Nitromethane from RC Car Fuel?

[zooyork155]

Is there any disadvantage to using RC Car Nitro fuels? Would the % of oil/lubricant in the fuels have any poor effects on a gasoline engine?

[Richard L]

I am not sure of nitromethane fuel, it sounds very explosive to me. the top top top fuel dragster uses them. I think the fuel can run the engine alone without and air.

[Richard L]

Is there any disadvantage to using RC Car Nitro fuels? Would the % of oil/lubricant in the fuels have any poor effects on a gasoline engine?

Are you mixing the nitromethane with water or fuel?

[Turbo Jacky]

Is there any disadvantage to using RC Car Nitro fuels? Would the % of oil/lubricant in the fuels have any poor effects on a gasoline engine?

Are you mixing the nitromethane with water or fuel?


I have tested with 70% water and 30% nitromethane, the results where great :lol: , next weeks we gonna test with more nitromethane, grtzzzzzz

[Richard L]

I saw the a faxed dyno result from John, nearly 70 horses increase from 210, was it your car?

Unfortunately the picture as not clear since the fax print out didn't show the "no water" plot since it was in blue.

[Turbo Jacky]

I saw the a faxed dyno result from John, nearly 70 horses increase from 210, was it your car?

Unfortunately the picture as not clear since the fax print out didn't show the "no water" plot since it was in blue.


No it wasnt my car, that was a Cosworth, it has 70 Hp and 150 Nm more with using my mix. The nex weeks we gonna test with 50/50.

I have a Seat Ibiza 1.8T, i am using a dual pump and dual nozzle and an cooler in the front ,
the power with using the nitromethane mix is 280Whp en 420 NM.

On the dyno my car takes in 4th gear 5.2 secs to the max, with using water with Nitromethane it takes 3.2 secs. I use 2 nozzles 0.5.

Maybe i see you at Birmingham, greetzzz Jack

[Richard L]

I was talking to John about the pump seals standing up to the nitromethane, if you are making these crazy power, it is worth making the pump suitable for nitro-up to 50%.

The fax was in dutch and I can't read dutch.

What was your power before Nitromethane/water injection? Are you sure you want to go for 50/50? very explosive!!!

[Turbo Jacky]

I was talking to John about the pump seals standing up to the nitromethane, if you are making these crazy power, it is worth making the pump suitable for nitro-up to 50%.

The fax was in dutch and I can't read dutch.

What was your power before Nitromethane/water injection? Are you sure you want to go for 50/50? very explosive!!!


Yes Richard we go testing the next weeks for 50/50, maybe 40/60, we take the Cosworth engine, if it blows than we thake another one.

My Seat had 230 Hp without WIS, first test on the Cosworth and than mine :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ,grtzz

[Richard L]

It must be late in Holland.

We will be there between 13th -16th, Hall 10, stand number 10324. There will be new products for the 2005.

30% Nitro give you a gain from 230 -280HP? :shock: Nice :razz:

[Turbo Jacky]

It must be late in Holland.

We will be there between 13th -16th, Hall 10, stand number 10324. There will be new products for the 2005.

30% Nitro give you a gain from 230 -280HP? :shock: Nice :razz:


Yes it does, and a 2 sec. faster power acceleration :lol: :lol: :wink: ,grtz

[Richard L]

Do you have a dyno plot availabe to post here?

[Turbo Jacky]

Do you have a dyno plot availabe to post here?

John has the dyno plots, i ask him tommorow to fax you one, private questions can you ask by pm, grtz

[Richard L]

He faxed me one but the blue line doesn't come out so I can not see all the power lines.

I did ask John to email me all the plots but so far I have received nothing.

[janis]

WAT vertel je me daar!! (sorry, had to type some Dutch).

I mean, beg your pardon!!

50HP more from that mixture?! :shock:

Is that the stuff with oil in it as well, for the 2-stroke engines?
How does that mix with the water at all?
Won't the oil clog the injectors?

I want it I want it I want it!!

Janis (Volvo V40 T4)

[Richard L]

Not sure the power increase is 100% due to the nitroM, it appears that the stock power was 230 and with the introduction of higher boost, water and nitroM, the power has risen to 280.

I have not heard of anyone else using this mixing before. It appears that it is a great way to get big power.

Have looked into making a pump suitable for that mixture.

[janis]

Not sure the power increase is 100% due to the nitroM, it appears that the stock power was 230 and with the introduction of higher boost, water and nitroM, the power has risen to 280.

I have not heard of anyone else using this mixing before. It appears that it is a great way to get big power.

Have looked into making a pump suitable for that mixture.

Dunno,

The only Ibiza Cupra 1.8T I know of has 180HP.

Turbo Jacky, please enlighten us. Is the 50HP increase due to WI & nitroM
only, or did you further increase boost.

Anyway. I won't use the stuff untill I'm sure it won't ruin the pump.

Greetz,

Janis

[Richard L]

We have just made a prototype p[ump with Teflon seal and it works really well.

Jacky, let me know when you r pump gives you problem and I will send a replacement pump to you. I need to knwo how long would a normal pump last first.

[Turbo Jacky]

At this moment we have no problems with the system, no problems with the nozzles and pump, even the second pump we use stays fine.

We can't see if we get problems on a longer time, next week i test on the dyno days by Biesheuvel the Cosworth engine an stronger mix, too see if we get more power. Water and Nitro colors like milk.

I come to Birmingham and give you the results, maybay we must change the normal pump for a modified one, i think we can talk at Birmingham about some technical mods :wink: .

During the dyno ill make some photo's and let them mail to yo :lol: , grtzzz

[tragerr]

Did you richen up AFRs by a point for the 30% Nitro test? Are you going to richen up AFRs by 1.5 points when you try a 50% nitro 50% water mix?
Does your wideband properly measure AFRs when using nitro/methanol/petrol mixes?

THX

[Richard L]

At this moment we have no problems with the system, no problems with the nozzles and pump, even the second pump we use stays fine.

We can't see if we get problems on a longer time, next week i test on the dyno days by Biesheuvel the Cosworth engine an stronger mix, too see if we get more power. Water and Nitro colors like milk.

I come to Birmingham and give you the results, maybay we must change the normal pump for a modified one, i think we can talk at Birmingham about some technical mods :wink: .

During the dyno ill make some photo's and let them mail to yo :lol: , grtzzz

So far so good :D .


I will bring the teflon sealed pump to Birmingham so that you can put it on one side until the other pump develops problem. I am look forward to see the results in Birmingham.

I wonder the RC nitro contains some oil and caused the milky mix?

[Turbo Jacky]

At this moment we have no problems with the system, no problems with the nozzles and pump, even the second pump we use stays fine.

We can't see if we get problems on a longer time, next week i test on the dyno days by Biesheuvel the Cosworth engine an stronger mix, too see if we get more power. Water and Nitro colors like milk.

I come to Birmingham and give you the results, maybay we must change the normal pump for a modified one, i think we can talk at Birmingham about some technical mods :wink: .

During the dyno ill make some photo's and let them mail to yo :lol: , grtzzz

So far so good :D .


I will bring the teflon sealed pump to Birmingham so that you can put it on one side until the other pump develops problem. I am look forward to see the results in Birmingham.

I wonder the RC nitro contains some oil and caused the milky mix?




Today we tested 66%nitro with 34% water the results where :shock: :lol: great,grtz

[Richard L]

Can't wait for the results - :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:

[Turbo Jacky]

I have more results from other tested cars, today i mounted a system on a VW Golf VR6, non turbo, the results??? :D :D :D ,grtz

[Richard L]

Another one -??? You must bring the result to the show for sure.

[janis]

Another one -??? You must bring the result to the show for sure.

No, you must tell us all so we can learn! :wink:

[Richard L]

I have not got any results yets from turbojacky.

[hotrod]

Just to avoid problems in the future, it would be very much appreciated if you guys would be very careful to specify exactly what mix your running.

I doubt very much you are actually using "66% nitro", more likely your running 66% RC fuel and 34%water, with an RC fuel that consists of methanol with about 15% nitro in it.

That would yield a mix of 34% water, 56.1% methanol, and 9.9% nitro (ignoring the castor oil that is probably in the RC fuel mix)

A little clarification about what Nitro/methanol mixes are available in your area and some effort to standardize the way we talk about the mixture percentages could save some one a very bad experience in the future.

Toward that end how about a standard notation of ;

W/M/N such that above would be 34/56.1/9.9 --- or to use round numbers, 34/56/10.

For those of us that like to experiment with mixed alcohol blends of methanol and ethanol, the same sort of system could be used.

