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View Full Version : Pump starts then stops within a second. MKVI GTI - HFS-4


maskari_gti
12-03-2015, 05:55 AM
Hello everyone,

I've had issues with my setup not long after getting it all set. Tuner/workshop is 500kms away from where I live so I can't just drive there whenever I face problems.

It started with leaks from the elbows, bad installation of the nozzle in the TBP and not a smooth rate of flow from looking at the gauge.

I recently faced an issue where the pump starts to pump once I hit the operating boost but then stops within a second! I moved the jumper to DFS and logged my car to see if there's any Inlet Air Temperature drop but there wasn't much as it used to be. Plus I've got a big amount of timing pull which tells me that there's not spraying into the engine!

I don't drive my car no more as there's no more joy with all this rubbish going on. All I do is drive it to only log it after a fix to see if there's any change.


Car and Setup:
- MKVI GTI
- HFS-4
- 2 Nozzles: 1.Throttle body pipe. 2.Throttle body spacer.


http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/IMG_4246_zpszqmjjmw3.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/IMG_4246_zpszqmjjmw3.jpg.html)

Richard L
12-03-2015, 09:25 AM
1. Can you post a picture of the underside of the circuit board. I like to see the soldering mods.

The settings of the jumper look good to me.

2. A picture of the jet and FAV.
3. Place of purchase?
4. Which wiring diagram did you follow?

I can help you, no need to travel 500km.

maskari_gti
13-03-2015, 07:09 AM
Thanks alot Richard.

I managed to quickly take these pics. I was in a rush, so I couldn't open up the controller to take a pic. Will do that tomorrow once I leave work. I found out that the nozzle on the TBP leaks out. Mind the dust, it's always like this here in the Middle East.

I bought my kit from Abu Dhabi, UAE and they did the installation. So i believe that they used the TSI diagram for my my car specifically.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/a301f1c1-7df6-4885-bc9e-770dc3c03856_zpszw0iwkk4.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/a301f1c1-7df6-4885-bc9e-770dc3c03856_zpszw0iwkk4.jpg.html)
http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/4dcb5396-3608-4977-849d-d814bc4d2c21_zpshb9dxrte.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/4dcb5396-3608-4977-849d-d814bc4d2c21_zpshb9dxrte.jpg.html)

Richard L
13-03-2015, 08:42 AM
OK, I will wait until tomorrow for the underside of the controller.

Regarding the nozzle leak, it is an installation problem may be it just need tightening up.

The electrical connector of the FAV appeared to be broken, in time the wires will corrode and the system will stop working.

maskari_gti
13-03-2015, 10:33 AM
I'll take the intake off and have a look at the FAV. In case the wires are corroded, what could be done? Please don't tell me to buy a new one as they are quite pricey.

And regarding the pics, Ill send them tomorrow as soon as I get my hands on the car.

Richard L
13-03-2015, 02:50 PM
Fill it up with silicon after inspection. Not the whole connector, just the opening section.

Richard L
13-03-2015, 02:52 PM
As regarding the flow indication at idle, it is most probably due to interference. Are are mechanically minded? If yes, I will suggest a solution for you. BTW, who was your installer?

maskari_gti
13-03-2015, 04:36 PM
I guess yea. I've installed some engine and suspension mods on my car my self. Fixed few leaks on the wmi as well. What are your suggestions?

I installed the kit in Tensai tuning and even had my K04 conversion there too. The system was working fine but then a problem dragged another problem and here am I now spending more time fixing rather than enjoying the drive.

Here's a video of how it goes when the jumper was on the DHB:-
Aquamist HFS-4 Issues (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uASWpDB4FQ&feature=youtu.be)

Richard L
13-03-2015, 06:26 PM
OK, lets do a test if the system is seeing the IDC.

Put the CLP jumper link (not used for your car) to FDC. This link hijacks the gauge to display fuel flow. do a video as before if possible.

The DHB jumper will not make any difference to your tests.

I also like to see a picture of the trimmers.

