i should connect the BAR jumpers right???

ziad
17-03-2010, 12:46 PM
anyway tried playing with the SC... but still if i have the thresh low the failsafe comes on. currently at the 3rd line (1st line is 12%) it is ok for a 3rd gear pull but not for a 4th gear from 2500rpm.

i have changed my restrictor to a 0.9mm (it was 0.7/middle one before) so see what happens in the morning.

Richard L
17-03-2010, 02:29 PM
Have to altered the Failsafe delay trimmer. It may help a great deal.

Raceready
17-03-2010, 02:42 PM
Thanks for the diagram and help Richard. And crimeboss, thanks for support. He has the system installed but just needs to do the boost selonoid wiring now. He took the car out and could tell it was spraying due to the misfires that occurred around 10psi of boost.

Is the default trigger about 42% idc and is that about right for most setups (850 injectors, 23-24 psi, 2.5 hybrid 03 wrx). Also any other settings that need to be adjusted before I pick the car up Saturday.

Thanks for any help. This stuff is a bit over my head so sorry if ?'s are very noobie.

ziad
18-03-2010, 02:17 AM
ok i still need to test as there was too much traffic today. but initial thoughts looks like it is sorted.

so as advised by richard, i put the 0.9mm jet and have set the failsafe delay at full right (600ms) currently the thresh is on 2nd line and it seems to behave nicely.

proz07
18-03-2010, 02:52 AM
hey guys as i get closer to figuring out the exacts for my system even though i havent contacted jeff yet to get it shipped lol (SORRY JEFF ill give you a call soon) im having some difficulty understanding some things to set up my system.

so my questions are as follows....

what is 100% DC for the hfs-3? How many miliseconds? or is there no max it just follows ecu inj DC regardless of max RPM and INJ size. I.E. the matching of % of injectant is based off the injector choosen to match correct?

reason i ask is all this talk about the inj DC start times 12-72% well how does it know or are these just random numbers put down for refrence purposes later?

i need this info as i will be running it on a 94 mazda rx-7 and being i have stagged injection i need to figure out what inj to tap off for the signal? primary or secondary unfortunatly they are not equal sizes so the inj DC will be different for them. which will determine injector size and trimming later.

also being the injector duty is different and the secondaries dont even come on till 38ish IDC i believe at which time the primaries drop IDC to match thier respective fueling % of the total IDC for that event. and then they come up linearily from there. LET ME VERIFY SOME OF THIS.

another question is the IDC or BOOST threshold? any more info on this as the hfs-3 manual states nothing really how it works. as i understand it it is ONLY for the starting threshold correct? after that it mimics IDC only not boost pressure? so if boost threshold jumper used the threshhold potentiometer would have what reference? 0-5v of the MAP? i believe this would be my best bet for threshold activation and nozzle size can be calculated on which injector i reference from easier.

may be a little much but any info please
z

Richard L
18-03-2010, 09:58 AM
On the RX7, it is a problem but there are three solutions


1. Splice into the secondary rail, tracking the IDC from 25% to 100%

2. The HFS-3 can be configured to be progressive with boost on the under side of controller. (Not MPS trigger link on top). If you want to go for this option, I will post more and show you how this is done, requires the use of a soldering link), We did want to put too many things on the user manual, it only confuses people.

3. Use a "summing module" so you get the total fuel flow from idle, see link:
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=626836&page=3

Here is the beast:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/RX7/summer-s.jpg

proz07
18-03-2010, 10:39 PM
ahh nice to see now i assume used with the HFS-3 the PWM out on the SUMMER would go to the HFS-3 injector in? whats the price of this unit? would i need to order that directly from you if i went this route i didnt see it on Howerton's site.

and for the boost sensing it dosent switch to IDC after the threshold so that is pointless and might as well be an on off valve IMHO. so i will not be using that.

now ran off the secondary IDC is definatly close as i can get short of the SUMMER but i dont think i need any lower than what i can do off the secondary. i have verified that i can change the % IDC that the secondaries come on at with my PowerFC stock is at 40% IDC FYI. also once the secondaries come on line both the primaries and secondaries have the same IDC time so i believe this will work out excelent with my furute plans of swapping to the AEM PNP which can better control the IDC's for the secondary swap over.

thanks
z

Richard L
19-03-2010, 01:38 AM
1. Yes, the output of the summer goes to the input of the HFS-3. It is only available directly from us at $120.00 + shipping.

2. The HFS-3 can be configred to work solely on boost, no IDC input is required. Consider MAP based signal only readd one variabe (boost). IDC signal contains the product of all sensors.

3. Even without the power FC, it is still workable on tracking the secondary injector signal. I believe the OE ramps the secondary injector from 25% DC on.

If your primary injector is 550cc x2 (1100cc) and 850cc x2 (1700cc) you total fuel is 2800cc From 25% to 100% DC on both set, your lowest WMI starting point is from 700cc/min to 2800cc/min. It is not a bad at all.

