Replacing the Stock WRX intercooler? [Archive]

mrex180

11-11-2004, 08:28 AM

Would replacing my standard my00 wrx intercooler with a custom made turbo to Throttle body pipe to remove any flow resriction and pressure drops as associated with the stock intercooler and using my current Aquamist 2C to do the intercooling be a step backwards? At the moment my 2c system is only set using boost activation only which is set to come on at 10psi and im using the .8 jet and the HSV is not utilized(Maybe later when i have to more funds). I run a vf24 with a P20 exhaust housing and it's runnning 18psi and the Unichip has been tuned accordingly with water injection factored in.

Cheers Andy

PuntoRex

11-11-2004, 09:45 AM

If you could try injecting both prior to compressor & before throttle, that would be very insteresting.

I believe that can bring you some performence gain & also more aggressive throttle response.

mrex180

11-11-2004, 10:37 AM

What i was thinking of doing was with putting the jet close as possible the the compressor outlet i'm not keen on injecting b4 the compressor as im worried about knocking the blades around to much.So by putting the jet right next to the outlet there should be enough pipe length to fully atomize with air stream before it gets into the cyclinders so its cooled down as much as possible. But i do agree if i do it right there should be a performance gain because of more unrestricted inlet path as you say BUT if im not careful it could be dangerous and have a damaged motor due to det :mad: .. Would 2 jets be needed?

mrex180

09-01-2005, 05:25 AM

If you could try injecting both prior to compressor & before throttle, that would be very insteresting.

I believe that can bring you some performence gain & also more aggressive throttle response.

I have done some measuring using a k-type thermo couple and high accuracy fluke multimeter with a record function and measuring temps on the alloy part of the y-pipe underneath the intercooler i got as follows:
With injecting water post-compressor ( injecting before TB 0.9mm jet) and normally driving the temp sat on 46.4'C AVG (thats with a few full boost squirts, stop at traffic lights ect) then to start things i went WOT 4th gear till 6500rpm then to 5th for a short while i got a measurement of 94.1'C max value then injecting pre-compressor with 0.7mm jet again going WOT in 4th till 6500rpm the temp went to 70.1'C max value which is a good drop from the previous run but i really want no more than 55'C to negate the use of the intercooler.
The turbo also dropped right out of boost and was slow to regain full 18psi too when changing to 5th and going WOT again injecting pre compressor :? ...

I may try the 0.9 jet pre turbo and see the temp results, i could try runing both jets at the same time(0.7 pre-compressor jet & 0.9 pre-TB jet) but i dont think the Aquamist pump will have enough flow...

:Turbo is VF24 with P20 turbine housing still.
:Avg Ambient temp for the time of day during testing was 23'C
:Another fact i noticed when i stopped to refuel and got going the y-pipe temp was in the mid 50's and took at least 8-10mins of 100kmph driving to get back down to the 46'C AVG..

mrex180

25-01-2005, 12:15 PM

Not injecting pre turbo anymore i found damage to the comp blades not very good at all...

janis

26-01-2005, 04:31 PM

Not injecting pre turbo anymore i found damage to the comp blades not very good at all...

Wow, that sounds awfull!!

I was considering pre turbo injection, but reading you post makes me re-consider.

Any idea what caused it, could there have been drops instead of mist?

Janis

mrex180

27-01-2005, 11:57 AM

Well it's an aquamist jet and i got the impression that they atomised the water enough for it to be ok but when i pulled the turbo out to change to a bigger unit the blades on my vf24 looked like they were sand blasted and the very outter edges looked like they were corroded :mad: ill get pic and show u what i mean... :shock: Maybe i just ran a to bigger jet i don't know but im never injecting pre-comp again to find out...

janis

27-01-2005, 01:58 PM

.... but im never injecting pre-comp again to find out...

That trully sucks.

I can sure imagine that you're not too keen on ever trying it again.

Janis

hotrod

28-01-2005, 03:40 AM

It would be interesting to hear some more details, like how far the spray nozzle was up stream and what your turn on point was. Were you spraying pre-turbo all the time or only at high RPM/boost?

larry

PuntoRex

28-01-2005, 04:06 AM

I'm highly interested, too.

I've been using pre-compressor injection for almost 3 months. Nothing wrong is detected from the driver's seat.

My pre-comp jet is very close to the compressor blade, maybe less than 8 inches. It's a 0.5mm jet most of the time, swapped to a 0.4 recently, turned on only at high boost.