For example a mix of 30% water, 50% methanol and 20% ethanol would be :

W/M/E = 30/50/20

To make the numbering convention universal, the rule could be ;

Water % is always the first number
Alcohols always follow the water stated in order of their molecular weight.
Ie Methanol first , ethanol second, Isopropyl third
Nitro is always last if used --- perhaps require the true nitro percentage to always be enclosed in ( )

That would make the first notation for a 66% RC fuel mix appear as:

34/56/(10)

;)

I will start another thread on mixture notation so we don't clutter this thread up.

Larry

[janis]

I have not got any results yets from turbojacky.

I wanted to reply to turbojacky's post but used the wrong "quote"

So Jack, please share :!:

[MikeD]

An older book said Nitro should not be mixed with water and
suggested Campfer (spelling?) be used to stretch it if
detonation was feared from pure Nitro. Also suggested other
nasty non burning liquid to mix it with. But luckily it is now
proven that water can be used.
If you burn Nitromethane will that make water like gasoline does?

[hotrod]

An older book said Nitro should not be mixed with water and suggested
Campfer (spelling?) be used to stretch it if detonation was feared from
pure Nitro. Also suggested other nasty non burning liquid to mix it with.
If you burn Nitromethane will that make water like gasoline does?

They may have been refering to camphor ( a ketone C10 H16 O ) It is uses as a flavoring agent, in some medical preparations, and as a plasticizer in some explosives. A liquid form is also available -- called camphor oil

The products of combustion would include water, and nitrogen compounds.
Nitromethanes chemical formula is CH3 NO2, and I believe it burns to give carbon dioxide, water and nitric acid (or other nitrogen oxides) as its combustion products. The nitric acid giving it the extremely pungent odor characteristic of a nitro burning car.

My guess is the reaction would be:

1 ( CH3-NO2 ) + 2(O2) = HNO3 + CO2 + H2O

Larry

[Turbo Jacky]

Due to my poor english I mailed the results to Richard!
He can tell you more now!

grtzzzzz

[janis]

So where are the results :?:

I am curious :!:

[doctorfrag]

I've found a place locally that sells 100% methanol ,and also 100% nitromethane :lol: , they use them with oil to make up R/C control car fuel.

So I can make a mixture of Methanol water and nitromethane ;)

Is this safe to use as I currently have an aquamist 1s sytem? and if I limited the nitromethane to say 5-10% would that be reasonable?

thanks

Joe

[Richard L]

I've found a place locally that sells 100% methanol ,and also 100% nitromethane :lol: , they use them with oil to make up R/C control car fuel.

So I can make a mixture of Methanol water and nitromethane ;)

Is this safe to use as I currently have an aquamist 1s sytem? and if I limited the nitromethane to say 5-10% would that be reasonable?

thanks

Joe

I think the aquamist seal with easily put up with up to 10% of pure nitromethane plus 20% methanol. I can supply teflon seal for the pump if you want to run 100% nitro. :twisted:

Please do not put any oil in the mixture.

[Richard L]

So where are the results :?:

I am curious :!:


I forget to post a well written account of what Jack did during Christmas period:

Here it is:

as promised here are some of my experiences with aquamist. This mail is translated by my little buddy Arno because when I would write this in english, it would take a century and you wouldn''t understand a thing :-)

During our conversation in Birmingham I gave you a couple of Dyno-charts, amongst others I gave you dyno charts of a Volvo T4 and of a Cosworth. I have described our results below.

Volvo T4
Without waterinjection the Volvo T4 was detonating (don't know if this is the right word) at about 180 Hp.
WITH the use of waterinjection, that problem was completely gone. We just used normal water/wiperscreen-fluid.
The power of the engine without waterinjection was 210 Hp, with waterinjection it was increased up to approx 250 Hp, using spray-nozzle 0,5. Nozzel 0,6 and 0,7 seemed to make no difference when we tested them.
The cold weather probably already made the air-flow very cold so i think we almost reached the maximum effect on this car with the use of waterinjection.

Cosworth
At earlier tests at 20degrees outside-temperature we used 20-25% nitro and 80-75% water, you are already familiar with the results of these tests. These results are caused by the weather, the higher the outside temperature is, the better aquamist works.

Last 27 December we had a Dynoday at Biesheuvel, the meaning of this day was to try to beat the results of 2 months ago.
However, due to the low outside-temperature (5-6degrees) this was impossible.
That is why we decided to experiment with the percentage of nitro which we inject.
At 27 december we went up to a mixture of 66% nitro and 34% water to reach the same results as we had 2 months ago.

We also wanted to test the use of 100% pure nitro but the owner of the cosworth was affraid and decided not to.

When the temperature will be a bit higher this summer, we want to test what the effects of different percentages of nitro are at higher outside temperatures.
So you see, I'll keep testing :-)

So far for the Test results of Aqaumist on Engines with a Turbo.

Now for the VW-Golf VR6.
I have installed the Aquamist system on a Golf VR6, which is completely tuned by Schrick. We used the black contact switches which we fitted on to the Inlet valve.
We started with a Spray nozzle of 0,5 but after an hour we switched to 0,6 because the 0,5 was to small.
The used mixture was 50% nitro and 50% water.
We didn't hade the chance yet to take the car for a Dyno, but our feeling tells us that the car reaches his top-power a bit sooner then without nitro.
However I can't yet say what the exact effect is before i had the chance to take it to the Dyno.

Of all the Waterinjection kist we fitted on cars, every customer so far was surprised and they are all very satisfied so far!
The nitro we usually use is Methanol with 16% nitro added to it.

Now for something different, the 5th of March I will go to a new Tuningshop in the Netherlands to give a demonstration of the use of Aquamist. I will be assisted by a Dyno so I can show the people exactly what the effect of Aquamist is.
I would really like it if you could support me this day with some promo material and maybe some mechanical parts which i can use to show the people how it works and to explain all a bit.

Now my last little thing, did you already concidered our offer of the RAM-festival 15/16 may 2005? We would really like your presence on this show, and we are gradually evaluating which people will come so we can look how we are gonna devide the terrain we have at our proposal.

The Netherlands will know the power of waterinjection !!! :-D

Regards,
Jack Veraart

I will post the dyno graphs as given to me by Jack as soon as I borrow a scanner.

[Richard L]

I've found a place locally that sells 100% methanol ,and also 100% nitromethane :lol:
Joe

More details please, I like to try it on my car - it is not very responsive to paddle pressure - if fact it is very poor. Correction, it does respond for at least 2000ms later. :sad:

[JScoob]

Does anyone know if unburned nitromethane or its burned constituents will foul up cats?

[JScoob]

I think the aquamist seal with easily put up with up to 10% of pure nitromethane plus 20% methanol. I can supply teflon seal for the pump if you want to run 100% nitro. :twisted:

Please do not put any oil in the mixture.

So would the lubricants in the RC nitro fuel be bad for the aquamist pump? I'm considering using a 30% nitro RC fuel...

[EvoTio]

This subject is very interesting. I am also curious if using nitromethane would be compatible with catalytic converters.

[Richard L]

I believe part of emission from the engine contains NO or NO2(smaller extent), running Nitro will yield higher percentage of NO2, but I am no expert on it.

Anyone?

[doctorfrag]

Hi richard, thankyou for your support.

The place locally is a R/C car/plane shop in Hitchin, Herts, the owner told me that most places have stopped dealing with it because of the insurance implications for storing nitromethane and methanol at the shop. He is only allowed a small quantity.
Health and safety risks also means that delivery can be expensive.

Methanol is easier, and he says it has been harder to get nitromethane, but he is still able to get it on special delivery.

I will be contacting him next week, and try and get more details, and I'll order some nitromethane :lol:


Interesting results here, of course liek alot of people I am concerned about safety of using this, but the feeling overall is that small amounts say up to 10% by volume methanol/water would be reasonable?

Joe

[JScoob]

You know what else is scary...the thought of nitro igniting in my intake manifold. I'm kinda starting to have second thoughts. That nitro may be highly unstable with 20+ psi of warm, boosted air contacting a hot engine head. Its one thing to combust in the cylinder. Quite another to combust outside it.

Maybe I'll return that 30% nitro RC fuel and switch to the 5% nitro mix they had...

[Richard L]

Hi richard, thankyou for your support.

The place locally is a R/C car/plane shop in Hitchin, Herts, the owner told me that most places have stopped dealing with it because of the insurance implications for storing nitromethane and methanol at the shop. He is only allowed a small quantity.
Health and safety risks also means that delivery can be expensive.

Methanol is easier, and he says it has been harder to get nitromethane, but he is still able to get it on special delivery.

I will be contacting him next week, and try and get more details, and I'll order some nitromethane :lol:

Interesting results here, of course liek alot of people I am concerned about safety of using this, but the feeling overall is that small amounts say up to 10% by volume methanol/water would be reasonable?

Joe

Thanks for the update. I will get some and test our seals with it at up to 50% concentration - I think it is good enough - unlikely people with pump 100% nitro through the Aquamist pump.