Richard L
13-03-2015, 06:28 PM
A picture of the underside of the circuit board too.

maskari_gti
13-03-2015, 08:32 PM
Will do that tomorrow. What do you mean by trimmers?

Richard L
13-03-2015, 09:33 PM
There are a few adjuster (trimmers) on the left of the circuit board. I like to see the settings for your car.

maskari_gti
14-03-2015, 12:03 PM
Here are some pics. I hope that the circuit picture is clear enough.


http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/57FC3FBB-CB12-49BF-8B9D-8041F795607B_zpspkgdupi3.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/57FC3FBB-CB12-49BF-8B9D-8041F795607B_zpspkgdupi3.jpg.html)


http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/A977C90E-A071-43E5-A504-7A7DF2E9648D_zpsi5jiaafe.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/A977C90E-A071-43E5-A504-7A7DF2E9648D_zpsi5jiaafe.jpg.html)

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/67821DFA-2523-434B-BD3E-A4DF5872E09D_zpsuoqapqs7.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/67821DFA-2523-434B-BD3E-A4DF5872E09D_zpsuoqapqs7.jpg.html)

Richard L
14-03-2015, 01:46 PM
The pictures are ultra clear, very nice.
The circuit board is properly solder linked. The board was manufactured in March 2012.

Please give me some history of this system,

1. The system has been on your car for a number years? Has it been working well up to now?

2. Does the gauge show lower flow than normal after you have repaired the leak?

3. Any maintenance done on the in tank filter, nozzle pattern etc?

Please help me with those questions.

maskari_gti
14-03-2015, 05:55 PM
Hey Richard.

The system has been on my car since December 2012. It has been working but not 100%. I faced many leaks thought the 2 years I had the system. Few installation mistakes with resulted in that TBP leak. Sometimes when I get meth flow, failsafe activates for a second the deactivates, the activates again and so on. At first, I thought it's normal. But seems not anymore.
From how much leaks I had, the bottom of my tank enclosure isn't black anymore. And the trunk mat smells of meth as if it has been soaked for years with meth lol.

Flow is usually normal. Never seen low level of flow. And again, I added an epoxy to the outer section of the level sensor to block another LEAK. That's the only mod I did I gues.

Richard L
14-03-2015, 07:02 PM
I like to address a common issue on the VW. Interfere causes the gauge to flicker sometimes mistaken as real flow.

I like to make one modification on the green harness (user port). Slice open the vinyl sheath as close to the RJ12 connector as possible. Pick out the white wire and cut it in half.

This wire is not needed on your setup. It sometimes picks up interference from the red and green wire of the Di fuel injector. Let me know how you get on. A picture if possible.

What type of tank do you use? Do you use our tank adaptor that comes with the kit? It has a similar seal as the water level sensor. If it was over tighten it will develop a split in the long term. A replacement gasket (http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-580-replacement-rubber-gasket-for-tank-adaptor/) is needed.

Shipping by post is very reasonable.

maskari_gti
14-03-2015, 07:15 PM
A video taken after changing the jumper from CLP to FDC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCD6yoF3aAU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCD6yoF3aAU)

maskari_gti
14-03-2015, 08:05 PM
I like to address a common issue on the VW. Interfere causes the gauge to flicker sometimes mistaken as real flow.

I like to make one modification on the green harness (user port). Slice open the vinyl sheath as close to the RJ12 connector as possible. Pick out the white wire and cut it in half.

This wire is not needed on your setup. It sometimes picks up interference from the red and green wire of the Di fuel injector. Let me know how you get on. A picture if possible.

What type of tank do you use? Do you use our tank adaptor that comes with the kit? It has a similar seal as the water level sensor. If it was over tighten it will develop a split in the long term. A replacement gasket (http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-580-replacement-rubber-gasket-for-tank-adaptor/) is needed.

Shipping by post is very reasonable.

I did the white wire adjustment. All what happened was no flow at all. I was surprised to be honest coz I know that it's not used in Tsi setup. So I had to solder the wire back again. Strange..

