Out of winterstorage: gauge is not showing spray bars

[dubversion]

Hi guys,

I installed my HFS4 in my BMW N54 application in october 2017. In december i had it successfully tuned in Germany (see my other post). As i was on wintertires, i haven't bothered turning on the aquamist system (just using the gauge switch) since the return from the tuner.

A few days ago i put on my summer tires and of course wanted to test my meth system again, getting ready for some drag racing. However, during a few pulls (about 6), the spray bars on the gauge are NOT lighting up.

I have the failsafe disabled/bypassed with the dipswitch and my tune does not need meth; so i'm still safe, but of course i don't understand why, without touching anything, within 90 days, the system is not working.

I would like some help with the quick checks, this is what i can come up with and what i have verified:

(1) When turning on the system, i'm not sure if the pump makes noise (is even on), i'm going to check that soon.

(2) During my runs, i heard noise from the pump that sounded like a spray / push sounds, it made me think pump is actually on and working or is there another valve making this noise ?

(3) I thought that the 6 pulls would prime the system, i can imagine that due to 90 days of no use some air would get into the system, buy my tank stayed half full, so we can rule out not priming it long enough, or am i wrong ?

(4) Of course i checked the lines, i saw no leakage, didn't smell anything and checked the actualy flow sensor at the FAV; it seemed to be just fine.

My main issue is that all is now in meth and it's quite toxic and flammable, so i want my next tests to be simple and without too much danger; so i'm thinking of taking off the line just after the FAV and do a tiny pull idling to see something comes out....


Any feedback is welcome, i'll keep you posted.


Jeroen

[Richard L]

take off the hose after the FAV to jet, activate the system with SYS, let me know if there is any fluid coming out of the FAV.

[dubversion]

Thanks Richard, that's the plan, i need a place to work, so i will take a couple of days...

[dubversion]

Okay, i was able to do some tests:

We disconnected the line downstream from the fav, to see if the pump+fav is working.

I pulled the FAV jumper and put it on SYS (in pre crank ignition). You can clearly hear the pump trying to push, but nothing came out.
We did notice that the line was trembeling and the line upstram of the fav was definitely under pressure.

I am driving with the FSD on, i don't use the failsafe setup, because i'm running a non meth tune on 23 PSI and i'm afraid to trigger the failsafe if the unit is off.

driving test:
The gauge itself lights up as expected, showing the blue "S" and the blue "B".
However, i've seen under load while driving that the orange "water level" LED also lights up (not the water injection led, that stays off). It's fully on, not blinking or anything.
The light goes off when my foot is off the throttle again.


To double check we checked the controller itself; when SYS is activated the "95%" led is on and the green ornage "THRES" is on as well. This is when the engine is not running (pre crank). I checked the connections specifically the one for the FAV, it's plugged in just fine. Again, i installed the unit in november and only used it during tuning in december 2017. Since then, i have not touched it (winter tires, snow, rain, etc).


So we think the issue lies with the FAV unit.
I will send you also an email Richard, i hope i'm still in warranty !

Any thoughts are welcome !

Regards,
Jeroen

[Richard L]

Apply a 12V signal to the FAV whilst on SYS mode. If it doesn't open, it will be faulty.

Warranty claim require you sending the FAV back to me. If we have found the seal is swollen due to hydrocarbon contamination, it will not be under warranty. For a simple reason, a replacement valve can suffer the same again and again. It is important we find the reason for the breakdown.

However we will repair it for you. We never charge for repairs.

[dubversion]

Hi Richard, perhaps a silly question, i could just cut the wire and apply the 12V, or can i send the signal via the plug that goes into the controller ?

[dubversion]

I'm not really looking forward to rerouting the FAV signal cable, it's a struggle to route it via the ECU compartment, firewall back into glove box... While cutting and soldering is seriously easier

[Richard L]

You can unplug the cable on the FAV end. No need to cut anything.

[dubversion]

Good i asked :)

[Richard L]

I think sending the FAV back to me is simpler. Assuming the chance of a faulty FAV cable is rare.
Do not cut any cable

[dubversion]

Hello all,

an update:

We diconnected the FAV upstream, to see if the main pump would flow on SYS. It did just fine, so everything seems to work up to the FAV.