[Richard L]

An older book said Nitro should not be mixed with water and suggested
Campfer (spelling?) be used to stretch it if detonation was feared from
pure Nitro. Also suggested other nasty non burning liquid to mix it with.
If you burn Nitromethane will that make water like gasoline does?

They may have been refering to camphor ( a ketone C10 H16 O ) It is uses as a flavoring agent, in some medical preparations, and as a plasticizer in some explosives. A liquid form is also available -- called camphor oil

The products of combustion would include water, and nitrogen compounds.
Nitromethanes chemical formula is CH3 NO2, and I believe it burns to give carbon dioxide, water and nitric acid (or other nitrogen oxides) as its combustion products. The nitric acid giving it the extremely pungent odor characteristic of a nitro burning car.

My guess is the reaction would be:

1 ( CH3-NO2 ) + 2(O2) = HNO3 + CO2 + H2O

Larry

Isn't the nitromethane just a mixture of fuel and oxygen and burning is self supporting? Topfuel Drag car used neat nitromethane and it dumps about six times the amount than ordinary fuel - At this rate, there are little or no room in the combustion chamber to hold enough air (20% oxygen) to support the burn.

I have also spoken someone darg racing expert at the show, I think he said NM97%M3 with makethe engine run lean and NM93%M7 is what they use to fuel those 8000BHP engines.

I think for our little experiment here, mixing 20% neat nitromethane and 20% methanol 20/20/60 of NM/M/W should show some good power gains without causing too much drama.

[ubcnme]

Hello there is a product that has nitro in ist a product sold by www.snowperformance.net its called nitro booster it comes in a 16 ounce bottle I think its supposed to increase your horsepower by about 50 horsepower. I havnt tried the porduct but its supposed to be good. :roll:

[EvoTio]

Hello there is a product that has nitro in ist a product sold by www.snowperformance.net its called nitro booster it comes in a 16 ounce bottle I think its supposed to increase your horsepower by about 50 horsepower. I havnt tried the porduct but its supposed to be good. :roll:

ubcnme, this is a nice find. This NitroBooster seems like it may be the ticket. I may order some to try out on my water injection set-up soon.

[cuprabaz]

ubcnme, this is a nice find. This NitroBooster seems like it may be the ticket. I may order some to try out on my water injection set-up soon.

I run a snow performance WMI system on my Ibiza Cupra 1.8T and was looking to get this stuff shipped across, where abouts are you located as we could split the costs. Shipping is a nightmare.

[ubcnme]

I live in the Island of Hawaii where do you live

[cuprabaz]

I live in the Island of Hawaii where do you live

Scotland.

[JohnA]

I am quite interested in this nitromethane mix.

There is a small forum over at snowperformance.net and the folks there say that it will NOT mix with water, and that best bet is 50% methanol50%nitromethane (homemade from pure liquids)

That's with using an emulsifier, too.

So how come people here mix nitromethane with water so easily? :?

[Richard L]

I have just received 5 litre of pure Nitromethane form G-max.

Here is a couple of pictures of it.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/nitro1.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/nitro2.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/nitro3.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/nitro4.jpg

[janis]

Did you manage to try the stuff yet?

[Richard L]

First of all, I need to find a way to dissolve the stuff in water.

And then do some long term compatibility test with our pump seals. Teflon is the seal I will try first.

I don't have a turbo car, I will try it on my daily driver - Citroen Picasso.

[doctorfrag]

I am planning on making up a 50/40/10 methanol/water/Nitromethane mix, the nitromethane can dissolve in the methanol, reading here it seems that up to 10% by volume can be used with out having to worry about a/f ratios.

This will be some time early summer, as I don't have the money for a separate remap for this, but I will map with 50/50 Methanol/water first of all on the rollers, then put in the above mix and then run her again. I am concerned that it may affect detonation which is why I want to do it this way,.. to be safe!
If there are noticeable gains, then I will try stronger concentrations :)

Joe

[JohnA]

Judging from this label, nitromethane sure looks like the Devil's brew :lol:

I wonder if it reacts with plastics, aluminium, brass fittings, etc. Nasty piece of work it is... :shock:

[Richard L]

Had a bit of time today to play...

First I put a few drop on a metal plinth, hit lightly with a hammer, nothing much happen. Hitting harder and hard, just can't ignite it.

The next test: put a few drop under a 40-ton fly-press. Again failed to make it ignite when struck.

Mixed 33/33/33 M/W/N but the couldn't dissolve all the nitro, see picture below:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/nitro5.jpg

I then put two drops of washing up liquid, shoke it a bit, went milky within a few seconds-appeared to have emulsified. Left it overnight, Shall have the answer tomorrow.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/nitro6.jpg

[JohnA]

Washing up liquid eh?

Fairy any good?

If this keeps it suspended, I'd be tempted to try it myself.
But it will need a special tank I suppose, can't use the windscreen wiper bottle eh?

[chucktoo]

Thanks Richard for the lab class.

It would be interesting to see if the 50-40-10 mixture Water-Methanol-Nitro mix actualy works and does not seperate out.

[Richard L]

The solution has separated but appeared less nitromethane was left at the bottom - washing up liquid seemed to have made the nitromethane more soluable in water/methanol.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/7.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/8.jpg

[Richard L]

Thanks Richard for the lab class.

It would be interesting to see if the 50-40-10 mixture Water-Methanol-Nitro mix actualy works and does not seperate out.

I will try that mix next for you and will post a picture.

[Richard L]

Washing up liquid eh?

Fairy any good?

If this keeps it suspended, I'd be tempted to try it myself.
But it will need a special tank I suppose, can't use the windscreen wiper bottle eh?

I will try fairy when I get some from home on Monday.

[Hitokiri]

Much has been said in this forum on Methanol, but here is an except from a great book by Graham Bell with respect to Nitro. Please excese typos, after typing it all I didn't feel like reading it over :)


---------------------------------
On Nitromethane from "Forced Induction Performance Tuning" by A. Graham Bell.

Table 12.4 pg. 185

Specific Gravity Fuel/Air Ratio Heat Energy
Nitromethane: 1.13 1:2 5000 btu/lb
premium unleaded .74 1:12 19,000
Methanol .79 1:4.5 12,500

Nitromethane use and blending:

Nitromethane is different again, and if you look at the fuel characteristeics table(table 12.4) you will see that it is not even assigned an octane number (becuase there are too many variables). yet it can easily double the power of an engine burning petrol/ This is possible through nitor's very special chemical composition, and owing to the fact that extremely rich mixtues can be burned satifactorily. In itself, nitromethane is a very poor fuel, but becuase it contains approximatly 53% oxygen by weight it permits the induction of large quantities of fuel into the engine for conversion to heat energy. Also because it burns so slowly it continues to allpy force to the pistons almost to the bottom of the power stroke.

In the past, nitromethane was burned in the most power drag machines in ratio's of 80-90% nitro and 10-20% Methanol, but today very little methanol is blended in, with most Top Fuel rails running 98% nitro. On the speedway scene and hill climbs, nitro is used (often illegally) in smaller percentages (usually 10-20%) as a power booster. Methanol is the base fuel, and acetone plus other doping agents may also me added (plus about .5% castor oil as an odour masking agent).

To deter detonation or other engine damange, it is always necessary to reduce the compression ratio when nitro is used. At all times air/fuel ration must be very rich. With 80-90% blend of nitro it may be as rich as two parts air to one part fuel. Using 20% nitro this would change to three or four parts air to one part fuel.

When blending nitro with other fuels, the safest method to avoid error is to mis according to volume. So, for a 20% nitro blend you would add one liter of nitro to four liters of methanol...

Igniting high percentage nitro is always a problem. Top Fuel dragsters run the equivalent of a mini welder delivering 1.2 amps to each spark plug. As higher percentages of nitro are burned, the combustion rate is reduced (unless a fuel ignition accelerator such as propylene oxide is added). Therefore, the spark advance must be increased, with most Top Fuel engines typically running a system locked on about 50 degrees advance.

Heading: Nitromethane Dangers

There is considerable risk to yourself and other associated with the use of nitro. After combustion, relativily large amounts of vaporized nitric acid are exhausted. The higher the nitro dose, the more acid vapour is released. When inhaled, nitric acid vapours cause a muscle reaction, making it impossible to breath. Therefore, use of the correct gas mask is essencial if the driver is in a position to inhale the exhaust gases. Certainly mechanics working around the car and those in the starting area will have masks. Some people have the idea that nitromethane is explosive. It isn't, but like any fuel it can be made shock sensitive. The following are the main causes of nitro becoming dangerous:

- the addition of hydrazine in fuel blending. Hydrazine is banned in many countrys because of the danger.
- The use of caustic soda or any other alkaline substance for cleaning fuel tanks or lines.
- The use of "unpicked" anodised aluminium fuel tanks. After anodising, the tank must be allowed to stand for a few days filled with a solution of 90%water and 10% vinegar. This serves to remove and deposits remaining in the tank after anodising.
- The use of excessive fuel pump pressure. Nitro is liable to become unstable when confined and subject to shock. Even though some dragsters routinely run 500psi fuel pressure, anything over 100psi should be considered dangerous.

