RX7 rotary power, meth or water?

[RICE RACING]

It's good to see people with rotaries understanding water injection is the only way to make true reliable power ;)

Anyone in any doubts here is a thread (feel free to share and pass on) as to how well it works. Should be mandatory on all turbo rotaries :)

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=14063#post14063

^ 8000km of running at ~500bhp level over 80lt of WI used ........ that is (3+hours) at full power setting. And my original engine is like new. When rotaries at this level of power life span can be measured in seconds and minutes (at full power output) this WI just shows again why its the best technology man has ever engineered for the internal combustion engine :)

Hey Peter, thank for chiming in. There are still a great deal of people do not what water can do for making safe power. You have contributed a great deal already on this forum, keeping me up at soem nights.

Can you share some of the experiences on the effect of running 100% methanol instead of water. Most people on the RX7 club forum run pure methanol, do you think it is unnecessary where water or W50:M50 will do just as well? I am not familiar with rotaries.

Some one added the above in my post high lighted in bold.? I'll reply below.

100% Methanol is any inferior solution for the following reasons:

1> Increased knock.
2> Vastly Increased fluid usage to equal WI.
3> Quick fluid degradation over time.
4> Stress on system parts (corrosion, lack of lubrication, degrading all rubbers).
5> Tuning problems which greatly effect knock resistance.
6> QTY needed to equal majority WI mixtures or WI alone double to triple system weight!.
7> Excessive wash down of lubrication in engine.
8> FIRE hazard!
9> Narrow tuning window to stop knock far inferior to water or mixes of water
10> Totally not flexible (you have no meth then you are fucked!)! where as 50/50 W/M cars and and do run 100% water without any changes in tune or any set up changes! (the slightly leaner AFR setting is ideal for 100% water alone) so if your stuck somewhere no problem, just fill up on water ;) can't do this on 100% Meth set up!
(WI or 50/50 WI cars can run and make power from 10.2:1 AFR to 13.9:1 AFR) try that on pure meth add on set up like Americans preach and your rotary will be out in favor of a V8 conversion :( )
Methanol Injection is rubbish, but add water to the equation and its something that works, has been proven for a hundred years, and it THE best all round solution, I say the only real solution that is flexible, reliable, and has little excuses associated with its long term application in the real world.

I can't say why American after market automotive people are not with technology as it was developed during the war? To me it is crazy and simply points to lack of knowledge, education, and pure skill.

WI on its own works well, 50/50 by mass mixes with Methanol work in ALL situations, will never freeze, makes excellent power, and counters ALL of the negatives of running methanol alone. It is the complete solution. You can leave the fluid in mixed state for over a year exposed to air and it will always be consistent! (Unlike Methanol) that will degrade quickly and cause untold problems. Mixing 50/50 by mass it undergoes an exothermic reaction and its make up is permanently altered and it is very stable and consistent, giving almost all the water only attributes while being kinder to making power on fixed variables like boost, timing etc, and its easier if your system parts are not up to spec (like ignition capacity).

Methanol is just a cheap alternative and ill thought out (as are ANY alcohol fuels IMHO > E85 included). Its simple cause its easier to fire, but its horrendous to system parts, varies daily, store it too long and you will have a blow up machine BDC style!

The absolute ideal is gasoline main fuel, water/methanol in 50/50 ratio and injected at 40% to 25% of main fuel flow *BY MASS!!!*, it will make power on all set ups, be consistent, not rape any parts be it in your injection system or your engine.

It's not hard, you just need to follow what Frank Walker and many other Mechanical Engineers have been quoted on since early last century. A war was won with their brains V's today's internet forum wars of nobodies............... I know who I would rather believe and follow :)

[Richard L]

For years, 100% Methanol has been very popular on the rotary scene. What about water only?

Pete of Rice Racing of Australia, known to many in the Rotary community as a leading expert on 100% water injection on rotary. His approach is based on true and extensive experiments with the real world results will pick up the story from here...

W50:M50 appeared to be a good compromise for all-season applications.

[RICE RACING]

Thanks Richard :)

It's hard to recall all of the stuff I have worked on over the years, but it has covered the fastest class cars in drag racing both rotary and piston, street cars, circuit cars, and all kinds of weird and wonderful things in between.

The topic of what mixtures work and why is very interesting, most of it is covering ground that has already been researched to death. However giving it modern context is always of interest to newbies. I'll try to give some input on direct applications if people are interested to know more.