40%DC is what most of our user set the thoer WMi starting point. Unless you have huge fuel injectors.

proz07
19-03-2010, 02:26 AM
1. good to hear ill keep that in mind later on down the road if needed

2. exactly the reason i want to use IDC not just BOOST and the HSF-3 just simplifies this

3. yes currently the stock injectors later upgradding to 4x 1000cc secondaries but keeping the 550 or equivilant primaries so it should work out just right. and like i said ill be dropping the secondary transition % if i need to later after testing the system on the current safe tune on straight pump.

one other question though was the potentiometer for threshold. being that everyones IDC is different pending rpm and injector size and inj cycle style (batch,sequential, semi-seq) whats the reference miliseconds for the threshold settings? i.e. 12% equals ?? miliseconds 42%, 72% equals what milisecond on time?

good info thanks

z

Raceready
19-03-2010, 03:36 AM
richard, pick car up Sat (03 wrx hybrid, 850 inj. anticipate 23-24 psi). My installer wired to cylinder 1 instead of 3 or 4. He says from what he checked out that that's no issue. Is this ok from your perspective? Need to know pretty soon before pick car up.

Can I dis-enable unit until I get a tune. It's now installed and working but wont get tuned for 2-3 weeks. NOt sure I want to run water and meth mixture during that time as installer (an engine builder) says that water can potentially pool and possibly cause increased compression and hurt moving parts.

Could I just turn the thess or whatever its called on the controller all the way clockwise so that it wouldn t trigger jets till like 72% idc so that I can boost some but not max?

Anyway, I know you're busy but just want to know if the link to cylinder 1 is ok and about disabling the unit or setting the scale to not trigger till high rate idc.

If you get a chance to respond I appreciate it. I know you are very busy. I will also post on the board in case others can help.

Thanks, Gerry

Howerton Engineering
19-03-2010, 03:49 AM
richard, pick car up Sat (03 wrx hybrid, 850 inj. anticipate 23-24 psi). My installer wired to cylinder 1 instead of 3 or 4. He says from what he checked out that that's no issue. Is this ok from your perspective? Need to know pretty soon before pick car up.

Can I dis-enable unit until I get a tune. It's now installed and working but wont get tuned for 2-3 weeks. NOt sure I want to run water and meth mixture during that time as installer (an engine builder) says that water can potentially pool and possibly cause increased compression and hurt moving parts.

Could I just turn the thess or whatever its called on the controller all the way clockwise so that it wouldn t trigger jets till like 72% idc so that I can boost some but not max?

Anyway, I know you're busy but just want to know if the link to cylinder 1 is ok and about disabling the unit or setting the scale to not trigger till high rate idc.

If you get a chance to respond I appreciate it. I know you are very busy. I will also post on the board in case others can help.

Thanks, Gerry

Yes, you can either turn the IDC threshold all the way right as you suggested, or you can just turn the unit off on the gauge face as well. This will enable the failsafe unless you temporarily change a jumper on the board.

It doesn't matter what cylinder you wire the IDC signal to, unless there is something special about your car.

Raceready
19-03-2010, 01:38 PM
Yes, you can either turn the IDC threshold all the way right as you suggested, or you can just turn the unit off on the gauge face as well. This will enable the failsafe unless you temporarily change a jumper on the board.

It doesn't matter what cylinder you wire the IDC signal to, unless there is something special about your car.

Great, thanks a lot for the information. I didn't know you could just turn it off on the gauge.

Richard L
20-03-2010, 07:52 PM
Mr reply in green...



1. good to hear ill keep that in mind later on down the road if needed

2. exactly the reason i want to use IDC not just BOOST and the HSF-3 just simplifies this

Good to know

3. yes currently the stock injectors later upgradding to 4x 1000cc secondaries but keeping the 550 or equivilant primaries so it should work out just right. and like i said ill be dropping the secondary transition % if i need to later after testing the system on the current safe tune on straight pump.

This seems to work out just perfect due to the smallish primary. This means you are able to go dwon as low as 22% form the secondary.

one other question though was the potentiometer for threshold. being that everyones IDC is different pending rpm and injector size and inj cycle style (batch,sequential, semi-seq) whats the reference miliseconds for the threshold settings? i.e. 12% equals ?? miliseconds 42%, 72% equals what milisecond on time?

The "RPM, milli-second, etc" calculation has already taken care of. Just dial in the %DC on the trimmer. (12% to 72%)

good info thanks

z

proz07
21-03-2010, 04:31 PM
excelent support from aquamist directly on this site as well as the wiring diagrams for the few wires that need to be connected

thanks

z

jmargo
13-04-2010, 11:34 PM
This is a question in regards to extending the two cables that connect to the PVM. I can cut/splice to add length or put an extention coupling at the end and run additional cable. However, is the flow sensor set to length and looking for a specific resistance/ohm number ? If I extend it will the readings be off ?

Thanks

Richard L
14-04-2010, 09:30 AM
No problem extending the wires.

Richard

jmargo
14-04-2010, 10:33 PM
No problem extending the wires.

Richard

Thanks....just a quick trick to pass on about running the wires. If you put heat shrink around the ends it keeps the tab from breaking as you pass it through confined spaces. Once its done just cut it off with a razor.

Richard L
14-04-2010, 10:44 PM
Please explain again, I didn't quite get it

gluis
15-05-2010, 04:51 PM
Hello everyone,

I have a question. Where the failsafe is connected and how it control my timing/boost whenever I'm out of water/methanol mix, or any other fault condition in the system?

My car is a modified 07 STI, and I'm looking into H2O/Meth injection for the first time. Trying to learn as much as possible before making a decision.