Wen using more than 20% nitro, there is always a danger of a sump fire or explosion because of the large amount of fuel that finds its way past the rings and into the sump. The first signs of such a fire are yellowish flames appearing at any of the breathers. Therefore, it is important to keep an eye on the engine for at least 2-3 minutes after shut down.
--------------------------------

[janis]

@Hitokiri:

Thanks for taking the time to type all this. Very interesting read!

[EvoTio]

Yes, thank you. I also enjoyed this article.

[Richard L]

Hitokiri,

Thanks for coming to our rescue with more comprehensive information about Nitro.

[Richard L]

I have made a few more tests on water, methanol and nitro mix today.
(by volume)

First mixture W50/M40/N10, no separations - perfect mix:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/10a.JPG


Second mixture W50/M30/N20, visible separation -

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/11.JPG
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/12.JPG


Third mixture W50/M35/N15, very small visible separation (one blob)-
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/13a.JPG

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/14.JPG
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/15.JPG

Convert the 50/35/15 by weight:

actual mass:
50/27.65/16.95

normalized % by mass:
52.85/29.23/17.92

If 300ml/minute is injected into the engine, you will get approximately 26.9g of oxygen. if you are pushing in 10kg of air into the engine, the nitro will be adding another 12.8% of oxygen. Doesn't seem possible, someone please check!

[hotrod]

Okay --- numbers check

10 Kg/min of air --- air contains 23.16% oxygen by mass.

That is a mass oxygen flow rate from the air of 2,316 gm/min
------------------------------

Nitromethane CH3NO2 sp gr = 1.139 (20 deg C)

Carbon 12.0111 x1 = 12.0111
Hydrogen 1.008 x 3 = 3.024
Nitrogen 14.0067 x 1 = 14.0067
nonoxygen mass fraction (29.0418)
Oxygen 15.9994 x 2 = 31.9988

Nitromethane Gram molar weight = 61.0406

Oxygen content by mass = 52.4221584%

At 300 ml / min of mixture and a mass fraction due to nitro of 17.92% that would yield 53.76 gm of nitromethane, containing 28.18 gm oxygen.

air flow supplies 2316 gm/min O2 + 28.18 gm/min of O2 from the nitromethane = 2344.2 gm/min.

I figure that out to be an additional 1.2022236 % oxygen.
You might be off by one decimal place Richard.

It looks to me that by mass, that injection rate of nitromethane would add about 1.2% oxygen by mass. That would be the equivalent to increasing air flow by 121.6 gm/min or enough oxygen for 2-3 hp.

Obviously at lower airflow rates, like mid range rpm the proportion of extra oxygen contributed by the water/methanol/nitro mix would go up proportionately. At a 5 kg/min air flow you would be adding 2.4% oxygen with your 300 ml/min injection. That would likely be a noticable increase in initial throttle response and low midrange torque. Also by effectively automatically leaning the mixture when the WI comes on it might be tailored to give a fail safe setup that would be lean when the water was working but a safe tune if the water spray was off.

As far as your mixes go. You might try adding a small portion of acetone to your mix. In gasoline alcohol mixes the addition of a higher alcohol like acetone helps any water stay in suspension. The same effect may help with your nitromethane. A mixed alcohol like 75% methanol + 25% ethanol may have some possibilities as well.

Larry

[Richard L]

That sounds much better - I was one decimal point out for sure, thank you. hotrod.

It would be interesting to work out injecting 300cc of pure nitro into a 10kg/min air stream. a quick calculation says 20-30hp? - a/f leaning could be a problem but if all turbo cars run rich under boost - the excess fuel may now be used for power?

At present, I can only managed to dessolve 15% of nitro into the mix. I will try adding ethanol and acetone and see if the nitro% can be increased.

[Richard L]

hotrod,

Have tried acetone but not successful. I have the following mix:

W50/M20/N20/A10, the nitro was in suspense and settle on the bottom of the flask a few seconds later.

Also tried:
W50/E30/N20, same result and nitro remained at the bottom of the flask.

It appears that I have to reduce water and increase methanol% to go beyond 15% of Nitro.

Any more ideas?

[hotrod]

Richard :

It appears that I have to reduce water and increase methanol% to go beyond 15% of Nitro.

Any more ideas?

Not at the moment, the simple solution would likely be to drop the water content slightly. Just out of curiosity have you double checked to be sure the bolus that is settling out is the nitro rather than the water ?? As I recall nitro is supposed to be infinitely soluable with methanol just as methanol is infinitely soluble with water. Seems at least possible that some water is coming out of solution rather than the nitro.

A long eye dropper to suck it up and test it for flamability comes to mind.

The other option would be to make a more complex system (not my prefered choice), one injection jet supplied with methanol/nitro and another with water methanol. If you controlled both with independent HSV's it would make some interesting combinations possible, but I'm not a fan of doing things the hard way unless absolutely necessary. You would also need a more advanced / flexible controller than I think most folks can afford.

I very strongly suspect that water is necessary as there is ample evidence that a small mistake with nitro mixtures will melt an engine or blow the block apart. I much prefer the safer approach of starting with a known safe water methanol mix and slowly add nitro and subtract water while monitoring effects on the engine.

If I had a mulitimillion dollar racing budget I might start from the other end, but prefer not to break any more equipment than necessary as it would all come out of my pocket. I think most everyone on this board is in that same boat.

All valid questions and if someone wants to bite the bullet and approach the problem from the sharp end of the stick I'm sure everyone here would be glad to hear the results of the tests.

Larry

[Richard L]

Richard :

It appears that I have to reduce water and increase methanol% to go beyond 15% of Nitro.

Any more ideas?

Not at the moment, the simple solution would likely be to drop the water content slightly. Just out of curiosity have you double checked to be sure the bolus that is settling out is the nitro rather than the water ?? As I recall nitro is supposed to be infinitely soluable with methanol just as methanol is infinitely soluble with water. Seems at least possible that some water is coming out of solution rather than the nitro.

A long eye dropper to suck it up and test it for flamability comes to mind.

The other option would be to make a more complex system (not my prefered choice), one injection jet supplied with methanol/nitro and another with water methanol. If you controlled both with independent HSV's it would make some interesting combinations possible, but I'm not a fan of doing things the hard way unless absolutely necessary. You would also need a more advanced / flexible controller than I think most folks can afford.

Larry


I have to assume that it was nitro because it was heavier than water, I could be wrong. I first mixed the nitro with methanol, M60/N40 - perfect mix. I then add water the same amount of water to the mix.

As more water was poured in, little droplet of oily residue began to appear and eventually it settled at the bottom (as seen). I will pipette it out and test it for flammability or check its density - I have no other means of confirmation.

Here is some more pictures M50N50 and followed by W50/M25/N25 (see the smal residue on the bottom)

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/10.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/nitromethane/10b.jpg

[Richard L]

hotrod,

I wonder if you can calculate at what M/N so that the mixture is 100% self-supporting for complete combustion? My chemistry is worse than my spelling.

I am trying to put a M/N mix (complete combustion) ans see how many % of water I can add to the mixture before separation.

[hotrod]

I wonder if you can calculate at what M/N so that the mixture is 100% self-supporting for complete combustion?


I don't think you can do that.

There will always be a need for addtional oxygen to burn both Nitromethane and methanol. They just need much less oxygen than gasoline for complete combustion.

Net result is you can burn much more fuel for a given amount of combustion air.

Nitromethane Gram molar weight = 61.0406

Oxygen content by mass = 52.4221584%

Assuming the following reaction is correct;

1 ( CH3-NO2 ) + 2(O2) = HNO3 + CO2 + H2O

Then you need 2x 31.9988 grams oxygen = about 63.9976 grams oxygen to burn every 61.0406 grams on nitro methane, instead of the approx 3.381 grams of oxygen needed to completely burn 1 gram of gasoline.

The stoich mixture for Nitro then is about 1.04844 :1 oxygen to nitro.
Since Air is 23.16% oxygen by weight, then the fuel air ratio for complete combustion of Nitro would be about 4.52696:1. This means Nitro only needs .3079 x the oxygen as gasoline to burn completely.

Larry



In rough terms for each gram of gasoline fuel you replace with Nitro, you free up about 2.3 grams of oxygen that is still available to burn something else.

[Richard L]

larry,

Thanks for your help.

I was trying to work out how muuh % of methanol by weight should be added to nitromethane for a self-contained package to be inejcted into the engine without causing leanness.