We disconnected the FAV power supply and connected a (charged) car battery (12V) directory to the FAV power pins , while using the SYS jumper. No spray: so the FAV is broken. To be sure, we reversed the connected as well, making sure that we feed the current to the right pole.

We then hooked up the fav power supply again and see if under SYS we would notice a power potential difference over the two connectors while connected to the FAV . We did NOT notice a potential, which we found odd.

We then tried it with the wire diconnected from the FAV. Again, no potential measures, as if there is no power from the controller.

In the last test, we disconnected the FAV power supply and disconnected the FAV input to the controller, and put the battery on the FAV side on the wire. Then we tried to measure a potential on the FAV input connecter on the controller side touching the copper connectors on the RJ11. We noticed a potential equal to that supplied by the battery.

Our conclusions:

- FAV is broken
- FAV wiring is not broken
- Possible issue with the power supply from the controller to the FAV as we were unable to record a 12V potential over the wire when on SYS.


Richard, i will send the FAV unit to you. Can you perhaps explain why we could not measure 12V out of the controller ? Is this some safety measure ? Is the controller talking to the FAV and if it doesn't get the right signal it does not put 12V on it ?

I'll use this address: http://www.aquamist-direct.com/contact-us/

Kind regards,
Jeroen

[Richard L]

There are two conditions for the FAV to open:
1. the mechanical movement of the internal piston
2. The coil that actuate the piston.

You must test the FAV as follows:
3. Coil has have a resistance of 12 ohm
4. Test the FAV with a separate 12V supply. You should hear a click everytime the
5. Once this is established, you can plug the FAV back into the system.
6. Use the SYS umper
7. Only then if the FAV does not open, it could be the following:
a. Wire inside the Red harness plug may be severed or came loose
b. Only after all the above step, you can confidently establsihed the controller is not sending a full 12V to the FAV.

There is not need to any driving to establish this.

[Richard L]

procedure for testing the flow sensor:

1. Unscrew the sensor tube from the FAV, spanner on the hex flat nearest to FAV..
2. You should hear a whirling sound when you blow gently through the sensor tube.
3. Clip in yellow harness and observe the dash gauge, you might need a mirror of a second person to observe the gauge (done at pre-crank key position)

[dubversion]

Hi Richard,

Your sentence at point (4) is not complete.

We put the 12V power supply (car battery) directly to the FAV, connected the meth line (upstream only of course) and jumper on SYS. No spray noticed downstream the FAV, i decoupled the line to the jets so it's easy to see flow (into a bottle). It was noisy, so i'm not sure if the FAV itself was making any noise.

So i just did another test here behind my desk wit the FAV in front of me. I connect 12V (600 mA) to it, and the only click i can here is at the moment of connection / disconnection , it seems to be the noise of the visible small spark. The unit itself does not make any (clicking) noise.

Let me know the next step please, send FAV to you ?


Kind regards,
Jeroen

[dubversion]

Why should i test the flow sensor ? There is no flow to be sensed :)

[Richard L]

Flow sensor is the next FAV test after the FAV is tested OK.

The FAV should draw 1A with 12V, so send the FAV and Flow sensor assembly back to me for closer examination.

[dubversion]

Hi Richard,

okay. Can i use this address ?

http://www.aquamist-direct.com/contact-us/

[Richard L]

yes.. This is the correct address.

[dubversion]

Hi Richard,

DHL insist on a house number, what can i write ?

[Richard L]

59 Bolney Avenue

[dubversion]

Hi Richard have you received the FAV yet ?

[Richard L]

NO. Please update, it got lost by your shipper.

[dubversion]

Yes, we emailed already. Awaiting your replacement parts shipment now...

Kind regards,
Jeroen

[Richard L]

pity your shipment never arrived, so we never know what the problem is.

DHL = Delayed, Held up, Lost.

[dubversion]

haha, yeah, i'm quite unlucky with DHL... i'll revert to one of the competitors in future...