Thanks and best regards,

Guillermo

gluis
15-05-2010, 05:00 PM
Hello again,

What's the size of the gauge? 52 or 60 mm

Thanks,

GS

Howerton Engineering
15-05-2010, 11:21 PM
The gauge is 52mm

cammy
15-08-2010, 12:52 AM
Hey guys :)

Quick Q about wiring in the HFS-3 to an EVO 7 JDM ECU. In the Diagram it shows a red, green and a pink wire to go in to the ECU harness. However the RJ-45 cable supplied does not have a pink wire :confused: which one am I supposed to connect to pin 42 for the +alt map switch. :)

daymean
15-08-2010, 10:05 AM
^^^I think the orangy looking wire is the pink one....
I am installing my hfs3 in my evo8 atm and having some problems with getting the pump to prime...did it work well for you?

Richard L
15-08-2010, 02:16 PM
Hey guys :)

Quick Q about wiring in the HFS-3 to an EVO 7 JDM ECU. In the Diagram it shows a red, green and a pink wire to go in to the ECU harness. However the RJ-45 cable supplied does not have a pink wire :confused: which one am I supposed to connect to pin 42 for the +alt map switch. :)

The latest version of the HFS3's pink map switch wire has been replaced by an orange wire, We may not hav euipdated all the diagrams on the user manual. The cable supplier decided to change it.

Our apology.

cammy
16-08-2010, 02:23 AM
Richard :
lol, no apology needed :) the amount of help you provide is above and beyond and I am sure everyone appreciates it. :cool:

daymean :
Sorry mate, I have not tried to turn the system on yet as my engine is still not in the car. When its back in I will let you know :)

Also I will have lots of pics of the install.

daymean
16-08-2010, 03:07 AM
Richard :
lol, no apology needed :) the amount of help you provide is above and beyond and I am sure everyone appreciates it. :cool:


X2 both Richard and Jeff @ Howerton.

cammy
25-08-2010, 11:49 AM
hey guys, back to bother you again :o

I finished the wiring for the control units power and I can only get the one LED to light up. Is this because I have not filled the tanks for the first time yet ? I am still putting the motor back in but all the sensors and wiring is done.

I read the manual and saw it should come on after 5-10 secs ? what am I missing :o:o:o

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll142/aevo3/IMG_0091.jpg

Richard L
25-08-2010, 11:59 AM
Disconnect the water level sensor and try again.

The system will not start up if the tank is empty.

cammy
25-08-2010, 10:42 PM
problem solved. thank you muchly :)

daymean
30-08-2010, 03:35 PM
Hey Richard,
When setting up the Sensor calibration, should this be done with the jumpers in test mode, while the car is stationary?

Richard L
30-08-2010, 04:56 PM
It has to be done on the road to be certain.

I suggest 10 clicks on WL and WH from ZERO. Set the SC to 12 o'clock Let me knwo how many bar you are seeing with this setting.

Where are you located

Richard

mt057
11-10-2010, 02:23 AM
I have a 2003 evo 8. Is it possible to run both the map switch and use the wiring to cut boost to wg for failsafe from a ebc. I want to use the map switching to change fuel maps but use my current ebc to control the boost level still instead of a seperate bcs. I assume that I can run both because I am not using boost control on my alternate map, but I want to make sure I would not fry the board lol. I plan to install a switch/led to allow me to continue to run high boost after changing maps. Thank you for your time.

Howerton Engineering
11-10-2010, 11:15 PM
The map switching and contacts for the WG solenoid are different circuits so I believe you can do both without issue.

MPSdriver
15-10-2010, 02:14 PM
There has been some confusion on what type of direct injection signal the HFS-3 can read.

The HFS-3 will be only able to read directly injection signal if it is re-configured by aquamist or selected dealers. It the system is not ocnfigured properly, it will not work. For those of you who want configure the system yourselves (soldering iron required), please contact me at richard@aquamist.co.uk. I need to know the car model and year of manufacture.

It can all be done, but there isn't a "one size fits all" because there are so many types of direct injerction system around. This applies to diesel and gasoline engines.

Richard

Hi I'm looking for a WMI system for my mazda6 MPS mainly to keep things cool up top as I'm seeing some KR above 4500 rpm (stock tune, autoexe IC, remus catback, Q8 98 ron).

Considering the post above I would conclude that the HFS-3 is suited for DI petrol engines like the MZR DISI in my mazda? I believe I saw a scheme for the 3 MPS which has the same engine but a different ECU.

I've been looking around for WMI on the net and noticed that most manufacturers offer 200 - 250 psi pumps for "better atomization".
Aquamist offers pumps that deliver 150 psi. Is the increase in atomization between a 150 psi and 250 psi pump relevant or is this just marketing? Are there any downsides you guys know of when using a 150+ psi pump (inertia?).

Thanks

Richard L
15-10-2010, 08:33 PM
It is unusual to see knock on on a relatively 98 ron fuel. Has your boost been turned up?

The HFS-3v2 (now shipping) has the ability to read all the Direct injested cars. Just contact me know and I will send you the information how to configure it for your car.

Apart from Aquamist, all makes of wmi system on the market is based on pump speed. A PPS (progressive pump speed) system relies on pressure to bridge its dymanic range. For example, to double the flow, you need to quadruple the pressure.

A wmi system often start as 50psi and ramp up to 200psi (standard trim). So the flow coverage can only serve a power change between 100 to 200bhp. Even at 250 psi, the converage only extends from 100-225bhp. (A little more).

Marketing do miss out soem facts. a PPS system does spray at 250 psi all the time. IN fact it rarely stay at this pressure unless you are at full boost all the time. A dairy drive with occasional burst of power means your average pressure is much less than 150psi.

The aquamist system sends pwm pulsed to an inline valve, similar to a fuel injector. Pressure is kept constant at 160psi. Regardless of low and high flow delivery, you get the same 160 psi pressure for atomisation.