I have one customer who is running Methanol 100% as base fuel and uses water injection pre turbo to give him an advantage over other competitors :) it is a sensitive area though and I have learned many people hang off every word I type and love to copy..... though I am happy to discuss and give information that is redundant in my world, and a few steps back from what is current best practice :) but is a new thing for most people looking into this technology, it is great to see many people getting more into this proven science of water injection... AND RIGHTLY SO! THERE IS NOTHING ELSE IN THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE THAT HAS PROVEN TO MAKE ENGINES AS POWERFUL AND DURABLE ALL THE SAME TIME.

[MaD^94Rx7]

Awesome stuff! Thanks for the time you take in writing all this. True inspiration for anyone that wants to learn.

[RICE RACING]

Awesome stuff! Thanks for the time you take in writing all this. True inspiration for anyone that wants to learn.

No problem, I hope that more people get inspired.

Sir Harry Ricardo would be proud to know his pioneering research or first documented findings on Water Injection has influenced so many great men and wonderful engines over time from the War to Formula one constructors titles WI has won them all ;)

[buffrx7]

ok quick question rice i have a fd3s making 469hp on a mustang dyno i want to run only water just for safty purposes not to add more power the car is running the 10s in afr at full throttle...i have the kit installed right now but not currently using it nothing in tank....the question is should i just run water to have a safer engine and what injector do you think i should use the 130cc 315cc or the 550cc

[RICE RACING]

ok quick question rice i have a fd3s making 469hp on a mustang dyno i want to run only water just for safty purposes not to add more power the car is running the 10s in afr at full throttle...i have the kit installed right now but not currently using it nothing in tank....the question is should i just run water to have a safer engine and what injector do you think i should use the 130cc 315cc or the 550cc

10's AFR if you do not want to retune the only jet I recommend you use is 130cc for an extra margin of safety. Any larger will result in too much power loss.

[RICE RACING]

Here is a good one to look at, 34 deg C ambient conditions and ultimate validation of this science as applied to the rotary engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u44_xU-rCkY

No need for many words, but here is the real 'live action' commentary from the owner for those interested as well > http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/SeriesVIII_Charles.htm

[Richard L]

One exciting moment. Very nice.

[dlheman]

Now that's fast~!!

[RICE RACING]

Now that's fast~!!

Faster now, but of much more importance is reliability and even more so durability, nothing beats RR in these key area's. Any kent can go onto Arsebook and hype the fuck out of a mad max E85 fuel can carrying POS that proliferates the gen zero run interwebz, but scant few can claim to have fast real road rotaries or any engine type for that matter :)

http://www.riceracing.com.au/rides/SeriesVIII_Charles.htm
http://www.riceracing.com.au/Photos/100-200%205.671sec.jpg

[dlheman]

Faster?

Bloody hell mate I cannot imagine what that car must’ve felt like :O

But yeah, very impressive!!!

[RICE RACING]

Faster?

Bloody hell mate I cannot imagine what that car must’ve felt like :O

But yeah, very impressive!!!

Feels great according to customer, he has
630awhp EVO9
850bhp R34 GTR
modified R35 GTR
And none of these come close to the 13B RX7 (owners words) and backed up with data from the Life Racing and Syvecs electronics on them.

Currently we are up grading the R34 with an OS315 Tomei brand new motor to make it compete with the mighty Mazda, then no doubt the RX7 will need to lift itself however we are at the limits of 2WD (on semi slick rear tires) and the turbocharger is right on its speed limit.

So just more proof it was ever needed that WI can exceed any normal limits, and all without needing to fuck your car with an inferior comical E85 conversion :)

[dlheman]

After looking at the do and don't do of using E85 I came to the conclusion of E85 produced many hassles in maintenance.

It drinks like a mofo.

It requires earlier oil change intervals.

It will be difficult to start the engine in cold weather if there is a high Ethanol content.

It isn't particularly kind for the fuel line and injector.

If left for days it may be difficult to start the car.

But more tuner prefers it than water methanol injection (including my STI engine tuner). Is it easier to tune an engine using E85 than WMI such as Aquamist?

[RICE RACING]

It's just a fuel, and is no water injection. WI is superior in power production, engine longevity and car utilization.

You can teach common sense but you cant teach stupid.

[djfourmoney]

After looking at the do and don't do of using E85 I came to the conclusion of E85 produced many hassles in maintenance.

It drinks like a mofo.

It requires earlier oil change intervals.

It will be difficult to start the engine in cold weather if there is a high Ethanol content.

It isn't particularly kind for the fuel line and injector.

If left for days it may be difficult to start the car.

But more tuner prefers it than water methanol injection (including my STI engine tuner). Is it easier to tune an engine using E85 than WMI such as Aquamist?

Lots of WRX/STI tuners are hostile to WMI for some unknown reason.

But you see similar fights all over the internet when the people that can afford to spend the money have a problem with people that find affordable solutions to the same problem.