Maybe I should take some time to check my turbo, too. It's hard to reach, though :sad:

mrex180

28-01-2005, 11:58 AM

Ill post some pics up tommorrow.. I have a new Avo silcon intake on my rex and where it comes from underneath the manifold and does the bend to goto the AFM they have a 3/4in breather port thats bunged off which is id say now at a guess 9in away from the turbo,so what i did was machine a fitting to place the jet low enough so it flush mounted the face of the jet with surrounding side wall of the pipe so the water would inject into the airstream correctly.(i'll get a pic of that 2) I was injecting at 13psi boost which on my car is 3300rpm approx depending on gear and that was with a 0.7 jet.It has only been for 3 weeks i think if it wasnt for the other turbo going on i would have never known. :shock: ..

mrex180

29-01-2005, 10:32 AM

Compressor Blades After WI (http://au.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kombiez/detail?.dir=86d8&.dnm=62c2.jpg&.src=ph)

Jet placement (http://au.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kombiez/detail?.dir=86d8&.dnm=77fb.jpg&.src=ph)

location of jet from the turbo (http://au.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kombiez/detail?.dir=86d8&.dnm=2549.jpg&.src=ph)

Vf24 compressor wheel before water inj (http://au.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/kombiez/detail?.dir=86d8&.dnm=f217.jpg&.src=ph)

hotrod

29-01-2005, 07:48 PM

Your injection rate appears to be pretty close to my 4 gallon/hr nozzle that I ended up down sizing to a 3 gph ( may go to a 2 gph in the future depending on temp readings when I get my intake air temp stuff in).

Your injection location is just about identical to mine. I am wondering if in both our cases part of the problem is water dropplets forming on the intake tract wall and then skinning down the surface of the intake tube ( like water dropplets run up a wind screen at speed ).

If that is the case -- aside from reducing the injection rate one possibility would be to put a small step in the intake tract just before it reaches the turbo. This would force the large surface dropplet to break off and re-suspend in the air stream.

I would love to do some experiments with a plexiglass tube to see if that is what is happening, and what step shape would pickup the dropplet and re-introduce it into the air stream.

Just a thought.

Larry

mrex180

30-01-2005, 06:44 AM

Larry, i totally agree with you in saying that water droplets are forming on the side walls of the intake tract and that's whats causing the comp blade damage, but as too where the droplets are forming or how far away from the injection point its happening would be good to know?

Im wondering weather on gear changes and wide open throttle the water injection has a bit of run on effect and injects the mist on to the opposite side walls of the inlet tract thus causing formation of droplets for fraction of time your off the throttle between the changes?

It would be good to figure out how to stop the compressor wheel damage as i believe that injecting pre-compressor has good benifits..
Andy..

Richard L

24-03-2005, 10:31 AM

What if the water jet is placed at the center of the compressor wheel? the radial speed is at it lowest and also give the the water droplets to fan outwards rather than hitting the tips randomly.

mrex180

24-03-2005, 01:01 PM

Finding a way to inject pre-comp without blade damage will be hard but it will raise the compressors efficiency to a degree!!!

hotrod

24-03-2005, 11:37 PM

What if the water jet is placed at the center of the compressor wheel? the radial speed is at it lowest and also give the the water droplets to fan outwards rather than hitting the tips randomly.

That has been used successfully. I've mentioned in the past a guy that injects directly onto the impeller hub. When the liquid hits the rapidly spinning impeller shaft it is instantly atomized.

NACA also did some experiments along these lines developing a drilled compressor hub that channeled the ADI fluid directly into the impeller it self.

(see NACA Memorandum Report E6C25 May 1946 --- "Hydraulic Characteristics of the NACA Injection Impeller" & NACA Memorandum Report E4L23a "Effect of the NACA Injection Impeller on the Mixture Distribution of the Wright R-3350 Engine" Available as NACA TN 1069 1946, also Report 821 "Effect of NACA Injection Impeller on Mixture Distribution of Double-Row Radial Aircraft Engine)

Unfortunately these sort of investigations ground to a halt when the transition to turbojet engines began in the late 40's early 1950's

Larry

Richard L

25-03-2005, 12:01 AM

"Drilled compressor hub", what a good idea.