To the contrary, the PPS system will suffer from lagging power transient response due to the mass of the rotating pump motor. Slow to ramp up and slow to stop (dribble). The aquamist system line is kept at 160psi at all time, it only takes a few thousandth of a second to reach full flow and stop spraying.

If you are interested, I will post some videos.

MPSdriver
18-10-2010, 09:33 AM
Thanks for the answer. I think I found the vids you're refering to via the Howertone website. I understand what going on now, pretty niffty.

I'm still running the stock tune but I've been seeing some KR (0,4 - 3?) at WOT pulls past 4000 rpms (115 bar of fuel pressure, 1 bar of boost, AFR's below 11).

Went on holiday to Germany and as they don't have Q8 stations over there (have Q8-tankcard) I filled her up with Shell V-power racing (100 ron). I still got the knock countdowns (6? to 0? in ten secs) when cruising on the highway which I assume are just ECU callibrations, but I didn't have the WOT knock anymore which led me to conclude that while running the Q8 98 ron fuel my engine was more prone to knock.

I've read up on the HFS system some more and the HFS-2 setup might be better for me as I can still upgrade when I decide to up the boost later.

Richard L
18-10-2010, 07:06 PM
I have a 2003 evo 8. Is it possible to run both the map switch and use the wiring to cut boost to wg for failsafe from a ebc. I want to use the map switching to change fuel maps but use my current ebc to control the boost level still instead of a seperate bcs. I assume that I can run both because I am not using boost control on my alternate map, but I want to make sure I would not fry the board lol. I plan to install a switch/led to allow me to continue to run high boost after changing maps. Thank you for your time.

- The map switch output is the orange wire of the grey harness
- The boost cut out is the brown (valve side) and white (EBC side) of the grey harness.

Richard L
18-10-2010, 07:09 PM
Thanks for the answer. I think I found the vids you're refering to via the Howertone website. I understand what going on now, pretty niffty.

I'm still running the stock tune but I've been seeing some KR (0,4 - 3?) at WOT pulls past 4000 rpms (115 bar of fuel pressure, 1 bar of boost, AFR's below 11).

Went on holiday to Germany and as they don't have Q8 stations over there (have Q8-tankcard) I filled her up with Shell V-power racing (100 ron). I still got the knock countdowns (6? to 0? in ten secs) when cruising on the highway which I assume are just ECU callibrations, but I didn't have the WOT knock anymore which led me to conclude that while running the Q8 98 ron fuel my engine was more prone to knock.

I've read up on the HFS system some more and the HFS-2 setup might be better for me as I can still upgrade when I decide to up the boost later.

Has your car been modified?

MPSdriver
19-10-2010, 07:52 AM
it has an upgraded TMIC (autoexe), a catback (remus) and a bpv (HKS). I wouldn't say it's highly modified :rolleyes: The knock isn't audible btw I'm reading KR of my dashhawk.

Richard L
22-10-2010, 04:01 PM
Oh I see, I thought it was the OE log. Does the knock event confirmed by the OE log (if available)?

MPSdriver
25-10-2010, 09:40 AM
I don't know if I understand yr question correctly. But the dashawk reads some ECU parameters through the OBDII port. One of the parameters is knock retard.
I've owned the car for four years now and I've heard it knock about three times (=> highway driving and boosting in sixth gear = high load / low rpm => MZR DISI doesn't like). On every occasion the KR alert on the DH lit up so I figure when there is knock it is detected. However the DH also shows KR on occasions when there is no audible knock (e.g. part thorttle cruising or WOT). I'm not too worried about the part throttle knock, but I'm looking to fight the WOT knock with a WI-system.

cammy
03-01-2011, 09:49 AM
I have successfully installed and followed the power-up procedure in the manual but now I am having a problem getting the system to prime out the 6mm hose when i disconnect it from the FAV.

I turn the IGN to the "on" stage with the jumper on the INJ prongs, then when the dash gauge starts up I remove the INJ jumper and put it on the SYS prongs as instructed in the manual. Then after about 5secs I can hear the pump click and the water level light turns on despite being about 60% filled with water.

I have the pre-built HE kit so pretty sure the level sensor is fine. :)

thanks in advance. :cool:

Richard L
03-01-2011, 10:56 AM
Are you trying to primg the system without the inline valve connected?

If you want to primind the system wth "valve assembly" and "jet", you must keep the INJ jumper in place and use the spare jumper from the "prk" to activate the system.

cammy
03-01-2011, 11:45 AM
Thanks for the quick reply Richard, just reading the manual again and its saying something different. I Just took the spare prk jumper and and put it on the sys prong while leaving the inj jumper enabled and it made a louder click but thats about it......

Priming and purging of the system:

a: fill up the tank with water half way.
b: Disconnect the 6mm hose from the FAV assembly and put the hose into a container securely.
c: ignition switch in pre-crank position and gauge is switched on. Uncover the controller and pull out the "inj" jumper (disabling the FAV) and put it to the link marked "sys". The pump should power up and water should come out of the 6mm hose within a few seconds.

Richard L
03-01-2011, 10:46 PM
If the water is not coming out of 6mm hose end with force, the pump head may have some trapped air. Use a small length of 6mm hose (better the entire 16 feet length), let the water from the pump flow back to the tank. This is a better way for getting rid of the trapped air in the pump head.

