Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

[Dust]

Most forums are full of Pps kits. Is there a reason for the lack of PWMV kits on diesels, big or small?

[Richard L]

Probably for reasons listed below:

1. We did not market many PWM systems to the diesels because older diesels have little electronic controller for us to read the load signal from.
2. We have not produced a boost based, PWM system until the HFS-4.
3. We are unable to compete with the PPS system marketed around 200-300 dollars.
4. Unlike Gasoline engine, Diesel engine is basically a excess-air system, if you want power, just add fuel. Fuel can be diesel, cooking oil or any alcohol.
5. We will be looking into this market this year, it will be hard work to change the current trend of thoughts.

It amazed me that people one particular forum rarely venture out of their comfort zone, such as trying out newer technologies, or simply visit other forums. Do you think the PWM system will benefit the diesel community?

[Dust]

3. We are unable to compete with the PPS system marketed around 200-300 dollars.

Some are spending up to $800 for the stage 3 blah blah blah stuff.


It amazed me that people one particular forum rarely venture out of their comfort zone, such as trying out newer technologies, or simply visit other forums. Do you think the PWM system will benefit the diesel community?

Sounds like the turbo buick crowd. The only kit that works on TBs is the Alkycontrol kit. Nothing else works. Which forum are you referring to?


I think it will benefit, but I think that without some incentive, it will be a tough sale. The main focus of diesel owners, big diesel owners, is HP, MPG, and flow. The big power diesels go with belt driven pumps putting out 600 psi to overcome boost pressure. With the stage 3 setups that include two nozzles that trigger separately, I don’t see the single stage setup of the HFS-4 having a whizbang factor. I think that an HP gain compared to a PPS system, and an MPG gain would be necessary. I don’t know if efficiency would matter much, as they run big tanks anyway. For the smaller stuff, not so much in the US, I would think a DI PWI-1 would be perfect. Don’t need that much flow for a 120hp diesel, and mounting the small pump would be much simpler than a big aquatic.

[Richard L]

Forums such as the topics on cummins, GM, banks and diesel trucks.

Gasoline engine requires good control of AFR to maintain consistant power. Diesel has plenty of air, power output is directly proportional to amount fuel dump into the engine. For that reason, injecting the precise amount of water/methanol is not as important, privided the EGT is under control.

Manifold pressure in excess of 100psi requires (as mentioned by you) requires a machanically driven pump. Those application is only a small proportion to the norm. I think the market we willbe aiming for is the modern DI diesel where the PWM system will excel and gives good consistant results. I totally agree with your marklet analysis.

The DI tecnology has brought SI (spark ignition) and diesel enigne closer. Most SI/DI engines use the excess-air method for cruising and mid throttle by having the throttle plate fully open and use lamdba sensors to target afr.

[Dust]

I think that a second stage activation would be a good idea, although the gain might help in that area. The area under curve if you could increase power better than a PPS, and show lower flow might be a seller, or just easier to tune. I know that you mentioned problems with using map based injection while tuning rpm maps on EVOM or nabisco. It will take a bit to get oil burners to buy something more expensive than what they have, but MPG and dyno maps will probably sell it. Ability to start injection earlier to reduce fuel usage without flooding would be nice. Sending you a pm about something else.

[Richard L]

The HFS-4 is basically a 2-stage controller.

Most OE diesel engines uses a small turbo for quicker spool-up reason. The HFS-4 will injection based on Boost first and followed by IDC. The addition input of rail pressure will further aid the water/fuel ratio accurancy.

I would leave the oil burners alone. I agree the PWM system is more suited for day to day modern diesels.

[Dust]

How would the failsafe be handled? I don't know how to trigger a failsafe for a diesel. The more boost at the same fueling the less EGTs. What would the failsafe trigger? Boost cut? Do modern diesels have a map switch?

On another note, I think that dynamic range would be a good selling point for bigger diesels.

[Richard L]

I have not worked on the diesel failsafe yet, It willnot be easy to interrupt a mechanical fuel enrichment component. The modern diecesl may be easier, just reduce the throttle angle sensor signal or foll the rail pressure sensor.

If we were to introduce a diesel system, it will be for the Di-common rail trype diesels.

[Dust]

How about an HFS2v2? All the features, minus the failsafe. Post some flow differences, that might help.

[Richard L]

The HFS2-v2 is well priced and will perform all the functions of the H3 and H4.

I am not sure which market to target, performance, enconomy or tolling. Do you know which is the most common?

[Dust]

Performance and towing go hand in hand I would say. The dynamic range of the FAV is what? PPS is 2X?. Giving the user the chance to activate a nozzle lower than they could with a PPS system (more injection, less fuel = economy), and being able to flow more up top than a PPS system with the same turn on, would be good for towing and performance.