If the stoich mixture of Nitro is 1.04844:1, injection 100% nitro into the air stream will not cause any leaning to the a/f ratio of main mixture inside the engine?

Neat Nitro injection is the way to go?

[cuprabaz]

Sorry guys i'm being lazy here! but what was the outcome regarding the mixture of the nitromethane, methanol etc etc?

[cuprabaz]

Anyone?

[Richard L]

I don't think any one has tried to yet.

I will soon.

[megafreakindeth]

u can buy nitromethane from snow performance(www.snowperformance.net) they recocomend a specific mixture or else you'll lean out. im going to run a straight water then rpm switch over to another container of whatever the ideal mixture is of the nitro for when my cam gets into powerband. probably better on the tires that way.

methanol can be found on e-bay at a slow trickle 28 dolalrs for a gallon plus 16 for shipping an explosive substance. im not sure if tis technically allowed to be sold on ebay but ive bought worse.

[Richard L]

u can buy nitromethane from snow performance(www.snowperformance.net) they recocomend a specific mixture or else you'll lean out.

We have been through the discussion of mixture strength by introducing nitromethane into an engine earlier on this thread.

You can run nitromethans on its own without any leaning up.
stoichometric ratio of neat nitro is 1.04844:1, so it is near enough 1:1. Unlike air and fuel, the mixture will maintain excellent homologous after dissociation.

If you are concern about leaness, mix 20% methanol and it will guarantee the mixture is on the "rich" side.

You can purchase nitromethane from any race fuel supplier at $30 per gallon


http://www.pricechemical.com/nitromethane.htm
http://www.worldwideracingfuels.com/catalog_i790067.html?catId=30758

[cuprabaz]

So would i be right in saying that i'd fill my bottle with 1ltr nitro and 1ltr water? or is there anything else needing to be added?

[Richard L]

No, you just inject nitro only - no water.

I have just given you the stoichometric value for nitro. This is the same as giving you a stoicometric value for gasoline as 14.5:1

Much much stress your engine can take is not know. If oyu read the earlier post, you will see top fuel drag car now run almost 100% nitro.

I think 80% notro and 20% methanol will gusrantee that the mixture wil be on the rich side of stoichometric.

[cuprabaz]

The vag 1.8t is good for 330bhp 320lbf-ft in standard form then rods start giving way!!

How much of a boost in bhp would i be expecting from injecting Nitro?

[Richard L]

about 8000BHP at a flowrate of 3.6 gallon a second.

[cuprabaz]

wow that's serious bhp!!

So trying this is not for the faint hearted then, by my thinking it'll either work a treat or go bang big style!

[Richard L]

I don't think you should try it.

looking back from some previous calculatiOn, it appears that every 100cc/m injected wil give about 4-5hp.

[hotrod]

Yes I would agree with Richard on this one!!

If you plan on playing with nitromethane injection, its definitely a cutting edge sort of experiment and should not be attempted by folks that are not willing to lose an engine to the "cause of research".

Once a few people plow the ground a bit and we have a recipe for it that is known to work, it will likely become much like nitrous injection.

It should be safe if used according to proven good practice, but for the short term this is a "gee in theory this should work really good" sort of idea and you would definitely be well advised to go very slowly with proper instrumentation to know what is happening inside the engine.

I don't want someone coming back and pointing a finger at me and saying --- but you said it would work!!

Play with this stuff with your eyes open and understand we are exploring a new application with very little live test data at this point. There may be a surprise or two out there for folks running Nitromethane / WI setups.

Larry

[Roverdose]

i see that injecting nitromethane will burn on nearly a 1:1 ratio, but where is the extra oxygen going to come from if my engine is running at 11:1 air fuel ratio at high revs. (2L 4pot turbo)

would it burn the oxygen left over that the petrol doesnt burn or should i lean the fuelling off a bit?

Drew

[Richard L]

Sorry that I have not made clear. The Nitro itself has 50% fuel and 50% oxygen combined it doesn't need extra oxygen or extra fuel to support its burn.

The reason for adding 20% methanol to it is to ensure that it burns on the "rich" side.

[cuprabaz]

There may be a surprise or two out there for folks running Nitromethane / WI setups.

Larry

What do you mean by that mate?


So it looks like we'll have to order Nitrobooster from Snow Performance, as it is tried and tested.

[hotrod]

What do you mean by that mate?

Just what it says, --- there is very little history with this sort of application, and that nearly always means there are things we don't know that someone will learn the hard way. With Nitrous oxide it was things like be sure you have a reliable fuel supply and never let your engine experience a fuel cut while spraying. Do not spray at low rpm, do not use platinum plugs etc. etc.

I would not be surprised that the same sort of lessons are out there for Nitro-WI setups.

I just don't want folks to go trotting off and pouring a big slug of Nitro in their system and than whinning when they break something. If you know up front your dabbling in an unknown area and are willing to accept some risks that come from pushing the envelope good for ya --- let me know what you learn.

Just reading between the lines on some of the posts on this thread, I think a few folks do not appreciate that this concept sounds like it has a lot of potential but has very little track record to go by.

I'm older than most of you and have seen this sort of enthusiasum before, for new performance "tricks". People have a tendency to push too far into the unknown without realizing there are some risks involved. Unfortunately the ones that push too far are frequently the ones least prepared to understand the gains and risks posed by a new system.


So it looks like we'll have to order Nitrobooster from Snow Performance, as it is tried and tested.

Just because its for sale does not mean its " tried and tested"

Snow Performance is a local company and they appear to produce good products. I have not had the opportunity to meet Matt yet but someday I'd like to trot down and talk with him. I know several folks that run his WI system here in the Denver area and all speak highly of it. ---But I have yet to meet anyone that has actually used the Nitro-booster stuff or seen any actual "test data" that would demonstrate how well it works. To date the only first person information we have regarding Nitro and WI, is a couple of contributors to this and related threads. That is not a lot of data.

I guess I'm just cautious by nature ---- Snow Performance also cautions on their web site that using too much will cause a lean condition although they don't elaborate. I would be much more comfortable with the whole thing if they published a bit more info, like how much the EGT changed, effects on ignition timing etc.

I don't want to appear to be bashing them, just being a cautious consumer. In fact I would love to see them contribute to this discussion!! As at the moment they are the only vendor I know of that is actively marketing this application.

Larry

[Roverdose]

Sorry that I have not made clear. The Nitro itself has 50% fuel and 50% oxygen combined it doesn't need extra oxygen or extra fuel to support its burn.

The reason for adding 20% methanol to it is to ensure that it burns on the "rich" side.

ahh i may well have miss read it.

would the nitro have the same cooling effects as water when injected into the air stream?

Drew

[cuprabaz]

Thanks for that. :wink:

Think i'll be leaving well alone for now until i make my first million!!

Bigger IC and Nitrous looks like the best option.

[Roverdose]

any problems with nitro running through a 0.3 jet?
considering using direct port on the nitro.

Drew

[Roverdose]

well i just bought a 2nd hand aquamist with dds2.
can one pump handle 4 x0.3 jets and can i run that from 1 hsv?

will i need to replace the seals in the pump?

Drew

[Richard L]

Yes, each 0.3mm jet flow 75cc/min. On HSV and one pump is perfect.

You must also order a 30um inline filter and used as a secondary filter after the main 100um filter. This is because the 0.3mm jet has a 25um filter inbuilt and will clog up quickly if you don't have the pre-filter.

[Roverdose]

will nitromethane attack aluminium?

Drew

[Richard L]

I will drop a piece of ali into the nitro for you and tellyou the result in a few days.

[Roverdose]

cool, i have a spare alu tank that i dont want to use for the water/methanol mix, just wondering if i can use it for the nitromethane instead.

Drew

[Wet1]

Hmmm...

[Richard L]

Why compromise, inject 100% nitro!!!
:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:


I don;t think you need water in the mix. Get a separate system purely for nitro and leave the WI alone. It might be useful to suppress detonation if nitro induces it.

I think you can get a low cost water injection for that purpose. Hotrod and I both agreeed that you will get about 3-4 hp/100cc/minute. if you are aiming for 30-40 HP, go for injection rate of 1000cc/min. In drag racing terms, a 10-second pass will only use up 180cc of nitro - pretty cheap fun - cheaper if you only inject after 1/8th mile.

[Roverdose]

looking back over the thread there is a good few paragraphs on page 5.

To deter detonation or other engine damange, it is always necessary to reduce the compression ratio when nitro is used.


Igniting high percentage nitro is always a problem. Top Fuel dragsters run the equivalent of a mini welder delivering 1.2 amps to each spark plug. As higher percentages of nitro are burned, the combustion rate is reduced Therefore, the spark advance must be increased.

Drew

[hotrod]

I'd also be inclined to run a separate system for the nitro. Much better control that way, you could only spray the nitro at certain times to cut the costs etc.