The click when INJ and TST is enaged, the valve is opened 100%. Try not to do it more than 1 minute at a time withiut and water going pass it.

cammy
04-01-2011, 04:20 AM
Okay, I took off the long hose and attached a 25cm 6mm line from the pump back up to the tank. Unfortunately it has not made a difference. The pump just doesn't want to seem to turn on. I checked power to the pump with the multimeter and it is fine. I have even tried to manually suck air out of the pump head through the line with a little bike pump that has a reverse setting. The water pumps through fine so I think the problem is elsewhere.

I have disconnected the water level sensor but no matter what I try I keep getting the water level light coming on instead of the system actually priming.

Richard L
04-01-2011, 09:48 AM
The yellow led is doubled up as a failsafe, it will naturally comes on if the valve assembly is not connected.

Can you bridge pin30 and 87 and let me know if the pump comes on. Check the fuse also. It can be a bad relay.

cammy
04-01-2011, 11:29 AM
Okay I have found the problem :) it was the fuse....... I know I sound like an idiot but I put a brand new 15A fuse in and it must have blown straight away. I saw it was blown so I put another in and sure enough it blew straight away also, this continued for the remaining 4 mini fuses I had....

So went down to the local Repco and got a different brand and sure enough it works like a charm.

Sorry for the fuss, and thanks for the help. :)

zakshaker
06-01-2011, 11:04 PM
Hello,


I have strong feeling my HFS-3 is acting as single stage. PWM jumper is well closed and SSG is open. The only jumper which is not on default location is Trigger one as I've chosen to trigger with boost instead of IDC, trigger is set up at 0.6 bar now.
when system is trigged, the guage will indicate 5 bars instanly and won't change any indication, no matter I set the boost to 0.8 or 1.3 bar, it still indicate same flow. same reading with any RPM. what could be the cause of this ?

Howerton Engineering
07-01-2011, 03:55 AM
Hello,


I have strong feeling my HFS-3 is acting as single stage. PWM jumper is well closed and SSG is open. The only jumper which is not on default location is Trigger one as I've chosen to trigger with boost instead of IDC, trigger is set up at 0.6 bar now.
when system is trigged, the guage will indicate 5 bars instanly and won't change any indication, no matter I set the boost to 0.8 or 1.3 bar, it still indicate same flow. same reading with any RPM. what could be the cause of this ?

It may be acting fine, the display depends on a number of factors: being IDC range you spray in, jet size, and injector size and usage.

For example, if you start spraying at 40%IDC, and you injectors max at 65%, then the range of movement of the bargraph will be small, no matter the RPM or perceived load. If you can give us some specifics we can determine if it is operating correctly.

zakshaker
07-01-2011, 10:36 AM
hello,

the kit is setup to start spraying at 0.6 bar of boost pressure, which must be around 20%IDC then it goes up to around 65%

when I tested the kit on my fuel map. I did this test :
- boost set up at 0.7. when HFS3 activate, it goes straight to 5 bars. engine has hesitation as A/F ratio goes over 10:1 then it gets better as rpm rise
- boost set up at 1.3 bar. when hfs3 activate, it goes great as boost reach higher pressure (it still indicate 5 bars no mater RPM). A/F ratio is much closer to normal at 1.3 bar, which means there is less methanol vs fuel than when setup at 0.7 bar.

also, when I first did flow test, I ended up using 1mm nozzle, which was perfect flow size. but when I tried to drive with it, when HFS activated, car was just hesitating like hell (very rich). so, I changed for .8 nozzle, which went quite better.

I also noticed EGT are going a bit down when the pump trigger. but is going up again when boost or RPM rize up to same value it was without Aquamist

note : those test were done using 50:50 water/meth

so in my opinion, my active valves just stay open and act like single stage kit.

Richard L
07-01-2011, 02:56 PM
The HFS-xx is designed to spray up to 1600 cc/min. At lower, you willbe operating at the boottom end of the designed range. In this range, unless the inlet restrictor is well, match, you will be getting some overflow.

All the turbine flow sensor also over reads a little as it accellerates towards a steady flow. We are bring put a range of smaller valves in the next few months. Beta test is available now. Howerton do have a few but not many untill full production.

Richard

Howerton Engineering
08-01-2011, 07:14 AM
hello,

the kit is setup to start spraying at 0.6 bar of boost pressure, which must be around 20%IDC then it goes up to around 65%

when I tested the kit on my fuel map. I did this test :
- boost set up at 0.7. when HFS3 activate, it goes straight to 5 bars. engine has hesitation as A/F ratio goes over 10:1 then it gets better as rpm rise
- boost set up at 1.3 bar. when hfs3 activate, it goes great as boost reach higher pressure (it still indicate 5 bars no mater RPM). A/F ratio is much closer to normal at 1.3 bar, which means there is less methanol vs fuel than when setup at 0.7 bar.

also, when I first did flow test, I ended up using 1mm nozzle, which was perfect flow size. but when I tried to drive with it, when HFS activated, car was just hesitating like hell (very rich). so, I changed for .8 nozzle, which went quite better.

I also noticed EGT are going a bit down when the pump trigger. but is going up again when boost or RPM rize up to same value it was without Aquamist

note : those test were done using 50:50 water/meth

so in my opinion, my active valves just stay open and act like single stage kit.

As Richard said, if you are not using the proper restictor it will flow higher in the lower IDC region. Using EGT as an indicator may not be the best as the heat load from you method of forced induction may not match RPM proportionally. You may only get a 2 bar change with the setup and settings you are using.