And all of my setup is from Aquamist as here's no compromise in quality. But I unfortunately, the installers were bad in my openion. I'm trying to get fed up with all this.

Richard L
14-03-2015, 08:34 PM
Keep the white wire cut.

Can you do a manual "SYS" test with the jet out and engine running. Just a second or two to see if the gauge shows flow.

We are going back to basics

We have no control over the install, Your controller looks brand new. You do look after it well.

maskari_gti
15-03-2015, 04:15 AM
Keep the white wire cut.

Can you do a manual "SYS" test with the jet out and engine running. Just a second or two to see if the gauge shows flow.

We are going back to basics

We have no control over the install, Your controller looks brand new. You do look after it well.

I can do anything if it will make it work. Let me know how they test is done step by step please.

Shall I put the jumper back to CLP?

Richard L
15-03-2015, 09:56 AM
Were you having problem making the manual test work? I couldn't quite understand you last post.

Assuming you meant you "can't" make it work... a few questions:
1. Did the pump come on when you when you link the "SYS"
2. Did all the led lights up when "SYS" is linked

Richard L
15-03-2015, 10:27 AM
A video taken after changing the jumper from CLP to FDC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCD6yoF3aAU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCD6yoF3aAU)

The IDC reading is good from the video. We can now focus on the delivery.

One thing you might like to check... there is a thin blue and red wire going into the pump relay assembly, make sure it is not detached.

maskari_gti
15-03-2015, 01:10 PM
Sorry I didn't make that clear. What I meant was, could you explains what's the manual SYS test is. I'm not familiar with that.

Richard L
15-03-2015, 01:30 PM
OK, "SYS" is a link on the controller that actives the system manually. Turning the pump and FAV on. Make sure the engine is running and only do it for a second of two.

Download this HFS4-v2 manual (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS4/manual/HFS4-v2.1w.pdf) so that you know the system better.

maskari_gti
15-03-2015, 02:51 PM
OK, "SYS" is a link on the controller that actives the system manually. Turning the pump and FAV on. Make sure the engine is running and only do it for a second of two.

Download this HFS4-v2 manual (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS4/manual/HFS4-v2.1w.pdf) so that you know the system better.

I did the SYS test and the pump worked for the 1-2 seconds I placed the jumper there. I put the DHB back and went for a drive. Again, same thing is happening. Failsafe activates and pump stops in no time.

I've also checked the two thin wires you mentioned. They are in place and no sign of them being lose.

Richard L
15-03-2015, 11:39 PM
This is very strange.

Unplug the FAV harness so not water is injected. SYS again, tell me if the pump can now run for several seconds without cutting off.

Richard L
18-03-2015, 09:25 AM
any updates?

maskari_gti
19-03-2015, 04:55 PM
any updates?

Hey Richard,

I was away for the last few days. Just came back home from work.

I tried it and the pump kept on working for as long as I keep the the jumper on SYS. I now have bigger hope that you will figure out the issue so soon.

Richard L
20-03-2015, 09:34 AM
OK, the controller and pump circuity is working as it should. is it possible to watch led on the controller as you drive? I like to know of the amber led stays lit after triggering.

maskari_gti
20-03-2015, 12:03 PM
OK, the controller and pump circuity is working as it should. is it possible to watch led on the controller as you drive? I like to know of the amber led stays lit after triggering.

I'll do that and try to locate the controller in a place where I can clearly see the Amber LED. What would that indicate? I mean if the Amber LED worked or not?

maskari_gti
20-03-2015, 12:39 PM
I tried this right now. Sometimes it stays but just for a short while where sometimes it just goes off immediately after failsafe is triggered.

maskari_gti
20-03-2015, 01:46 PM
I've also did some data logging right now with DFS, the timing pull is terrible. It indicates that there's no WM flow at all even thought the gauge shows flow.

Richard L
20-03-2015, 06:26 PM
Have you reinstated the FDC jumper back to PRK? The gauge cannot show flow if there is no flow.