I would be inclined to always use a methanol nitro mix for the simple reason that that would give you a handy means to tweak the amount of nitro your using by changing the mixture rather than changing the spray jets.

If I did it I would probably also go direct port injection to ensure the injection rate was balanced between the cylinders. I'd also keep a WI system setup to manage any detonation/ heat load issues the nitro may create.

My instinct would be to trigger an additional WI spray jet along with the nitro until tests show it is not necessary. (I like to take my time and work up slowly and methodically on radical changes like this)

I suspect that at high usage rates detonation could be an issue so would want to keep a little WI reserve capacity available.

Ignition should not be a big issue as you have normal fuel combustion to light off the nitro.

Keep in mind this sort of settup will share some characteristics with a nitrous system. For example if you spray the nitro at low rpm in a simple on off type system you will spray more nitro per engine revolution than you will at higher rpm. That would have the effect of automatically cutting back the flow of nitro at high rpm.

In a system that tracks the injector duty cycle you would have a more rpm independent rate of injection..

Larry

[Wet1]

Hmmm...

[Joe P]

Wet1, I thought that increasing methanol to more than 50% in a mix with water INCREASES the likelyhood of detonation ?

[Wet1]

Hi Joe,
That seems to be the common belief, but I and many others have not found that to be 100% true. Each serves a different purpose to a certain degree and there it some good historical data to indicate that a M50/W50 mix works well, but many of us in the US have found that using more methanol allows us to make more power... maybe just because of the oxygen content of this fuel... I don't know, but we've found that we can maximize a combination to make more power with high methanol concentrations than we can with a 50/50 mix. Unfortunately, many WI systems can't handle the undiluted methanol so a system has to be built around it's use.

Lets try to stay on topic in this thread... if you want to talk more about this, there was another thread on this topic a little while back....
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=673

[Wet1]

Interesting...

[Roverdose]

found this while searching on google...

NITROMETHANE Nitromethane - usually used as a mixture with methanol to reduce peak flame temperatures - also provides excellent increases in volumetric efficiency of IC engines - in part because of the lower stoichiometric air-fuel ratio (1.7:1) and relatively high heats of vaporisation ( 0.56 MJ/kg ) result in dramatic cooling of the incoming charge. The nitromethane Specific Energy at stoichiometric ( heat of combustion divided by air-fuel ratio ) of 6.6, compared to 2.9 for iso-octane, indicates that the fuel energy delivered to the combustion chamber is 2.3 times that of iso-octane for the same mass of air. Coupled with the higher flame temperature ( 2400C ), and flame speed (0.5 m/s), it has been shown that a 50% blend in methanol will increase the power output by 45% over pure methanol, however knock also increased.

Drew

[svtcobras]

I used to use this stuff in my dragbike. Absolutely gave me 3/10
http://www.pricechemical.com/

[mrx79]

Hallo,
i read this thread very carefully because i'am very very interested in the Nitro/Meth/Water inj. issue.
just to get a better overview for myself and maybe to solve some open questions i have made a conclusion
about whats (maybe) facts until now.

If something is wrong, please correct me (my open questions are in brakets behind the statements)
its just not a guarantee, its only what i have understood from reading the thread and maybe there are also
some false informations in it... so please feel free to correct and add som informations.

Thanks
Malte

Conclusion:
-----------

Mixture knowledge:
==================

- 70HP/150Nm gain from mixture: 70/25.5/4.5 W/M/N [without problems]
- unknown but good results from: 34/56/10 W/M/N
- from what we know until now a mixture of: 60/20/20 W/M/N should be possible without causing too much drama
- nobody has results from the snowperformance nitrobooster until now.
Question from me: did someone know how much % nitro / % methanol is contained in nitrobooster? and what mixture will result if using the 8oz on 2-qt as written on the homepage?
- There is a small forum over at snowperformance.net and the folks there say that it will NOT mix with water, and that best bet is 50% methanol 50% nitromethane.

- Hotrod and I (Richard L) both agreeed that you will get about 3-4 hp/100cc/minute

Dissolve knowlegde:
===================

- 33/33/33 W/M/N couldn't dissolve all the nitro
- 50/40/10 W/M/N, no separations - perfect mix
- 50/35/15 W/M/N, very small visible separation (one blob)
- 50/30/20 W/M/N, visible separation
- Acetone and Ethanol doesn't help to dissolve more then 15% Nitro. Maybe reducing the water content helps.


What do what?
=============

- Water has only a cooling effect on the intake air
- Methanol is an additional fuel so it:
- enrich the mixture if no more oxygen is brought into the combustion process.
- has a cooling effect?!? (i'am not sure)
- is needed to dissolve nitro
- brings hp because more fuel can be burned?!? (i'am not sure)
- 50/50 W/M is most effective when used without Nitro (with Nitro -> no info)
- a higher amount of Methanol can cause detonation?!? (not sure)
- Nitro:
- contains aprox. 50% additional fuel and 50% additional oxygen so it makes more hp when ignited.
- knock/pre-ignition ability?!? (unknown for me at the moment)
- cooling effect due to the relatively high heats of vaporisation
- with the higher flame temperature ( 2400C ), and flame speed (0.5 m/s), it has been shown that a 50% blend in methanol will increase the power output by 45% over pure methanol, however knock also increased

- usually used as a mixture with methanol to reduce peak flame temperatures

Open Questions:
===============

- how do i calculate which is the ideal mixture for a given W/M/N mix when i only have a Wideband Lambda meter which is calibrated for normal unleaded fuel.
- what will happen if i mix W/M/N mix together with normal injected race fuel (leaded/unleaded with high octane ratings)
- how do you calculate your WI jet size for a W/M/N mix? same as for Water/Mathanol injection?

[Speedy G]

Very cool thread, I'm just not very impressed regarding the quantity of fuel needed to make some interesting power. Do I have this right?

100ml/min of PURE NitroMethane will only produce 3-4Hp?


That's the regular size injector for the snowperformance kit. My fuel injectors are 440ml/min so you want me to inject 25% nitromethane with respect to fuel for an extra 3-4Hp? Did you mean 100ml/min of injected mixture produces 3-4Hp?

I'll try to hack the computation from the energy content data given earlier:

50/40/10 W/M/N mixture, assume 100lbs of mixture

0 BTU/lbs * 50 = 0
5000 BTU/lbs * 10 = 50,000
12500 BTU/lbs * 40 = 500,000

Total 550,000 BTU/100lbs = 5,500BTU/lbs

400ml/min*4 = 1600ml/min of fuel and 360bhp

so

1600ml/min*19,000BTU/lbs =30,400,000 (don't care about units ok?)


30,400,000/ 360 = 84,444

Now for the mixture

100ml/min * 5500BTU/lbs = 550,000

550,000/Hp = 84,444 <- Hp is 6.5 Hp

That means I'm getting 6.5Hp for a 100ml/min injector, injecting the mixture, and it looks like the methanol is responsible for > 80% of the power made.

So, again, why add nitromethane? I guess the guy from 2 posts ago said why. The thing is you'll have to inject a lot of it. Let me see what a 50/50 methanol/nitromethane mix does:

50 * 5000 = 250,000
50 * 12500 = 625,000

875,000/ 84,444 = 10Hp with a less than 2.5:1 A/F ratio

That's a cool round number, for every 100ml of 50/50 M/NM you get 10Hp.


It would be cool to find something that would neutralize the nitric acid exhaust. Although I like power, I don't like acid eating up my custom exhaust.

Speedy G

[mrx79]

Hallo Speedy G,

mathematicaly thats maybe true, but why did the guy who started the thrad makes 75hp with his nitro mix? i don't see any reason for this...

but you are true and thats what i also thought about... nitro has not much BTU and if you want to make power out of it you must inject much of it...

by the way... the guys who made nitro injection... did you reduce the fuel amount? because if i inject much fuel i.e. 11:1 AFR and then additional methanol and nitro which makes my mixtrue even richer, didn't we come to a point where not enough oxygen is available to produce power?

ok with nitro, it brings most of his o2 by itself ut methanol not... and even nitro need some extra o2 from the air... so did you reduce the fuel amount?

maybe we can discuss how the big power gains from little nitro content comes from?

Thanks
Malte.

[Speedy G]

The thing is that nobody did a test with only 1 variable, and it's difficult. What I'm wondering about is that if you inject methanol & water, aren't you in fact enriching the mix beyond what is combustable?

I think that methanol and water really just cool the Air and the combustion, but nitromethane brings oxygen so it too can be blown up.

The 75hp or so that the guy was talking was probably achieved with just an increase in ignition advance and maybe a higher possible max boost. I really don't see how a 100ml/min injection of nitromethane can provide much in terms of HP. However... if you were to add nitrous oxide....