I will need to look at the schematics or ask Richard, I believe there maybe a test point on the board where you can read a representative 0-5V output of the valve DC. You can drive the car and measure this to see if it as acting as a single stage or not.

zakshaker
08-01-2011, 09:41 PM
I'm using the smallest restrictor provided : 0.5mm
if there is a 0-5 volt output to test valve DC, I could check that :)

cammy
25-01-2011, 06:31 AM
Hi guys, got my HFS-3 spraying nicely now :) just need a little bit of experianced advice on the dial settings so I can start tuning shortly.

I imagine the following info is needed,

* evo 7 with 2.4L
* running direct port .3mm jets x 4
* 1000cc injectors
* 50-50 WM

thank you

Cammy :)

Milou911
04-02-2011, 11:06 AM
I just got my Aquamist HFS3, i'll be installing it on my Porsche 997 turbo, has anyone done it on this car before? Any info?

thx

Milou911
08-02-2011, 11:51 AM
Anyone...........?

Richard L
08-02-2011, 05:54 PM
There has been a few 996's. But I think the DME is the same. If you need soem wiring instruction, here is a link to it:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=1876

EPL put one into a 997 here:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/221882-997-turbo-aquamist-water-methanol-injection-install.html

zakshaker
16-06-2011, 09:58 AM
quick notice,

Problem has been solved using smaller fuel injector :)
I used to have big injector to run ethanol, so when back to regular gasoline, my injector duty range was very low (under 50%). I have reverted to proper smaller injector size (to have 80% duty) and downgraded jet size acordingly. now the kit works perfect ;)

mindblower
23-12-2011, 01:54 PM
Ford F-350 superduty 2003 7.3L turbodiesel
"Installed" HFS-2 system in it but doesnt work.
Indicator/dashswith red led always on.

Broblem is where do you install injector duty cycle harness (red and green wire) when ford has 120v system in it?

Richard L
23-12-2011, 03:25 PM
There are two version of the dash switch red/yellow and green/yellow. Unfortunately the user manual does not state there is a red/yellow verison. If you have solid red, it means the system is installed correctly and ready to inject once it sees the IDC signal.

I can help you but I need to do some research of what type of diesel injection system Ford uses. If you know, send me some links to speed things up. The HFS2v2 can read any DI signals. If all else fails, you can inject based on manifoild pressure.

mindblower
23-12-2011, 04:19 PM
huge thanks for info!
jumper has been added to inject by map sensor 0-5v by fords own sensor.

KushZen
06-12-2012, 07:59 AM
Pardon my ignorance if this has been stated before, but I just bought a HFS-3 Kit for my Nissan 350z. My flash tune allows me to change maps on the fly, however I don't think it works with the Aquamist failsafe map switcher. In any case, Am I able to wire a manual On/Off Switch to the HFS-3 system so that I can use a map WITH meth, and a map for daily driving WITHOUT meth to save methanol and gas mileage?

Richard L
06-12-2012, 04:56 PM
This can be done automatically by using the white and brown wire from the grey connector. (provided it is not used for something else already).

When you switch the system off at the dash gauge, the brown and white wire will go open circuit.

What type of signal is required for the flash to change map? A voltage or make/break contact to ground?

KushZen
12-12-2012, 09:36 AM
So basically, if I wire nothing to the white and brown wires, I can switch the Aquamist system off?

I'm not sure what kind of electrical signal is needed. The way we change maps is by holding down the cruise control set button while pressing cruise control cancel an X amount of times for the map we want to switch to.

Howerton Engineering
12-12-2012, 04:27 PM
You just use the button on the face of the gauge to turn the Aquamist on/off.

KushZen
12-12-2012, 10:39 PM
Well.. I feel like a complete idiot now. Thanks for the info guys!

Aviator_2004
17-04-2013, 07:51 PM
Hello Richard, I live in Belarus. I have a problem. help me to solve it, please. was purchased and installed Aquamis thfs-3 , confused RG 48 connector from fuel injector with connector RG 48 ECU . now nothing works. .dash gauge is off, the controller ECU is off. just click only time something(relay ecu?) once, when the power is turned.... please, may be necessary to make a diagnosis, how?

Richard L
17-04-2013, 11:42 PM
Does the gauge light up?

Aviator_2004
19-04-2013, 11:03 PM
no, Richard :(

Richard L
19-04-2013, 11:58 PM
I think the controller is no longer functioning due to mis-wiring so a repair is necessary. Please send the controller and gauge n-back to us. If it is repairable, it will not be charged since it is a relatively new system.

I will wait for it.

leecavturbo
28-05-2013, 06:54 AM
Any changes to schematic for v3?

Richard L
03-07-2013, 10:43 PM
The wiring is the same. A few configuration changes.

srt8-in-largo1
20-10-2013, 08:56 PM
2006 Chrysler 300 SRT8 (6.1L engine)

Can I install the HFS3-v3 out of the box on my car?

srt8-in-largo1
20-10-2013, 09:09 PM
Presently I am naturally aspirated but I have a Kenne Bell positive displacement supercharger that will be installed soon. However, I would like to install the HFS3-v3 before the install in order to become familiar with it. Once the SC is installed I plan to continue running the water/meth injection.

The Kenne Bell is a twin-screw "top mount" SC. That is, it sits on top of the engine replacing the intake manifold. Inside the SC are two anodized aluminum rotors and the associated mechanicals including steel bearing packs. Underneath the rotors is an aluminum aftercooler; the compressed air flows through this before entering the engine.

Q1: When the SC is installed I plan to inject water/meth pre-throttle body. Is this the optimum injection point for this system or should I inject post-throttle body?