Let me know.

maskari_gti
20-03-2015, 06:52 PM
Have you reinstated the FDC jumper back to PRK? The gauge cannot show flow if there is no flow.

Let me know.

Yes, it's back in PRK.

Richard L
20-03-2015, 07:43 PM
is it still showing flow?

maskari_gti
20-03-2015, 08:35 PM
is it still showing flow?

Yea. But then as I said, the data from the logs indicates no flow at all. And the pump still stops after the FS triggers.

Richard L
20-03-2015, 11:02 PM
Thanks for clarifying this "the pump stop after the failsafe is triggered.

OK, can you disable the failsafe by linking "DFS" with the "PRK" jumper. Let me know if the pump stop this time.

maskari_gti
21-03-2015, 02:47 AM
Thanks for clarifying this "the pump stop after the failsafe is triggered.

OK, can you disable the failsafe by linking "DFS" with the "PRK" jumper. Let me know if the pump stop this time.

IF you mean having jumpers on DFS+PRK then ice already done that. The pumps stops as well.

Richard L
21-03-2015, 10:49 AM
This is very puzzling for me.

OK, let's do the next test, it will be a visual one.

Place the opened controller in line of view, tell me if the amber led continues to illuminate after triggering. I like to know if triggered is interrupted and stops the pump.

maskari_gti
21-03-2015, 02:44 PM
I did some runs just now and results are as follows:
- Pump starts then stops but flow is still carying on. I double checked that there's no flow with my data logging as I keep getting very big negative numbers of timing pull.
- Pump primes then go quiet. After the FS is triggered, the Amber LED goes off immediately or right after triggering by approx a sec.

Richard L
21-03-2015, 03:52 PM
Where is pump located?

Once the failsafe triggered, the idc will reduce as the signal drop below the trigger point.

When you said the pump stopped, was it physically stop or stop flowing fluid?

maskari_gti
21-03-2015, 08:39 PM
Where is pump located?

Once the failsafe triggered, the idc will reduce as the signal drop below the trigger point.

When you said the pump stopped, was it physically stop or stop flowing fluid?

The pump is located in the trunk. It's mounted vertically.

The pump starts (pumping sound starts) and then it goes quiet. I remember clearly in one of my repairs last year, I kept the rear seat unfolded to hear if the pump was working. And I'm 100% sure that once it starts it doesnt go quiet until I take my foot off the pedal.

Richard L
21-03-2015, 11:32 PM
When you did the "SYS" test, did it go quiet?

This is most puzzling. The pump is switched on by a relay, either all on or all off. Can you change the relay and see if it cure the problem. It is just a single 4-pin automotive type relay.

maskari_gti
22-03-2015, 04:04 AM
When you did the "SYS" test, did it go quiet?

This is most puzzling. The pump is switched on by a relay, either all on or all off. Can you change the relay and see if it cure the problem. It is just a single 4-pin automotive type relay.

When i did the SYS with FAV harness disconnected, it carried on making pump noise. I couldn't keep the SYS longer than two seconds as you adviced when the FAV harness was connected.

I'll look for a relay to change and see if there's any change.

Richard L
22-03-2015, 10:47 AM
If you unplug the red harness, disabling the FAV you can run the pump as long as you like.

I like you a this test if possible, unplug the 4mm hose from the jet and let it spray freeing outside the engine. With the red harness reinstated, run the SYS for 30 seconds, tell me if the fluid flows out freely.

Richard L
23-03-2015, 09:59 AM
One more possibility...

If the water filter is clogged, you will get this problem as the fluid started to flow. See if you can purge the system by disconnecting the 6mm from the FAV and observe the flow of the water during "SYS" activation.

maskari_gti
23-03-2015, 02:27 PM
Hello Richard,

IVe found this and it's ridiculously expensive. The relay is $40!!