[Richard L]

I have finally received the faulty FAV assembly. The issue was due to contaminated methanol. Was told via email the methanol was purchased from a model airplane shop. I believe it contains 30% castrol oil.

Wonder why people do not read the warning, clearly stated on the flip side of box.


http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/compare2.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/compare.jpg

[dubversion]

Hi Richard,

thank you for the quick diagnostics.

Unfortunately, i was mislead by the company.
I asked if it had oil contamination, they claimed it had not.
Also the label shows no sign of contamination:

http://customturboworld.com/phpBB3/images_old\coolisbetterwatermethlabel.jp g

There are no other labels ANYWHERE on the box (checked all sides) or whatever.

In the end, you have to trust the seller. I guess not.
Anyways,
As said, i now get a different source for the meth and it will be 100%. I will mix with distilled water, to rule out any contamination.

I will flush the system and tank before reinstalling replacement parts.

Thanks again,

Kind regards,
Jeroen

[dubversion]

UPDATE:

here is the dutch page where they claim it is not contaminated:

http://www.coolisbetter.nl/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=77&osCsid=4f6e935b6c113bbe2006ef58a70924ea


It reads: "Deze mix van 50% Gedestilleerd water en Methanol [..]" I think you can don't need the translation...

So i tried my best to get the correct fuel mixture...

[Richard L]

Your can get 99.9% pure methanol from a bio diesel supplier. We pay around £16-20 for 25 litres here in UK, undiluted.

[dubversion]

Your can get 99.9% pure methanol from a bio diesel supplier. We pay around £16-20 for 25 litres here in UK, undiluted.

Yes, that's what i'm getting now. 100% pure (probably 99.9).

Kind regards,
Jeroen

[dubversion]

It's working again, but there was still another issue !

We first emptied the tank (holding it upside down).
Then we flushed/purged the system with distilled water (about 3,5 liters)
Then we emptied the tank again
Proceeded by billing up the tank with completely new meth (mixed with distilled water 50%).
I then connected the new FAV and use FAV dipswitch to SYS again.

Nothing, no flow.

We then disconnected the FAV 12V cable and used a 12V car battery. The system worked ! So we proved that the new FAV works and we have a wiring issue.

Then tried to read the signals of the two wires (it's actually 4, but 2 are paired) and noticed that the ground signal is not 0V, but 1-3 volts. The other cable (pair) showed the expected 12V. I guess there's a cable cut. We then took the little black block apart that connects to the FAV, feeding it power. We wired an additional ground wire from the solderied connection to the car as a ground.


We retested. It works !!!

So I kindly ask you to send me to send me the red FAV power wire somewhere it is broken.

The current setup works as a charm, so i could do several tests. It seems the new FAV also opens earlier and yields slightly more meth (6 bars instead of 5).It's a bit more responsive (it sprays earlier), i guess it has to do with the fact that the rubber inside this one is NOT swollen ! 6 bars sounds okay to me, we dyno it on saturday, i'm very anxious to see the power numbers again.

It's a patch and i don't want to keep this forever, so i do want to replace the original wiring.


Richard, i'll also send an e-mail.

Final update will be the actual power numbers.

greetings,
Jeroen

[Richard L]

Can you tell what caused the cable to break?

[dubversion]

Hi Richard,

not yet, we haven't extracted it yet. Removing it means removing the ECU (to reach the firewall opening) and i rather have the new one ready.

the cable was working just fine from the install in october 2017 - 19 dec 2017 (day of dyno).

After that, i hadn't turned the system on anymore, until March 2018, when potentially it was already broken. But we only verified that something was wrong in March, when i started this post.

If we find that the cable has visible damage, i will certainly update you again. But of course i remember installing it and we were very careful to route the cable away from hot sources (it does do over the engine, but we used the cable gutter already present) and made sure nothing was pressing on it.

We'll know more when i replace it.

[Richard L]

Are you making a warranty claim for this cable?

[dubversion]

Hi Richard, i don't know yet. Let's first check the fault. If the cable shows sign of wear/tear, obivously it's my fault. I inspected the cable before installing it, your kit was in perfect shape when it arrived here back in august 2017.