Q2: Is methanol compatible with aluminum? Will I expect to see pitting and other corrosive effects on the anodized aluminum rotors and\or the aluminum aftercooler?

Q3: Will the steam or water vapor wash out the bearing packs in the SC?

Richard L
21-10-2013, 09:09 PM
I believe Kenne Bell should be able to give you a more accurate answer on Q2 and Q3.
Does Kennie Bell have customers that run alcohol, e85 etc pre S/C. Ethanol and methanol are very similar.

Q/A #1: Pre S/C will require more W/M as part of the cooling effect is absorbed by the S/C. It is possible to inject after the SC? I guess the next question would be does the w/m do the same for the piston and rings? Possible at a greater effect due to the elevated temperatures.

srt8-in-largo1
22-10-2013, 02:10 AM
Unfortunately the case seems to be SC companies conservatively saying NO to meth injection... and WMI companies aggressively saying YES to meth injection. It's difficult to have an honest wide-ranging conversation due to these folks hiding behind their vested interests.

Many folks I know have asked the question to Kenne Bell's technical support and have received conflicting answers depending on who, exactly, they spoke with. I believe the response has been further muddied by conversations that were not clear about whether or not tuning would be adjusted for meth injection.

Your answer to me is fair; I should be talking to Kenne Bell about this, however, for the reasons stated above I'm trying to expand the conversation. In any event, I will be spraying WM :-)

I ordered the HFS-2 through Jeff Howerton and very much look forward to installing this on my car. I will be the ONLY PERSON that I know of in the Hemi world who uses Aquamist, and I find this to be a shame. I've invited Jeff to join my online message board to introduce us to Aquamist, and I'd like to extend that invitation to you, Richard.

We have many members now running over 1,000 HP engines, and many more running over 500. As such, effective octane and the management of combustion temps is crucial, and I would like to see my fellow enthusiasts be familiar with and have the opportunity to buy the best meth system possible, which presently is Aquamist IMO.

Please consider joining and contributing to meth conversations at www.LXforums.com . As with all forums, there are rules for vendor solicitation, and I don't know much about all that, I would only like to see the Hemi world become more familiar with Aquamist.

I have a specific thread where it wouldn't be against the rules if you joined to discuss the technical aspects of PWM vs. PPS systems.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/f286/water%5C-meth-injection-pwm-vs-pps-344686/

Richard L
22-10-2013, 08:56 AM
It appears the SC companies want the benefits of WMI but not the responsibilities.

My view is the same as Kennie's, I would not want to be on the wrong side of an argument if things did not work out. No WMI maker has the technical resources to say categorically the WMI will not affect the SC adversely. I believe the some burden should be carried by the end use as they benefit from the usage. The WMI theory is sound, proven to be effective since 1940s on all automotive engine. Temperature is the biggest enemies to engine components if it cannot be maintained by the conventional water/radiator setup. This is particularly evident on supercharged and turboed engine when stretched. Ambient temperature, fuel quality also plays and important part on this.

Just a quick summing upon this topic, addition of water or addition fuel will reduce the combustion temperature directly and effectively. It will be your choice to make regardless of the engine or SC longevity. We merely give you another option.

I have to be a vendor to post on forums, I cannot do it any other ways. I am happy to continue to discuss this topic here.

srt8-in-largo1
22-10-2013, 07:11 PM
Forgive me if this has been asked and answered before, but can you explain how the 70% IDC and 30% MPS configuration works in the v3.0 of the HFS-2/3 systems?

Richard L
22-10-2013, 10:05 PM
100% IDC input will only produce 70% of the total flow
100% MPS input will only produce 30% of the total flow.

Does this make sense? I cannot think of any other way to explain this.

Richard L
22-10-2013, 11:06 PM
I went to the lxforum link you posted. It is weird no one replied to such an important performance gap between the PPS an PWM-V systems. Plenty of people looked in though.

Too complicated to understand or just uninterested? May be you have upset the PPS guys? It was quite an outspoken post.

srt8-in-largo1
23-10-2013, 02:34 AM
I guess I should have asked first of all, will I be getting a v3.0? I took it for granted when I ordered that only the latest version is shipping. Or is it possible that I'll get a v1.0 or v2.0? I hope 3.0 :o

So... when the system is configured for "70%IDC / 30% MPS" it is operating as a weighted function (?). I think this can get complicated without both of us sitting in front of a chalkboard together. If we had a fictitious engine whose IDC ramps from 12% to 80% and MPS ramps simultaneously from 0.5V to 4.5V, for example, is it safe to say that at each operating point along the way that some flow of WM is due to the IDC trigger and some is due to the MPS trigger? I think I'm thrown off course by your use of "100%" in your explanation.

Here is the real world concern. When I datalog in my car, many times I will see knock retard when RPM (and hence IDC) is low but engine load (and hence MPS) is high. If I triggered entirely from IDC, I would not have WM spraying in this condition where knock is present.

I like the idea of triggering from IDC, but there are conditions where I need MPS to trigger some spray when IDC may be below 12%. It *sounds* like the 70/30 setting is what I want... but I'm not sure!



I went to the lxforum link you posted. It is weird no one replied to such an important performance gap between the PPS an PWM-V systems. Plenty of people looked in though.

Too complicated to understand or just uninterested? May be you have upset the PPS guys? It was quite an outspoken post.

