Pump priming?

[yokimazoku]

I have the HFS4 kit and and today i was idling for awhile then turned the car off then back on and the pump randomly turned on and stayed on. No flow showed up on the gauge and the low level light blinked for a second then went away. I turned the car off and then back on again and it didnt do it again. I also noticed that when i turn the car on the pump turns on for a split second then off. It does the same thing when i am turning the car off also. Is this pump failure? Also if i turn the key just right and hold it there i can get the pump to stay on. But now flow comes out of the nozzle.

[Richard L]

Did the "threshold" led came on when this happened? Is it a DI engine?

[yokimazoku]

This is a DI engine. Mazdaspeed 3 to be exact. Im not sure if the thres light came on or not i didnt check. I did just go to the car and put the key in position 2 and wait for the gauge to show it was ready then i went slowly down to position 1 and the green F-IDC light came on for a split second and turned off. No thres light came on at anytime. Also the pump came on as well but no flow from the nozzle. The F-IDC light turns off no matter what but the pump i can get to stay on if i hold the key just right coming from position 2 to position 1.

[Richard L]

I am not familiar with the key positions, please explain to me:

Can I assume...
key position 0 = radio off and engine off
key position 1 = radio on and engine off
key position 2 = pre-crank and engine run
key position 3 (biased) = pre-crank

[yokimazoku]

ill try to explain.
key position 0 = engine off radio off/ just put key
key position 1 = radio on engine off/ key console says "ACC"
key position 2 = pre-crank engine not running/ key console says "on"
key poistion 3 = engine running

Going from position 1 to 2 turns the gauge on. Going to position 2 to 3 starts the car.

[Richard L]

Great to have to modes clarified.

So recap:

- p1 to p2 .... system works as designed

- p2 to p1 ...... system behaves strangely such as the pump stays on if you hold the key. At no time the threshold led is on?

I asked this because the pump is enabled only when the threshold led is triggered. Please confirm this again.

[yokimazoku]

That is correct. When i turn my key from p2 to p1 right in the middle of this turn *between p2 and p1* the pump will turn on for a split second. If i hold the key in this position the pump stays on. At no point did the thres light illuminate. I should also note that i get that thump sound as well from the pump i believe. But i was told that the sound is normal if the controller and pump are wired into different power sources. I wonder if its possible my controller is turning off but the pump isn't.

[Richard L]

Lets see if we can isolate the source of problem.
Unplug the green harness, assuming you are using the di input. Let me know if p2-> p1 problem still exists?

[yokimazoku]

I tried unplugging the green wire and the problem is still there. Then i plugged the green wire back in and tried unplugging the blue wire and the problem went away.

Both test done multiple times and it went like this. With car complete off no key in the ignition. I unplugged the green wire turned the key the p2 and waited for the gauge to show it was ready then went down to p1. Then repeated same steps for the blue wire.

[Richard L]

One less thing to be concerned with.

Lets delve deeper...

Please check the voltage on test pin 5 against ground on key positions 0,1,2,3.

[yokimazoku]

I also replaced the fuse on the relay and problem is still there. Maybe a bad relay?

[Richard L]

It is a possibility. A sticky one? But too consistent. Are the two ground wire from the molex power connector secure?

Please let me know the result of pin 5 (same as the red wire of the grey harness). The system is controlled by this wire (12V to power the system on).

[brightside]

My pump runs for a few seconds as i turn power off to my R56 Mini just as the original poster describes. Is this normal?

[Richard L]

I am not sure. Can you take a quick measurement for me on the controller.

The system is controlled by the red wire of the grey connector. If you can measure the voltage of test point #5 during the switching off period. I like to know if there is a voltage there that may cause the pump to run on.

[brightside]

I will try to take this reading for you tomorrow.

What do you mean your not sure its normal?

[Richard L]

Normally the system will switch off when 12V is removed from the red wire of the grey harness. Sometime car makers continue to power up the 12V for a few seconds to inspect the sensors after the ignition key is turned off.

This is the period the aquamist system gets a weird reaction. Please also take a look of the threshold led on the controller if it is triggered during this period.