I can take a picture if you want once i have the cable out.

I assume the cable is not expensive ?

If you rather have me pay for it, no problem. Just let me know what you prefer.

Either way, i don't like the current situation. It will be okay for the dyno session, but i want to replace the cable asap.

Kind regards,
Jeroen

[Richard L]

We have already given you a brand new FAV and flow sensor free of charge and free shipping. The issue was not caused by us.

Now there is an issue of the red cable, I assume you want us to do the same? Cost is not the point, it is your expectation of us as an individual.

[dubversion]

Richard, let's not fight over this one. I just want to fix the broken part. I'm okay to pay for it. Please send me the details and I happily pay for it.

My expectation is that a brand new product, with literally less than 20 runs doesn't fail after 3 months of build in, where no further work was done near the product that could have damaged it. That is not strange, i do hope you agree.

Please send me the details and i'll transfer the amount.

Kind regards,
Jeroen

[Richard L]

you can order it from:
http://www.aquamist-direct.com/806-569-replacement-hfs2-3-4-red-harness/

It will cost you £13.00 + shipping.

Our cable does not fall apart in 3 mouths. Nor does our FAV and flow sensor fails after 3 months of storage.

[dubversion]

Done, i've ordered it

We've discussed the failure of the FAV at length; i fully trust your diagnosis and hydrocarbon contamination is the issue. I took all measures to prevent that from happening, as i have proven to you. I'm not blaming Aquamist for the fail and offered to pay for it, you gracefully shipped it under warranty. That's superb customer service.

The failure of the cable was diagnosed yesterday, but already likely in March. When the cable is out i'll inspect it to verify there is wear or tear.

Sometimes bad luck happens, Richard, it's not who's to blame, it's how we deal with it.

I'm very happy with the service, not so happy with the vulnerability of the rubber seal. As an engineer, i would look into an alternative for the rubber that's perhaps less prone to swelling, i'm not sure if such a thing is on the market. Maybe a coating can do the trick ?

Anyways, i replaced the meth and distilled water source, so now let's hope i can finally enjoy the extra power !

Kind regards,
Jeroen

[Richard L]

If you can show me a seal that is suitable for hydrocarbon and alcohol. I will be most grateful. Do you not think we have done this research long before your suggestion?

So help me .... rather stating the obvious. Mr engineer.

On every kit, there is this warning label:
(ignoring it at your own peril)

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/warnings.jpg

[dubversion]

What kind of materials are used in flex fuel pumps ? Obviously they can pump E85, which is alcohol with carbonhydro compounds. Surely they have some form of seal in it and that rubber doesn't have the issue you're facing ?


The same is true for (port) injectors, handling E85.

FWIW: I'm not trying to be a smart ass, i'm genuinely trying to solve a problem and do not appreciate the derogatory comment. I luckily was able to help the BMW 335i community as well researching usage of E85 in the N54 engine back in 2011. By luck i was able to talk to the original lead engineer at VDO/Siemens who developed the fuel system for the engine. We discussed the HPFP and injectors in particular, as he was afraid there is a compound in the injector that may not like a high concentration of alcohol for a longer period (kind of the opposite of your problem i reckon). Technnology is forever changing, certainly in these new compounds and changing markets, due to the introduction of bio diesel / E85. If your research is prior 2006, i can imagine that some of these compounds were not yet available.


Kind regards,
Jeroen

[Richard L]

The function of the rubber seal/seat is completely different on E85 valve/pump from the FAV.

I am unable to discuss futher how we arrived at the design at present without feeding the copy cats out there. I assure you we have arrived at the best combination of shore hardness, temperature range, water absorption rate and durability for the metal seat geometry of the FAV.

You should really follow our advice on label and the system will work fine for years.

[dubversion]

Hi Richard,

I understand.

My first batch of water meth mixture should have been pure meth with distilled water; they apparently contaminated it.
I've changed it.

Of course i follow your advice.

Going to the dyno now, i'll post my latest dyno results as soon as i have them.