There are camps on both sides of three debates I see -

Clutch Slip vs No Slip
Nitrous + Turbo vs Turbo Only
E85/Methanol vs 50/50 Water Injection

Clutch Slip saves parts and you'll run faster but you can't get people to grasp that.

Nitrous and Turbos work great, better than either on their own. But too many add a level of complication that most people aren't comfortable with.

E85 is easy if you able to upgrade your fuel system to compensate. But as you say none of the negatives are ever talked about.

This is because water-methanol injection is generally affordable, but the days of burned up pumps and burnt pistons are fresh in the mind of many people.

Ironically it's because the majority of failures are linked to easily solved things and I can think of two instances.

Guy runs 100% methanol, can't afford to upgrade his fuel system properly so he increases the amount of methanol injected into the motor. The pump isn't designed for 100% methanol, it dries out the seals and the pump fails just at the time he needs the power (during a race) and boom.

That has given rise to Rodney's company Alky Injection actually and other companies that modify pumps to handle 100% methanol.

But just as that happen, E85 became widely available because of incentives from the Federal Government. As E85 pumps started to dot corn country lots of people said the F with methanol injection, not many people were running 50/50 that E85 took off. Then people started posting more impressive numbers made with E85 that were nowhere what most single nozzle methanol systems are capable of.

So when you say you want to run 2000cc direct port + (500cc) 5th nozzle post intercooler or pre-turbo people look at you like you turned green all of a sudden.

The Tuning School did a series of videos and articles on Engine Labs and tried all the popular racing fuels and water injection.

50/50 beat all the unleaded racing fuels and it wasn't really that close. 100% methanol beat everything but VP C85 alone. Ironically VP C85 with 100% methanol made the most power overall. This was done only with modifying the ignition map and fuel trims. Boost was kept static (supercharged Corvette C7)

A turbocharged car would have made huge numbers because of the easy boost adjustment.

I plan on doing some similar testing and sharing it online.

[RICE RACING]

It's very well known that alcohols are prone to detonation, this is fact.
Forget about the octane rating or latent heat benefits the cunts detonate and do so in spectacular fashion, and then dumb arse commentators wonder 'why' it happened.

Water does NOT detonate.

[dlheman]

Yes I saw the video too.

I just think there are way too much things to go wrong with E85.

I think what gives a bad reputation to WMI are those cheap WMI kit that is just way too simple in its operation to deliver a reliable and precise injection all time everytime.

And add to that the wrong nozzle location. For some reason most installed the nozzle so close to the manifold usualy just before or right after the throttle body. And using a big nozzle. There is just no way the wmi can be equally distributed to all cylinders.

[ozynigma]

The absolute ideal is gasoline main fuel, water/methanol in 50/50 ratio and injected at 40% to 25% of main fuel flow *BY MASS!!!*, it will make power on all set ups, be consistent, not rape any parts be it in your injection system or your engine.


Hi, this is my first post here. I will start a thread for my build shortly.

So I did some calculations and the recommendation of 25-40% by mass would be around 1.15cc to 1.85cc per hp, compared to the general recommendation of 1.0 to 1.5cc per hp. The middle of your range is the top of the general range.

So is it OK to err on the side of more water methanol mix rather than less? How much is too much for a daily driven street car?

My application will be a 400 crank hp MPS at around 24psi boost. Maybe my next car will have a real Mazda engine ;)

[RICE RACING]

Yes I saw the video too.

I just think there are way too much things to go wrong with E85.

I think what gives a bad reputation to WMI are those cheap WMI kit that is just way too simple in its operation to deliver a reliable and precise injection all time everytime.

And add to that the wrong nozzle location. For some reason most installed the nozzle so close to the manifold usualy just before or right after the throttle body. And using a big nozzle. There is just no way the wmi can be equally distributed to all cylinders.

Fit for purpose solution below, car is fast, reliable, and durable ;)
https://i.imgur.com/09wu44Z.jpg

[dlheman]

Very nice!

Is that the higher flowing FAV?

[RICE RACING]

Yeah it is.
For the RX7 we have an upgraded system with same valve set up and larger pump, and some more locations. No wholesale increases in power as it limited by the turbocharger just some refinement and keeping on the pioneering work of having the ONLY durable hi powered true road going rotaries in the world ;)

[dlheman]

Looking great mate.

Truly inspiring!

[RICE RACING]

Looking great mate.

Truly inspiring!

Even more inspiring is they still go = durability.
The R34 is close enough or more than the ever quoted willy nilly ~1000bhp mark, and the RX7 is at least as fast and according to the owner actually faster, he is a performance agnostic so no vested interests here, just facts.