Speedy G

[mrx79]

Hallo,

yes you are right... but hasn't he used water or warter/Methanol befor try nitro?
and if yes, its true that water and methanol cool the charge so can have an effect but nitro don't do that, it only brings some o2 (not much at 100ml/min) and some fuel so i normaly it should have no effect...

i guess i will have to tune a car in next spring with water/meth. injection and in this process i will do some test with different (small) nitro tests... maybe this gives us some compareable results...

buy hope someone can bring some stuff also into play ;-)

Thanks
Malte.

[janis]

mathematicaly thats maybe true, but why did the guy who started the thrad makes 75hp with his nitro mix? i don't see any reason for this...

.

I have my reservations regarding those figures.

[mrx79]

100ml/min of PURE NitroMethane will only produce 3-4Hp?

Hallo Speedy G,

when you look at the snowperformance homepage there is a product called nitrobooster (mentioned earlier in this thread) if your calculations are correct then this product must be totaly stupid, because it will bring at least 1hp maximum...

the content of this bottle are 8oz =>226 grams even if its 100% nitro (which i don't think) and you fill it up into a 2qt tank of 50/50 W/M ... what nitro percentage you will get... very less... and so ... no hp increase... but can that be... ?!?

@janis: maybe you can give us some information about how the +75hp come together or if they are true...

Thanks
Malte.

[janis]

@janis: maybe you can give us some information about how the +75hp come together or if they are true...

Thanks
Malte.

the +75HP wasn't my car, it was his own car. He works for a tuning shop, the car has a lot of stuff installed that they sell, not just WI.

Janis

[Richard L]

We have found some interetsing results by running a small percentage of nitro (W50:M40:N10). We have gain more calculated power and retarded ignition (2-3 degrees).

This is most probably due to the engine speed of 8K+ and flame speed is more important to produce top-end power. (skyline)

I was trying establish if the retarded timing is good or bad - either the knock level was lowered or frame speed was higher due to the nitro. But power output is increased, so I have to assume that the flame speed is increased. Guessing at this stage. I am not going to push nitromethanol vs nitrous gas debate. It will no doubt appear soon on another thread.

Ideally, you want a fast burning+ high knock resistance fuel. Hotrod has posted some interesting additive on another post:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=457&start=45

I think either hotrod's suggested additive will be good for this or nitro can do the same thing. At present we are pushing forward on the nitro experiment.

[Donkeypunch]

Cool, I am eagerly awaiting the results of this test, I have read the thread, and really want to see if it is feasible. I have a snow kit, and have seen the nitrobooster on their site, and had some reservations about whether or not it was really all it is cracked up to be.

DP

[stevieturbo]

Just joined up, and spotted this thread. I have never done any testing myself, but a while back, I did spot this thread over on another forum, where a guy did some testing with nitromethane. His quantities do sound a lot lower than you guys suggest.


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346931&highlight=nitro

[Richard L]

Just joined up, and spotted this thread. I have never done any testing myself, but a while back, I did spot this thread over on another forum, where a guy did some testing with nitromethane. His quantities do sound a lot lower than you guys suggest.


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=346931&highlight=nitro

I have read through the above link, very intersting. I am not sure if I understand how they entercountered the drastic effect with only 4%. We have ran upto 20%, didn't experience such swing in the a/f ratio change.

Since I have only just started experimenting, my knowledge on the subject is not very good, but am learning slowly. But I can say that under careful controlled conditions, we have made good power with it for sure.

Richard

[Rootzz06]

Are you guys running this through your alky injection kit or mixed with your gasoline in tank?

[Richard L]

I think it is mostly manifold injection type.

[EvoTio]

Are you guys running this through your alky injection kit or mixed with your gasoline in tank?

water injection mix.

[meansrt]

The lubricant clogged my filter , pump , and injectors. Nitro is a great power boost , but not with the lube in it.

[Richard L]

what system are you using?

[meansrt]

what system are you using?
I'll be installing a Engine Runup kit this Thursday .... MUCH better !!!
http://www.enginerunup.com/index.php

[sdminus]

Has there been anymore development. Im thinking of trying but nitrometane seems to be a controlled substance at the mo as well as methanol

Scott

[sdminus]

I had my first play todqay with differant chemicals. I had a play with a 10 %mix of nitro as found a small perfrmance gain. It was mixed with methanol which made my afrs go a big crazy.

Scott

[Richard L]

You are about a have a great deal of fun from now on. just run nitro and methanol 50/50.

Richard

[sdminus]

i was thinking of going a bit higher but not thought of that. It so far with the meth has richened up my afr by a lot. more than the same run on 100% meth. does this seem normal across the board. Ive gone from a nice 12.5 to 11 afr from 0 vac to 15 psi to 10.5 - 10.3 all across the boost areas. This would give it huge potential for tuning.

Scott

[Richard L]

If you have so much more fuel available, why not use more nitro?

[sdminus]

Thats kinda the plan. I can use the extra fuel to add a little saftey untill i reach my final ratio of nitromethane. With The quantity im adding in at the moment at 35 deg air charge there is noway its all atomising properly and must be going in wet. I have got to try and get some more nitro from some place but im am drawing blanks so far

[Richard L]

Nitromethane is now a "controlled" substance. A gallon of Nitromethane will do a great deal of damage in the wrong set of hands. I think you can get this from:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/nitro3.jpg

[sdminus]

I will try and call them again tomorrow and hopfully source some.

Before i try again with a stronger mix im in two minds as what to do with the afr's and timing.

I have seen a reduction in knock at peak torque and what seems like a slight shift in its position on the data log. Also the afrs are filthy rich. By at least 7 % richer.

Do i leave it all as it is and up the amonut of nitro and use the excess fuel as a safe guard ( I think it will lean out again when i fettle the mix )

OR

Re tune the boost cells and run the same mix.

Scott

[sdminus]

G max are really hard to buy from. You have to give them so many details.

Im gonna have to drop the nitro plans for now and tune with water meth.
I need to race in may and test in april.

In desperation i used 20% niro mix RC fuel. I was injecting with a map sensor driven ramp up in delivery. This was up to a peak of 4 GPH at full boost 1.10 Bar. ( boost varies from 0.98 bar to 1.10 bar) There was no noted gain from the logs.
I loged the following
100% water
100% Meth
50:50 water meth
10:74:18 nitro meth edl oil ( RC fuel)
20:70:10 nitro meth edl oil ( RC fuel)
And a contol measure with no injection
These were all logged at a peak fueling of 90% of 44GPH with a ramp to 4 GPH of additional mix

I used the same ramp on the same strech of track (LOL) on the same day at similar charge temps
The clear performance winner was 100% water which i was surprised about.
I didnt alter my tune for any of the runs,


I have the details of these logs. ( all apart from egt ) if any body wants further details let me know.

If i can get the pure nitro i will go for the 50:50 mix or a metered 100% nitro. ( 100% nitro would only give me 10% of my over all fuel in nitro )

I have other jets which total 8 GPH so far.

Scott

I have been working from some figures complied which indicate the max amount of water of water meth you can add to XX air temp and achieve good atomisation. Does anybody have details for nitromethane. In all the above tests i was injecting way to much mixture. I have simince done a 50:50 meth water tune and reduced my afrs to 11.8 afr. I am yet to get an egt to see the exact implications of this, However the previous AFR was in the mid to low 10's at 1.10 Bar

[mike_g60]

so what this is saying is that unless you intend to ge the car tuned to suit the injection mix the only thing that will help performance is a standard water mix? i currently run a 70/30 mix of water and methanol , i was thinking of trying R/C car fuel but i am not sure its safe now.... only thinking of a 60/30/10 mix of water/meth/nitro, will the oil in the R/C car fuel have an effect in small ratios such as 10% ?? tried a small mix today and it all wnet cloudy :cool:

[sdminus]

I have now re tuned for 50:50 but want to go 70:30 when i have more time.

When i pulled the plenim of the car for inspection you could smell the RC fuel. You could also see the oil on the throttle flaps.

To get a benefit from the nitro i would say you need qa very high mix of it. Maybe like richard said 50:50 nitro meth. OR add 100% nitro into a very rich fuel map.

I have gained a bit of power back in my re tune and have pulled fuel back from 10.7 to 11.8.

I like the fuel addition of methanol. t makes the tune easier.

Scott

[raddy]

Hi
I just tested 100%nitromethane injected by the coolingmist ( www.coolingmist.com ) WI kit. I dont know exact size of nozzle (it is 216-360hp range). With injection of pure nitromethane I can feel some power gain, but not massive. Timing is stock, 15Bdeg BTDC, without any det. Pure nitromethane can be probably used with larger nozzle in my engine, until it will induce dets...

[sdminus]

Did you datalog your runs at all. or do you have any more info at all

Scott

[raddy]

Sorry, I havent any logs. But as I said, power gains was not massive, my nozzle is about 0.5mm size....Becouse of price of nitro I will use just water and raise boost pressure.