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/CDFFF926-5C8E-4C11-8CED-C06306F7B0AA_zpscez7n2xv.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/CDFFF926-5C8E-4C11-8CED-C06306F7B0AA_zpscez7n2xv.jpg.html)

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/A081BA4B-69B6-4727-B796-C367ED35B885_zpsmojx7uij.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/A081BA4B-69B6-4727-B796-C367ED35B885_zpsmojx7uij.jpg.html)

I'm catching a flight in few hours so I won't be able to do the cloge test. I'll do it as soon as I'm back though.

Richard L
24-03-2015, 12:24 AM
That is this relay made of? They should be no more than 5 dollars!

maskari_gti
24-03-2015, 08:31 AM
That is this relay made of? They should be no more than 5 dollars!

I was shocked too. It doesn't have a slot for a fuse too.

I'll look around to buy a normal one once I'm back from my trip and do the cloge test.

dave80
30-03-2015, 03:46 AM
I like to address a common issue on the VW. Interfere causes the gauge to flicker sometimes mistaken as real flow.

I like to make one modification on the green harness (user port). Slice open the vinyl sheath as close to the RJ12 connector as possible. Pick out the white wire and cut it in half.

This wire is not needed on your setup. It sometimes picks up interference from the red and green wire of the Di fuel injector. Let me know how you get on. A picture if possible

Richard is splicing the white wire in half a must for all VW guys? I used to have problems with the false flow readings, but mostly were caused by vibratons I think. Just wondering if there is anything negative from cutting the white wire in the half.

My old false flow thread:http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2440

Richard L
30-03-2015, 01:46 PM
Cutting the white wire will minimise the interference, one of the cause of interference.

The white wire transmits raw pulses from the flow sensor to the controller and external device. If you are not using a third party ECU, you don't need it. No negative effect

maskari_gti
06-04-2015, 04:10 PM
So, I can now say that my problem is solved. Big thanks to Richard for assisting me here first of all. You did a great job walking me through various steps of diagnosing the issue. With that, I've learned more about my Aquamist setup. Special thanks to Tensai Tuning in Abu Dhabi for scheduling me in even though they were fully booked.

Things done during the fix in order:

- Visual check for any leaks in general.
Two leaks on the tank. (Fixed)
Jet leaking in the TBP. (Replaced with a new 0.8mm Jet)

- Replaced the in tank filter.
- Did a spraying test and found out that the pump is actually pumping.
- Checked spraying after the FAV and turned out to be clogged. So with the aid of air pressure, we managed to free it out. It then sprayed meth from there.
- Checked the soldered wires going to the ECU. All were looking good and in place.

After this, we took the car for a test drive and all worked well. But on my way from the workshop, the same issue came back! So I drove back the following day and had it checked with the following:

- Got a new FAV to check if the problem was there. Issue still exist.
- Finally, started checking the pump and found out the pressure wasn't 160PSI. So, the pressure was then adjusted accordingly.
- Cut the white wire from the USER harness to eliminate false flow. It works 100% now.

Took the car for the final test drive and all is working on well now. Even better than before. No more hiccups. And I mean by that, FS activates from time to time for no obvious reasons.

I'm really happy that the issue is now gone. I can now drive my car happily :D

Richard L
08-04-2015, 07:49 AM
Thank for update, happen ending. There was quite a bit of effort on your side. well done. I think a full service every three years should prevent this from happening again.

Juts need to fine tune the WL and WH. Make sure the bars on the gauge does not exceed 6 bars... this stops the WH from triggering.

maskari_gti
08-04-2015, 08:46 AM
Thank for update, happen ending. There was quite a bit of effort on your side. well done. I think a full service every three years should prevent this from happening again.

Juts need to fine tune the WL and WH. Make sure the bars on the gauge does not exceed 6 bars... this stops the WH from triggering.

I really appreciate your swift responses and time spent to get this sorted Richard. I shall do regular servicing every now and then to prevent anything similar from happening.

Just one more question, it's strange what happened to the pump, is this a sign of it dying? I never adjusted it before but how come the pressure was low.