If the compressor wheel is anodised or nickel plated, it will resist any corrosion.

masterp2

26-03-2005, 05:21 PM

I would like to reply to the pre-comp dilemna. You are experiencing exactly what everyone before you experienced. Impingement kills blades. A 50 micron droplet appears to be able to cause impingement. The mass of the drop hitting the blade is too large=erosion. Controlling the particle size is the answer, and I have some ideas on that. Our biggest problem is the practical limit to available pressure.

Maximize:
1. Pressure,

2. number of 'smaller" nozzles, with smaller spray patterns,
temp of fluid,

3. travel distance to the turbo, (debatable)

Minimize:

1. Viscosity, (a 50/50 mix is more viscous than water or meth alone)

2. Base nozzle choice on the SMA (sauder mean average particle diameter) of the nozzle. Get the smallest rated SMA possible. Generally, smaller nozzles have lower SMA

3. mounting nozzles on a conduit wall-big mistake, mount so as to flow out concentric to the conduit.

One way to keep any pooled water from getting to the turbo is to run the mist "uphill". Pooled water will be heavy, and will run down, just give it a place to collect.

Do not use a method of metering fluid that places a reduced duty cycle on the pump, use only the max pump pressure, higher pressure=lower SMA. One shurflo pump can deliver over 150 psi easily into smaller nozzles (flow)

Just some thoughts on how it "should" be done, to stir discussion. Pre comp injection should not be based on the same techniques used for post IC injection, different fruits. i believe it is a good idea, where extreme moderation techniques should be employed.

mrex180

05-05-2005, 01:12 PM

3. mounting nozzles on a conduit wall-big mistake, mount so as to flow out concentric to the conduit.

.

When you say this you mean to place the jet in the middle of the pipe correct? Going back to post comp injection, if i was to replace my intercooler with a correctly sized pipe from the turbo to the intake manifold and i placed a jet or jets which way would you face it or them? into the oncoming air stream or having face going away with it???..

masterp2

05-05-2005, 03:34 PM

To answer this, a concept should be explained. A water droplet has a strong affinity to combine with another to form a larger drop. It is seen when you put 2 drops on wax paper, sufficiently close, they will pull together. Surface tension, a science term, is what is doing this. Some covalent bond on the molecular or something...

The problem with a conduit is that it provides an environment ripe for collisions, so as to be counter to what we are trying to achieve. What we are trying to achieve is lowest particle size=maximum surface area of water. The surest way to do this is to spray a lot of water onto a solid surface, like a wall mounted nozzle spraying 90 degrees to air flow. There is a film clip I found that shows just how inneffective this is for evaporation, but very effective for recombining atomized liquid.

There are those that feel that the major cause of blade damage is from large recombined amounts of liquid streaming into the blade. Although government research has shown impingement damage from extensive use in power generating applications using small micron misting, but it must be acknowledged that these applications use injection 100% of operation, with turbines spinning 24 hours a day. We would employ it for less than 1% in a street application, only to enhance top end power and cooling. So long as siphoning is eliminated as a source of potential injury, a good injection method should show no measurable damage over the life of a vehicle. My opinion. That leaves how I would define a good method, your question. Approaching it with these things in mind, if I wanted significant evap cooling prior to the blades, I would line up an infinite number of infinitely small nozzles, spraying into the airstream. All the nozzles would be located in the center of the conduit, yes. Now back to reality, this is not practical, and further, if evaporation prior to the blades is not a goal, then more simple. Spray right onto the blades, with the airstream. There is no chance for water to recombine.

You might consider a combination of techniques. A small nozzle spraying directly into the turbo, and back-to-back nozzles on a T, spraying from the center, located as far upstream as possible. Utilize at least 100 psi, and an effective fogging type nozzle, should get mean particle size down to 50 micron.

If you can get ahold of 500-800 psi, you can have real fog of the 20 micron variety, which will damage nothing. But you have to use nozzles designed for that purpose. Most stuff on the w/i circuit is low pressure, and avg spherical sizes are well over 100 micron in reality.

masterp2

05-05-2005, 03:38 PM

as for removing an IC, not usually a good idea. You could use the same techniques. I personally think the back-to-back T nozzle arrangement is a practical arrangement that would work very well. Use nozzles that have a spray pattern of 90 degrees or less, to try to keep as much of the spray off the wall as possible.

mrex180

21-12-2005, 01:23 PM

After a lot of time and thinking and asking questions im going to remove the intercooler and go full WI as my only source of cooling, i have just ordered the right parts from an aquamist supplier to upgrade my 2C to a 2D with a few more bits and pieces as well and sometime soon i'll get the pipework made.