[sdminus]

Nitro mix below 2% of overall fuel will not do much. A 0.5 jet is really tiny. When i ran mine i was using a 1x 1.0 GPH and 1 x 3.0 GPH jet. Nitro really messes up the stoich value of the fuel so keep an eye on egt and lambda. I cant see why you would add water. It wont mix with nitro at all. If anything add methanol with a bigger jet. What car / engine you running

Scott

[raddy]

thanks for reply. I have same opinion that 0.5mm nozzle is just too small even for pure nitro. Im little bit affraid about experiments with raising nitro delivery, so probably will using system just for water injection....
Im running Nissan 200sx, ca18det engine with T3 turbo and about 300hp at flywheel...

[sdminus]

any more progress in this

[sdminus]

bump

[raddy]

sorry, I was litlle bit out....
I stopped trying nitromethane becouse I found red colored water inside of pump. It was red from rust probably. I never know before how much is this agressive, but it can eat metal can in few weeks....
Anyway, pump is running fine, but only with common water mixtures.

And another reason was that I added second nozzle prior turbo, dont want to flow nitromethane through it... :?

[sdminus]

Oh. i was thinking of picking up the trial. What differances did you have to make to the tune.

Scott

[raddy]

Sorry, I dont understand what exactly you mean.

[nul7]

Hey guys, I just got a WI kit for my car and have been doing a lot of research of blends. Searching on google brought me to SRTForums.com which lead me here. I read this thread with much interest. I see there are a few people running R/C fuel for the nitromethane content but with the horror stories of the added oils gumming up the system, I really didn't want to do that. Based on the info in this thread I really wanted to give NM a try so I've been doing a little research on the web and have found a company that custom blends R/C fuels. I sent them an email to see if they would be willing to blend a fuel without oils or additives and got a promising reply:

It is possible to mix NM with MA without any oils and additives.
Nitro Methane is mixed with methanol 80%MA + 20% NM then they will ship in quart bottles and the shipping would be UPS ground.
The price for 20%Nitro Methane,80%Methanol in a mix form is $24.43/gallon+ UPS ground freight.
Minimum order quantity is 1 gallon (4 quarts)
You can get better prices for your volume orders. There are also other price breaks on the order of 16qts,
20 qts.,12 gal.,24 gal., or 64 gallons.
You can always adjust your blend when you reorder according to your desire. Customer satisfaction is what we give value to. Let me know if you have more questions. Thank you.


Serpil (Sera) & John Wilson, Ali Oklay Sales Mgrs.
FHS Supply, Inc.
PO Box 9
Clover, SC 29710-0009
(800) 742-8484 toll-free
(803) 222-7488 tel
(803) 222-7285 24 hr fax
email: FHSoil@aol.com
web: http://members.aol.com/FHSoil

From what I've read on the net FHS is a highly reputable company (although you couldn't tell by their website design. lol) With the 80/20 blend you could just do equal parts water and fuel and get the perfect 50/40/10 blend as discussed earlier in this thread. Seems to be a great price (especially when compared to the $30/8oz NitroBoost Snow Performance sells!). Just thought I would pass on the info for other people... hopefully this isn't against the forum rules. I don't have any connection with FHS... and had never even heard of them until Saturday so I'm not trying to advertise or anything.

[keithmac]

I`ve recently switched over to E85 for my main fuel and this means my methanol injection setup is now redundant for what I originally used it for (knock suppression).

I have a set of 6 0.3mm jets in port injection location so I`m going to do a little experimenting with some RC fuel, I also have some 0.8`s and 1.0`s to play with.

Due to the nature of nitromethane and the world wide shortage all I can get my hands on is a gallon bottle of 33% nitro RC fuel for testing (reading here I need near pure nitromethane for the best results?).

All my testing will be done at 1/4 mile events, I see trap speed as the best measure of how well my car produces power. Currently I trap 115mph.

Each event I`ll dial the car in first on straight E85 and get some consistant runs in, then inject nitro at differing amounts and see how my trap is affected.

Should have some results by mid 2009.

Just bought a new clutch so fitting that`s the first job on the cards..

Also if anyone knows a supplier in the UK for pure nitro I`m all ears :D.

[raddy]

In RC condition is used ratio of 15-20% of nitromethane to fuel (methanol in this case) for power add. You should use similar ratio, so injection of just 30%nitrmethane mixture should be not enough to notice power gain....Use pure nitromethanol and tune flow to about 15-20% to fuel flow....Just note that neitromethane is realy agressive thing what eat metal, be aware of your pump.

[LAMER]

If you need nitromethane, I can provide some. It is 95 or 98% pure nitromethane. The other 2-5% are chemicals that are used to increase octane number and stability. Use prvt msg or +359 899772550

[Tjabo]

Has anyone done any more followup testing with the Nitromethane in any mixtures with methanol and/or water? I see on Google that it looks like there are some USA suppliers of pure Nitromethane at around $50/gallon. That doesn't seem too bad I guess.

[Tjabo]

Interesting results from your testing below Scott, but it looks to me like the results are largely due to the water only test being the leanest (closest to optimum) mixture. Does that seem true, or am I missing something? ? ?


G max are really hard to buy from. You have to give them so many details.

Im gonna have to drop the nitro plans for now and tune with water meth.
I need to race in may and test in april.

In desperation i used 20% niro mix RC fuel. I was injecting with a map sensor driven ramp up in delivery. This was up to a peak of 4 GPH at full boost 1.10 Bar. ( boost varies from 0.98 bar to 1.10 bar) There was no noted gain from the logs.
I loged the following
100% water
100% Meth
50:50 water meth
10:74:18 nitro meth edl oil ( RC fuel)
20:70:10 nitro meth edl oil ( RC fuel)
And a contol measure with no injection
These were all logged at a peak fueling of 90% of 44GPH with a ramp to 4 GPH of additional mix

I used the same ramp on the same strech of track (LOL) on the same day at similar charge temps
The clear performance winner was 100% water which i was surprised about.
I didnt alter my tune for any of the runs,


I have the details of these logs. ( all apart from egt ) if any body wants further details let me know.

If i can get the pure nitro i will go for the 50:50 mix or a metered 100% nitro. ( 100% nitro would only give me 10% of my over all fuel in nitro )

I have other jets which total 8 GPH so far.

Scott

I have been working from some figures complied which indicate the max amount of water of water meth you can add to XX air temp and achieve good atomisation. Does anybody have details for nitromethane. In all the above tests i was injecting way to much mixture. I have simince done a 50:50 meth water tune and reduced my afrs to 11.8 afr. I am yet to get an egt to see the exact implications of this, However the previous AFR was in the mid to low 10's at 1.10 Bar

[ar design]

Just read the thread - wondering what the reason is for mixing water with the meth/nitro instead of just running 50/50 Meth/Nitro? To make it less dangerous?

[ar design]

Anyone?

[rote8]

Just read the thread - wondering what the reason is for mixing water with the meth/nitro instead of just running 50/50 Meth/Nitro? To make it less dangerous?

Disclaimer- I am not a chemist, well I may be a shade tree chemist.
What I have found:
50/50 Water Methanol will not burn.
Water chemically bonds very strongly with methanol.
Nitromethane kinda stays in suspension in methanol.
Water, added to a mix of nitromethane and methanol will bond with the methanol strong enough to displace the nitromethane.
You can mix (and it will stay mixed) water and methanol or nitromethane and methanol, but never water, nitromethane and methanol. (the water bonds too strongly to methanol)

Straight methanol is wicked for injection intake air temps, but will richen the A/F mixture.
Water cools the intake charge less than methanol, but suppresses detonation better than methanol.
Water methanol is a great combination.

Nitromethane burns at 2.5 units of air to 1 of nitromethane, because it creates oxygen when burned.
Methanol burns at 8 to 1.

A 40/60 nitro/methanol mix injection actually leans the A/F, but stops detonation as well.

Internal engine parts do not like nitromethane...
Spark Plugs go quickly with nitromethane, engines can go from too much raw liquid in the combustion area, or from too much power being made.

Nitromethane is very fun, but costly, no more so than Nitrous Oxide though.

[RICE RACING]

50/50 water to methanol may not burn with a open flame in a saucer on your bench but it sure as hell burns at the right ratio mixed with air and under compression in a combustion chamber ;) you can see this is true by the effect it has an AFR when you measure it V's pure water.

[parmas]

After all these years ...... any news about nitromethane Richard?

[Richard L]

I have not moved forward on this when all the wetted rubber parts just disintegrated. So I stopped. There is no plan to design a N/M system since the stuff is under very strict control due to terrorism.

See the destructive power of nitromethane on EPDM:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/nitro.jpg

[parmas]

I understand Richard. Thank you for your trials in regards!