[brightside]

Yes, there is voltage.

NOTE: My car is wired as per your diagram identically.

[Richard L]

There is a voltage: need to clarify a bit more please measure these voltages:

Journey start:
1. Ignition key on "off"
2. Ignition key on "accessory"
3. Ignition key on "pre-crank"
4. Ignition key on "run" at idle

End of journey:
5. Ignition key on "accessory" or "stop running"
6. Ignition key on "off"

There is something strange going on. The drawing provided by us is "preliminary" so your feedback is important for us to improve the drawing. Until someone like yourself posting it up, I cannot make alternation.

Basically if you can find a switched 12V that will go to "zero" volt and test pin #5 when you switch off the engine, that will be perfect.

[brightside]

I'll go more into detail tonight when i get off work. Sorry for slacking. It was just a quick measurement by myself last night.

Even so, this isn't really harmful to the system?

Appreciate the effort.

[Richard L]

No harm to the controller.

[yokimazoku]

Ive been away for awhile and i dont have the means to test this :( in the mean time I noticed something else weird. On the diagram for the mazdaspeed gen 1 the red wire says to plug into the ignition relay with the pin on the PCM being 1AY. When i look at my PCM layout 1AY is different. 1AY is +12V from ignition switch, PJB F69, 20A. I noticed that if i have the car in precrank and let the gauge be fully functional. Then i try to roll up my window on the driver side after it is all the way up i will throw a body control module engine error and the pump will start going off as long has i keep trying to roll the window up. WTF IS GOING ON! I tried connecting the red wire to the ignition relay but its not a 12v so i get no power at all on that wire. Take a look at this diagram is matches the one i have for my car http://hackedecu.com/2007-mazdaspeed3-ecu-pinout

[yokimazoku]

Note that the window issue only happens in precrank. If the car is running this doesn't happen. If i have the gauge off and im in precrank this issue doesn't happen. Only in precrank with the gauge on. By on i mean the button is pushed an its lit.

[yokimazoku]

Oh just found out the PBJ stands for passenger juntion box which is basically the body control module! Well im guessing its no coincidence that's the error i get since 1AY is the wire I'm tapping which has the PJB on it also. Now I know 1AY isn't the right wire i should be tapping so which one is? The only other 12v i have on the PCM is 1BA though it's only a 10A.

[Richard L]

Thanks for the input. These are information most welcomed. I check with most of the existing diagram people have kindly submitted to me in the past.

I think the alternative connection to 1AY would be 2BE or 2BF. They are fuel injector relay related. Let me know if it works.

[yokimazoku]

Richard you are a lifesaver thanks so much i will give that a try and see what happens. I have to work today but afterwards that is the first thing on my to do list. Ill post up the results hopefully positive! Thanks again! :)

[Richard L]

If the result is positive, I will change the drawing on here.

The factory diagram does say much. Especially about the window open variation.

[yokimazoku]

Okay so preliminary results are in. Switched the wire over to 2BE and as expected i no longer get the window problem and no check engine light! However the original problem remains :( Going from p2 to p1 the pump goes off for a split second. Now I dont think this matters but it might. The red wire from the pump goes directly to the battery. Then i taped that wire for the red input wire on the controller and put a 10A fuse in there. Would that cause my problem?

[yokimazoku]

Okay so I've battled with false flow for a long time. I've even got my wires wrapped and everything. But it only solved about 95% of my false flow or what i called "slow to go away flow" because it would get stuck then go away after the unit triggered again. After switching to this new 2BE i went on a quick highway cruise and triggered the unit at least 15 times. In the past this is the test I've used to see if my false flow was gone and every time it would show up at least once in my testing. This time I got no false flow so I'm very excited about that. I'm curious to why that is but oh well I won't question good results. I hope it's permanent I have a lot of driving to do the next few days so I will let you know what happens.

[Richard L]

This is very good news.

Both terminals. according to the factory wiring diagram, provide 12V at pre-crank position. I will update and change the drawing this weekend.

Thanks for the feedback.