Thanks for looking! I posted that in the "Power Adder" section and most people who read there (the old timers) have been through the WM conversation many many times and are just not interested. New-timers who see it may not say anything due to their inexperience with meth systems in general.

I agree too that I may have upset the PPS guys... lol. Even though I'm in my 40's I still find occasion where I need to temper my statements! When I get my system from Howerton I'll post some pics and datalogs to try to get a conversation rolling there.

Regarding performance difference between PWM and PPS... do you have experimental data or is this theoretical only? I'm sure the Aquamist system runs more reliably due to the way the pump is controlled, but is there data showing better power?

PPS vendors now state their systems operate as high as 250 psi, some vendors reference 300 psi. I assume this is done to provide better atomization. Most of these systems use the Aquatec-5800 pump... can this pump be configured to run reliably at such pressures?

Howerton Engineering
23-10-2013, 05:01 AM
From what i have seen, the pumps don't actually run at those pressures. They are advertising "dead head" pressure. I have tested a few of the 200psi pumps from different vendors, they all ran within 10psi of the Aquamist pump once you started flowing. At very small jet sizes they do hit about 200psi, but go there nearly immediately after the pump turns on because for a pump that will put out 3700cc a minute free flow, 200cc of flow is dead head with a slight leak.

I have sat in Aquatec's engineering offices for lengthy discussions and to me they categorically said that the pumps cannot run at these pressures. Maybe a dead head spike, but not run.....It's advertising gimmicks. I haven't seen everything, but have yet to see a 250psi line pressure with a M10 or larger jet.

And trying to make them run at higher pressures actually makes they worse for the application. The spec they use makes them run slower(more pulsing) and draw double the amps of the Aquamist spec pump.

Richard L
23-10-2013, 08:09 AM
I guess I should have asked first of all, will I be getting a v3.0? I took it for granted when I ordered that only the latest version is shipping. Or is it possible that I'll get a v1.0 or v2.0? I hope 3.0 :o


You will get the latest, only v3 is available now.



So... when the system is configured for "70%IDC / 30% MPS" it is operating as a weighted function (?). I think this can get complicated without both of us sitting in front of a chalkboard together. If we had a fictitious engine whose IDC ramps from 12% to 80% and MPS ramps simultaneously from 0.5V to 4.5V, for example, is it safe to say that at each operating point along the way that some flow of WM is due to the IDC trigger and some is due to the MPS trigger? I think I'm thrown off course by your use of "100%" in your explanation.

Here is the real world concern. When I datalog in my car, many times I will see knock retard when RPM (and hence IDC) is low but engine load (and hence MPS) is high. If I triggered entirely from IDC, I would not have WM spraying in this condition where knock is present.

I like the idea of triggering from IDC, but there are conditions where I need MPS to trigger some spray when IDC may be below 12%. It *sounds* like the 70/30 setting is what I want... but I'm not sure!



I would wait until the system is installed and in operation. There are a few other options. Instead of using MAP sensor, you can input the throttle angle sensor. This will give you instant dose of water/meth based on user demand.

PS the system can inject based on 100%-IDC, 100%-MPS or 70/30.


Regarding performance difference between PWM and PPS... do you have experimental data or is this theoretical only? I'm sure the Aquamist system runs more reliably due to the way the pump is controlled, but is there data showing better power?

PPS vendors now state their systems operate as high as 250 psi, some vendors reference 300 psi. I assume this is done to provide better atomization. Most of these systems use the Aquatec-5800 pump... can this pump be configured to run reliably at such pressures?

Power at WOT make zero difference between the kits if you live your life in the quartermile tracks. For DD applications, the difference is huge,

I do get feedback from PWM-V converted users. Mainly the system more linear and does not bog the engine on low rpm and does not run-on during gear change. This confirms the theory is sound. More readings below:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1413320 (a few PPS WMI makers has responded)

Those claimed pressures are what the pump is capable of when dead headed. You would only have found that out after the purchase; The by-pass valve is actually set to between around 200-220 dead-headed. What else is there for a PPS system to shout about?

You can increase the pressure on the on the aquamist pump to beyond 250 psi by adjusting the set screw on the front of the pump if you wish. The pump will heat up quite quickly.

Two water tanks of the same capacity, one 30 feet tall and the other 18 feet. Open up the same drain tap on both, the water level of the 30 feet tank will drop faster.

srt8-in-largo1
24-10-2013, 01:17 AM
Thanks Jeff and Richard, I really appreciate all the info. It will take me a little while to traverse all the info in that NASIOC link!

I really look forward to running this kit.

Richard L
24-10-2013, 07:58 AM
For some unknown reason, aquamist is not well represented on the american v8 scenes. Most probably lack of magazine hypes. Another factor has to do with price. It costs less to make a PPS system with just an slow acting valve (off the shelf type).

You could probably tell me more.

boukman
26-05-2014, 08:10 AM
Hi,

Could you confirm my nozzle choice please?

4 x 1000cc F-injectors -> 4000cc (running ~65 F-IDC)
15% water -> 600cc
20psi boost -> 140psi pump pressure chart

I think 2 x 0.7mm (M3.9) nozzle is what I would need.

Am I right?

Thank you!

Richard L
26-05-2014, 10:46 AM
Please allow 10% system loss and some ceiling in case you need more.

Go for 2x 0.8mm instead.

boukman
16-06-2014, 10:41 AM
Hello,

What will be the best dual nozzle location on post-intercooler pipe? 1 or 2?

Regards.

Richard L
16-06-2014, 11:03 AM
The "2" is better, 3-6" apart.