[Richard L]

The dynamic range of the FAV on all our HFS-xxx is over 10:1. If we extend the starting point at a lower duty cycle, is can be over 100:1.

A typical PPS system starts at 25% pump duty cycle and finishes at 100% DC. Below 25% DC, the pump may not start expecially the lines are pressurised.

1. The pressure change between those two points are 60psi to 250psi.
2. The flow change between those two points are 250cc to 500cc/min.

Therefore the dynamic rannge (DR) is x2 at best. The DR will reduce under the following conditions:

3. A check valve is added
4. Against boost pressure
5. The pump is unable to maintain the same pressure at higher flow demand.

Conclusion: At best, a PPS system will only attain a DR of 1 to 1.7x


I believe your comments made good sense, the PWM valve system is more suitable for the diesel than I first thought. Thank you for pointing that out.

[Dust]

For those who want economy, reduce the IDC startup point, you have discussed it before for someone with a petrol with huge injectors. Allow fuel to be replaced at low load states. Since diesels have gotten more complicated, the ability to tune them like a gasser (i.e. ECU load based instead of pressure based from the IP) has become the norm, the tuning for a kit would need to be based on fuel flow, rather than pressure. The DR will allow this (low load states, low spray, with enough left over up top) to happen.

PPS systems get around the DR with multiple stages. But, a second stage adds $100 + on top of a kit ($20 nozzle, $10 holder, $55 solenoid, $25 hobbs switch, $5 Y-fitting, $1-3 hose). Add this price to the cost of a progressive kit ($360 for a DO kit), and the HFS-2 is right in line.

If you want to sell to the power hungry, it should be as simple as enlarging your intank fitting to a 3/8”, and running 10-12mm hose to the pump. I did this because of a weak pump, but as

Howerton
http://howertonengineering.com/2010/10/dual-fcm-hfs-6-system/

Alkycontrol, You, Labonte, and others have said, bigger hose pre-pump allows for less stress on the pump at all rates. If they want to go real big, mass produce (maybe not mass produce, but allow the choice) for the two nozzle/valve kit like the above hyperlink shows.
Have you considered bigger jets? Like in the 10-14 gph/600-1000cc/min range? The real price of nozzles has gotten high in the last few years, with DO at $20 plus $8 holder, and Coolingmist at $37 for nozzle, and $14 for the two fittings. 6.7L diesel at 50-75+psi can drink A LOT of water. Buying different nozzles to figure out what is needed can be expensive. At a certain point the big boys go gear-driven
http://www.scheiddiesel.com/display_part/2782.php

but that is beyond your scope anyway.

Consider longevity. Some diesel drivers in the US will have the kit installed, and it will be on 80%+ percent of the time. Some will only use it for pulling or drag racing. I know of a member on another forum that has logged 200K miles in 2 years, killed a pump, melted two controllers, then built his own controller after modifying a snow controller with a ridiculous heatsink that still didn’t work. Your pump is designed to run all of the time, which will be nice, but what about the controller and the valve? Can it take 50% duty cycle for 4-6 hours constant?And finally, since this has become a novel rather than a post, don’t try to hype it up. Not that you have in the past, but… The numbers are in your favor. Data will sell the kit. Flow curves, cc/min comparisons at different load states, and pricing will sell the kit. Make sure they understand that they don’t need a $1000 Snow MPG-MAX with two nozzles because one nozzle with the AM kit can flow at 5-50 times the range of a PPS system. Start with the HFS-2, because you don't have a failsafe figured out.

As a side note, and something you should feel free to dismiss, is to consider NPT and English based fittings and hose. I know here in Japan, everything is metric, and I have to bring over English fittings if I want to change things, but I know that when looking for 1/4” to M5 fittings in the US to install on the used HSV I found, I had to spend quite a bit of time looking, and had to go to some sketchy place in an industrial park that purchased surplus fittings. I know that it will play with logistics for you, but for those who already have a US based PPS system, the main problem is that nothing we have can convert over. The pump is already NPT, and the 1/8 NPT fitting that you use for the nozzle holder is getting there. I have some 1/8 NPT to 6mm OD quick connects, but that is because I am here in Japan and can walk down the street.
Telling Americans to sell the kit they have and buy yours might be the smartest thing for them if all they have is an as purchased kit, but if they have picked up a lot of parts over the years, it will be difficult to get the money back for some of it. I have 10 nozzles from m0.5 up to m15 that I can convert to an aquamist kit if I want to, but some may not see it that way.

I’m convincing myself to buy a TDI in 10 months and do a PPS to PWM-V test. Will the HFS-2v2 be able to do most of what the HFS-4 can do?