I figure my cars just a pure daily driver as i don't do track work, i only go to drags maybe once or twice a year if i get the time and i don't give it hell when i drive it only the odd burst here and there, and with the turbo i got which is a TD05H/20G running 18psi which is easy for it and it shouldn't be scortching the air to badly so i can remove stock restrictive intercooler and let the turbo flow/move more air and maybe get rid of some exhaust back pressure at the same time and hopefully WI should keep temps under control and the motor det free. :wink:

Andy

PuntoRex

23-12-2005, 03:15 AM

You are brave, man!

Good luck to you & I'm really looking forward to see your good result.
Keep updating, please.

mrex180

23-12-2005, 11:55 AM

:lol: I have faith in Aquamist products i have had the 2C on my car for about 2 years now and not one single issue but this will put it to the test and yes for sure i will update soon as the mods are done and i do some of my own logging and then the final ecu tune.. :D

Andy

mrex180

31-01-2006, 10:58 AM

Update: Piping is made just have to wait for delivery which be in 2 days time, 2c is now upgraded to a 2D and i will be running 2 * 0.5mm jets.. still have to buy a knocklink though before a full power tune is even considered and i'll keep the boost low around 1 bar...

bwhinnen

01-02-2006, 06:47 AM

Is Kel doing the tune Andy?

mrex180

01-02-2006, 08:23 AM

Yeah Brett he will be, not sure exactly when yet as i have a few more things i have to get sorted.

mrex180

03-02-2006, 01:18 PM

Some pics of the piping and with it fitted which is all stainless and with the 2 jets in place which are not quite where i wanted them though but it will do, and piping is about as short as it gets. Everythings bit rough but i will tidy it up :oops:

HERE (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1024)

Donkeypunch

05-02-2006, 02:19 PM

Subscribe...

I am very interested in this. On a 20g the response should be a lot better with out that huge void to fill. If this works, without knock, or blowing up your engine. I may consider this. I am running a VF22 right now. This is cool though. Good luck, and hope it works. What size nozzles you using? And pump pressure?

mrex180

06-02-2006, 07:04 AM

Thanks, so far with out tuning and running low boost 13-14psi the actual response isn't any better down low and through the midrange than before, it's only when the tacho goes past 5k that i can notice the real difference and the restriction that the stock IC presented is gone it really shifts through the revs quickly.I'm running 2 x 0.5mm jets , i'm unsure of the pressure, the pressure switch is left set at what ever came from the factory with 2c Kit but i will try and get it set to max pump pressure.. Can't wait to get the Knocklink and couple of other little things sorted and get 19psi flowing. :twisted: i can also here the boxer rumble coming through the induction side too sounds wierd.. And i can't really get a good temp measurement as the stainless piping is holding the engine bay heat so looks like i'll have to get a AIT sensor & gauge.

Andy

mrex180

06-02-2006, 01:38 PM

JohnA

07-02-2006, 05:39 PM

Very interesting :cool:

Can you tell us at what boost level your precomp injection was activated?
Was it pure water?
How many litres of water did you go through (roughly!) to get to this stage of tip erosion?

PS
I'll use these pics on my website if you don't mind, there is precious little on precomp injection out there anyway...

mrex180

08-02-2006, 12:57 AM

I had it it activated on about 10psi, as it was a fair while ago when this hapened and i had it only on for about 3 weeks and it would have only gone through 2 Liters at the most and the mix would have been rain water and Isopropyl alcohol.No probs with the pics :wink

JohnA

08-02-2006, 10:28 AM

I had it it activated on about 10psi,

10psi is a bit low for the usual nozzle placement (facing the airstream at 90degrees)
I wouldn't let it activate before 1 bar.
OK, boost pressure is on the other side of the intake, but it is an indication of the sort of airflow passing in front of the nozzle.
.No probs with the pics :wink
thanks

Richard L

08-02-2006, 07:11 PM

This is close up pics of the VF24 Compressor wheel when i had it set up injecting pre-turbo awhile ago too.

http://www.geocities.com/kombiez/yahoo8.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/kombiez/yahoo9.JPG

Andy

How far is the nozzle away from the compressor wheels? I wonder if things could improve if the nozzle is closer to the wheel.