Richard L
09-04-2015, 10:33 PM
The pump should last for many years. The drop in pressure could be due to the spring ageing other the years. 1/4 to 1/2T clockwise should address that.

Richard

maskari_gti
30-04-2015, 07:56 AM
So, the system runs just fine. I logged the car and I can see drop in temperature. I still have timing retardation but that's just -1 to -2 which is acceptable.

Only thing Ive noticed is, the failsafe triggers on the first spraying. But then it runs normally.

Richard L
01-05-2015, 07:29 AM
May be a click or two on the WL (counterclockwise) or advance the FSDL a tad.

maskari_gti
26-05-2015, 06:06 PM
May be a click or two on the WL (counterclockwise) or advance the FSDL a tad.

I'll do that plus I need to adjust the trigger point. I want to make the spraying occur at a lower PSI. How's that possible?

Richard L
26-05-2015, 09:03 PM
You need to lower the WL if you are lowering the threshold.

maskari_gti
01-06-2015, 03:30 AM
You need to lower the WL if you are lowering the threshold.

I was looking at the manual and comparing it with my board. Is the soldering done wrong here?

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/99D0F8B0-70FD-4E54-8205-8181BA8414C7_zpsqzzfsxtz.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/99D0F8B0-70FD-4E54-8205-8181BA8414C7_zpsqzzfsxtz.jpg.html)



http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp23/maskari_gti/CDD66437-4E2B-4D88-AC6A-89B52C0B6F92_zpsiuzh72jh.jpg (http://s394.photobucket.com/user/maskari_gti/media/CDD66437-4E2B-4D88-AC6A-89B52C0B6F92_zpsiuzh72jh.jpg.html)

maskari_gti
15-06-2015, 10:32 AM
Bump! Any help please? I don't have the amber LED on my gauge no more..

Richard L
16-06-2015, 08:52 AM
I am not sure what the problem is, please explain again in more details.

maskari_gti
16-06-2015, 04:04 PM
I think that I need to recalibrate my failsafe. Could you please walk me through to accomplish that Richard? I keep getting restricted boost, low MAF readings and not good Intake Air Temps due to having limited power. That's my assumption.

I adjusted the Thres and I believe that failsafe isn't operational no more.

Richard L
16-06-2015, 07:46 PM
which way did you adjust the THRES? If you lower the THRES you need to lower the WL.

maskari_gti
18-06-2015, 08:18 PM
which way did you adjust the THRES? If you lower the THRES you need to lower the WL.

I lowerd Thres but I still feel that failsafe isn't 100% as it was.

How can I set a min and max boost? Before, when I used to switch the controller off (FS activates), I used to be able to get 7-8PSI. Now, I got no boost at all. The boost gauge shows 0PSI.

Richard L
18-06-2015, 08:33 PM
The system has no control over the boost pressure after failsafe activation. All it does is disconnect the BCV from the ECU.

Under this condition, the boost pressure will be your wastegate pressure.

maskari_gti
02-09-2015, 05:58 AM
Hello again,

My car seems to run almost perfectly now. Only thing I notice is lack of cooling affect I used to get in the past. It's a maximum of 10 Degrees Celsius IAT drop. I could't find the issue, frustrated.

Richard L
02-09-2015, 10:53 AM
can you check the spray pattern of the jet.

maskari_gti
06-09-2015, 05:21 PM
can you check the spray pattern of the jet.

Sorry I didn't quite understand what you mean.

Richard L
06-09-2015, 05:30 PM
If the jet is partially clogged, it will show up on a spray pattern test.

HYDE16
24-11-2015, 12:22 AM
Pull the jets out, jump the board to spray and check the output/pattern. You should be pulling your jets out to clean them once and a while. I pull mine out in Spring (after Winter) and then again towards the end of Summer to clean them out.

As for your failsafes, open the WL and WH all the way to disable the failsafes and see if the problem still happens. If it was your failsafe your car would open the wastegate to dump boost and the car would die off in terms of power.