Below is a direct comparison within a few days of each other.
Please note, my actual physical power measure is factual, to give it some context a turbo Lotus I put on a Mainline chassis dyno through the tires will make about 420rwhp and on my measure will do 380rwhp, so make of the figures what you will I don't care for dyno racing pissing contests :) too many bullshit figures out there and lets not even talk about BS American standards on hype/guess machines they use !

Regardless, measure the acceleration at 200kph and compare them and you quickly separate the hype from reality......

RX7 on the left, R34 GTR on the right. Both cars stupidly fast both still running WM50 FTMFW! For those that are technically minded, same turbo on each car, both well exceeding the listed turbo upper speed limit (we establish our own through testing). Rotary engine does about 90bhp/lt/bar and piston around 100bhp/lt/bar. Turbo is a balance of decent power but with true road going ability as proven below.
https://i.imgur.com/X9GE79t.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oKFwSzX.jpg

[RICE RACING]

https://youtu.be/n6c7dhYsfZY

Too much power with WM50, means you need the best electronic control and calibration to match ;)

[RICE RACING]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hlbcnjc53mE&feature=youtu.be
https://i.imgur.com/NYR4tsX.jpg

Though I would put together a little bit of real knowledge gained over the years, this is but a small sample I have (know a bit about rotaries lol).... lots of it is pertinent to any engine really though, specially those piston engine types who try to imitate rotary idle characteristics with big cams :)

Some of it is of relevance in that you can go 'too big' and end up with an engine that is overly sensitive to map/tip ratio, also one that is peaky and generally a shitbox overall in every category, narrow power band, excessive fuel use, not as drivable etc.

[sambeeb]

Just getting back on the site after being out of the loop for a while. In the past, I know you were a big advocate for pre compressor injection , but I cant see it on either of these cars. Of course there's every chance I haven't been able to pick it up in the pics and it is there. So just wondering if you've changed tack a bit with regards to the best injection points?

[RICE RACING]

Just getting back on the site after being out of the loop for a while. In the past, I know you were a big advocate for pre compressor injection , but I cant see it on either of these cars. Of course there's every chance I haven't been able to pick it up in the pics and it is there. So just wondering if you've changed tack a bit with regards to the best injection points?

Used allot of different set ups and each application is unique in what it requires for the optimal result. What is best as to location? I am not smart enough to answer that as the more I know the more I realize how little I knew. I've tried allot of systems and points to administer the WM50, currently the ones pictured above are what I generally use.

[RICE RACING]

Injection mixtures?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDgmhAfrcr4&list=PLzf2Z_YC4LypwFn1w1_jsJ6ivNz_nRGzR

There is so much miss information 'out there' not just the obvious comment of the internet age but even the 'empty vessel' types that make allot of noise and not much action, been the same over the years only the preferred medium of communication has changed a bit :)

In short click the link above and learn a bit about how basics of combustion and engines work, then think a little more about measurement, we have all fallen for the hype and in some cases years of using the wrong types of sensors and equipment, having led us all down the garden path.

The humble EGT probe is a device not used by many, when employed its poorly understood and utilized, even by the companies who make them! (as I have found out).

[HenryM]

Fit for purpose solution below, car is fast, reliable, and durable ;)
https://i.imgur.com/09wu44Z.jpg

Hi,

I noticed there are lots of air bubbles in the lines.
Do they go away after some time or is it normal with direct port setup?
Also, I'm curious how the nozzles hold up against high engine heat.

-Henry

[RICE RACING]

First run of the day always on the initial application with the air pockets being compressible result in a high reading on the indicated water flow rate (~22% above normal flow range), this then after ~0.5 seconds (air bubbles gone) is back to normal.

NOTE: Never found it in reality being a problem, even on more knock sensitive engines, it does not show up on traces for this first initial application anyway (car has to sit over night to develop them). So its a non issue. I don't know what others do? but every car I look after has Life Racing based ECU with per engine cycle per cylinder constant knock logging and we don't see any ill effects.

On that note you do know when the WI system is not set up right, so on a quick transient reapplication especially when running 36psi on a rotary engine on the street with pump petrol, you can have the engine controller shutting things down if the knock level gets too high to preserve the parts in that chamber.

All in all though, as stated that question of yours I hope I explained is not a problem in reality, it does not trip to open flow limit in the Aquamist which defines if you have a leak in the system, and it has no end effect seen on knock level either, not from what I have seen anyway. Based on ~50,000km testing on multiple cars over 3 years or so, all running on knock limit and over turbo speed limits 'highly stressed'.

[Rub20B]

Efr91 or 83 on this car? Damn moves (Y)

[RICE RACING]

https://i.imgur.com/PpDXABo.jpg