mrex180

09-02-2006, 11:57 AM

The jet was placed approx 360mm from the turbo in the silicon intake pipe which is a spare port that normally would be blocked off.

http://www.geocities.com/kombiez/Intake2.JPG
http://www.geocities.com/kombiez/Intake1.JPG

mrex180

19-03-2006, 10:53 AM

UPDATE: 19/03/06

Installed the Knocklink today and set it at max sensitivity and when for a drive, what it displayed under WOT reading and the boost from the 20G just under 1 bar was no LED's up until 6000rpm, then about 6100 there was 2 greens then at 6500 both oranges then just under 7000 the big red (well a lot of reds and i backed off in a hurry then) .Car is still not tuned and i have removed the Bosch 910 pump and surge tank until i put the 044 pump in so the OEM pump at a guess is probably not up to the task with 660cc injectors and the added airflow up top now there's no restriction from IC anymore, just got to keep it under 6000 and be sensible until the pump is fitted and the car is tuned..

Andy

Richard L

19-03-2006, 02:57 PM

I was wondering if you can run your car up to 7000 with lower boost setting. The engine get noisy beyond 6000, the knock indication may not be purely knock but other noises. This will give a fairer results.

Richard

mrex180

19-03-2006, 11:29 PM

I'll try that Richard, i may even just run it too 7000 trying not to use any boost and see what it does and just see if it is just engine noise.

Richard L

20-03-2006, 12:39 AM

it will be interest to what is registered. You can tune the back ground noise out and hopefully only knock is indicated. I am not expecting you to tune all the noise out unless the engine is underload. Reducing the boost to wastergate pressure might is more realistic.

mrex180

20-03-2006, 02:24 AM

Not a bad idea i'll change the hoses around and check out what it does..

JohnA

20-03-2006, 09:30 AM

True, KnockLink is known for being unable to distinguish 'normal' engine noise from real knock at revs as high as that.

One way to 'calibrate' it is to do a run with race fuel and same boost/WI conditions and see what KnockLink shows. If it still lights up, then you know that it is NOT knock.

If it doesn't light up with race fuel then "oooops" :wink:

mrex180

20-03-2006, 11:30 AM

Ok i run the turbo on wategate pressure only which was 7psi from 3600 to about 5700 but it crept up to 10psi at 7000 (looks like the gate could use a bit of porting) and it was virtually the same a before with the knocklink, i then did another run trying not use any boost and i got 2 greens and 1 flickering orange up at 7000, Please tell me if i'm wrong here? thinking it's only background noise and i can't here it pinging i ended up taking 1/4 of a turn of sensitvity out of the knocklink, so it only started showing green leds at 6800 and 6900 oranges and red at 7000. I'll probably get my tuner to set it up properly on the dyno though when i get 18psi - 19 psi out of the turbo.Oh and the runs were all in 2nd and 3rd gear....

ANdy

JohnA

20-03-2006, 11:49 AM

I've found that KnockLink is very sensitive to the location of the sensor relative to the engine.
Also the coupling of the sensor can have a major effect on false alarms, just as the tightness of the bolt that keeps it in place.
Try using aluminum or copper washers, and alternative locations on the block or cyl head. You never know where the ideal spot will happen to be, it takes experimentation.

mrex180

20-03-2006, 01:00 PM

Thanks John, i just picked the old TMIC bracket hole on the left hand side of the block which is on the opposite side to the other knock sensor the car that ecu uses, i picked it as it seemed to have the most surface area that i could see as the other holes were rasied above the block a little and only half the sensor area would be in contact with the block.

mrex180

26-03-2006, 01:48 PM

Trying to get my head around this maybe someone can have a go at answering it ?now i know WI won't remove as much heat as my factory IC did with WI BUT because there is little restriction in the intake path now will the gain in flow and less exhaust back pressure still be benifical and i'll will i gain power and response ? or because of the added heat will the power drop off to below what i had before??

Tunings still a few weeks away yet and i'm curious as too which way things will go?

Andy

JohnA

26-03-2006, 02:05 PM

The effects of WI will depend on how close you are to detonation otherwise.

Cooling the intake is not what WI does best. It will do it to a degree if there is no intercooler (so the air temps will be very high) but most of the real work is done inside the cylinders, once the compression has started.
That's when the water droplets will become steam and absorb lots of heat in the process.