[Richard L]

DO two-stage kit @$460, only $35.00 below the HFS-2. Our kit compares favoritably in terms of dynamic range.

Based on the HFS-2, we just need to actively maintaining the line pressure by PWM'ing the pump, keeping the heat dissipation low. We might justy call it HFS-2D. I can also see the advantage of track fuel fuel instead of boost. Most modern diesel ramps into full boost at the slighest touch of throttle. So tracking boost is a non-starter.

NPT is imperial (inched), used main in imperial hose sizes such as 1/4", 5/32, etc. BSP is used widely for all metric hoses. So if Japan is Metric, BSP is common there?

I am not keen on NPT fitting because I cannot use o-ring seals at the mating surfaces. Using plumbers tape (PTFE) can cause all sort of clogging problem is a small piece of torn tape is allow to travel towards the valve or the jets. We use NPT on the jet adaptor for the ease of adjusting the depth or thin wall charge pipes.

The HFS-2/3 is due for a version upgrade, we can introduce these options if we decided to go into the diesel market. Alternatively we might just offer a brand new Diesel system with EGT probe. We now have a 1.2mm nozzle flowing ~650cc/min @150psi

With the modern diesel, we can easily alter the boost or reduce power by trimming fuel upon failsafe activation. One thing I do want to know badly, what is the most attractive feature a diesel drive want. It is quite easy to figure out what the turbo/gasoline drivers want.

[Dust]

Went fishing...

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1784970

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?p=4574456

[Dust]

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=15095

http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_users/7175-water_injection_system_my_land_cruiser.h tml

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/viewthread.php?tid=5027

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9751014871/m/2391054691/p/8

Not that they would necessarily be buying from you, but how about a kit similar to the howertown motorcycle/PWI-2 called the WVO water meth kit. Seems to them the lower the pressure the better.

[Richard L]

Still reading through them. Good market research links. I wonder if there is any updates on those people since their posting few years ago.

It appears people are looking for a simple kit as lowest possible price. This market is largely comprised of kit cost vs mpg gain. I remember reading a post someone wanted a refund of a $100 WI system after 6 months because it did not made the claimed 7%+ mgp improvement. It only made 5%.

On the turbo/gasoline market, people are more incline to spend more money related to power gain. I need to think hard before going into this market. Very different to what we used to.

The PWI-2 will be out of their price range and a FAV is added.

[Dust]

Those are not the passenger car market. There aren't alot of diesel cars in the US yet.

the big truck people are running as much fuel as possible, and need to drop the EGTs.

The veggie market is wants the cheapest possible, even washer fluid pump would be fine.

The passenger diesel will have to come from your side of the pond.

Watch this one I guess from your side

http://www.tdocuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=12276

[Richard L]

Looking at the market closer, there are well categories. I believe the only market our system fits in is the "passenger" type.

This is the market I have been working on. The more modern DI based diesel. Failsafe interface is very accessible. Within this market, There is a significant proportion of people, although small, wants more performance.

[blue]

I would be interested in looking at kit for the new f56 mini sd 2.0ltr bmw engine
Not sure if jeff has considered the petrol one yet, but looking at the previous r53/56 kits/tanks he has already made I wouldn't be surprised if it's on his radar

To give this post some context Been running a hfs4 on my r53 for a few years so not coming to this cold,
but might be selling kit complete with the car, although I could transplant,
Will be looking for more performance, whilst keeping good mpg

The SD is on order so I don't know yet if the tank will transplant into the space in the trunk, will update shortly
Will start a new thread if it looks possible.

[blue]

Well sold the hfs4 complete with my r53 mini so I need to start again from scratch

Which way to go now?

Will my 2014 oil Burner need more flow ? ( than the r53 mini)
I ask as would like to avoid trunk mount if at all possible
Seems most of what I read is truck related

Is it possible to make a Frankenstein kit from a new hfs 4 controller
And an legacy 1s system and pump ? (I have a new shiny one)
Or will buying ad-hoc bits and bobs work out the same

[Richard L]

The HFS3 is good for the R53.

The water pump is not hermetically sealed, so you are risking the life of the pump if you put it in the engine bay. We don't warrant it.

I really cannot take this Frankenstein kit project up, it is extremely time consuming, sorry.


Here is a diesel that worked well with aquamist:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1181962&highlight=aquamist&page=3

[david_hajes]

Why don't you use SI units ;-)

It reminds me life in UK...drawings in imperial units, CNC machines in metric units, new drawings mix of imperial/metric

you British sure love chaos what I have seen over 6.5 year ;-)

In Europe is many norms such as DIN, CSN...but we always use ISO standards wit SI units for international manufacturing and trade.