If you want to bring charge temps down to ambient (or close to that) then best is to use an intercooler. WI takes over later.

mrex180

26-03-2006, 02:19 PM

So John whats best to look at then EGT rather than IAT with WI?

Richard L

26-03-2006, 02:20 PM

I agree with John on this, water can evaporate as much as it is allowed within a closed environment. Once the relative humidity is reached, it will stop cooling.

It is a completely differently set of conditions when it enters the combustion chamber - water is 100% effective as a coolant.

Richard

JohnA

26-03-2006, 02:28 PM

mrex180

15-04-2006, 11:42 AM

How critical is the jet placement and distance from the combustion chambers for atomisation?? My jets werent placed where i wanted them so is it worth tapping the turbo comp cover and putting jet in the outlet?? this would move the 1st jet back another 200-250mm from it's current location, then i would move the 2nd jet to where the first was??? Any thoughts?

2nd jet is the one closest to the BOV outlet in this pic.

http://www.geocities.com/kombiez/yahoo7.JPG

Andy

JohnA

15-04-2006, 12:01 PM

Can anyone say for certain without special photography of the airstream/mist moving under realistic conditions?

My view is that the finer the mist, the easier it is for the water to follow the air during sharp turns.
In my car I'll soon have the WI nozzles facing straight at the compressor eyes. I don't think it gets better than that.

But even for post-intercooler injection I'd expect sharp 90 or 180 degree turns to be an invitation to de-atomisation.
Maybe not pooling - heck, at 1 bar boost the airflow will be quite violent- but certainly not uniform distribution among the cylinders.

Maybe a relevant analogy is the positioning of 'extra' fuel injectors in older turbo conversions of n/a engines. No matter how well the extra injector was positioned, some cylinders would consistently run richer than others. Can't be that different with water mist.

mrex180

16-04-2006, 12:32 AM

Thanks John, i agree how do you if you can't see it, one can only assume whats happening, even in that video of the cosworth motor with clear end on the intake manifold you can a fair % of water actually pooling on the glass and not going down the runners.. Whats your thoughts on a individual jet for each intake runner? besides the chance of one becoming blocked..And i like the idea of injecting straight into the compressor eye, are you going to put some info on your web site about the set up?

Andy

Richard L

16-04-2006, 01:01 AM

When the engine in on boost, you can almost guarantee all injected liquid will end up in the engine. If you are injecting a large volume of waterdue to lack of intercooler, I think you should consider port injection.

In-cylinder cooling is more important. Wi has great effect on the intake stroke, cooling down the inlet valve and hot cylinder wall after the exhaust stroke. Port injection will greatly improve volumetric efficiency of your engine. If you are concern with block jet, use a bigger jet but control your water flow with a PWM valve.

It is not essential to have atomised water with port injection. The latest Subaru WRC car (during development) uses straight jets. It uses a 0.3mm straight jet without atomisation, pointing directly at the inlet valves, result was good better than manifold injection.

mrex180

16-04-2006, 09:53 AM

Thanks Richard , thats interesting stuff :D alot of what i've read about port injection has been not so supportive, like what if a jet blocks or it more a track or strip thing not for street use, not enough time for water to atomise.

Andy

Richard L

16-04-2006, 11:12 AM

I wouldn't pay too much attention on what other people said, not many have actually tried it in practice.

I suggest using port injection with manifold injection at the same time, until you get comfortable with it, you can decide. The effectiveness of temperature reduction by manifold injection is subject to how much water vapour the air can absorb at a given temperture and pressure. The humidity of the uncooled air has also effect of the degree of cooling.

Inlet tract cooling is only a small part of overall cooling process by water, journey after the intake valve is equally important but topic is rarely discussed - there were some discussion on this section earlier. Due to difficulties in measuring the temperature after the inlet valve, the discussion was not very detailed due of lack of evidence.

I don't have proof either but I have witnessed the effectiveness during many mapping sessions on rally cars, the onset knock event is more even amongst the cylinders compared to manifold injection. Knock events seemed to be more evident on one or two individual cylinders, I think this is due to uneven water distribution rather than hot spots or poor cyliderhead water jacket design.

You can acutally detect blocked port jet by using two flow sensors, just compare the signals between two branches. We can supply an internal filter for all jet sizes but only put them on the 0.3mm jets. The internal filter surface area is very small so it will defeat the object of preventing clogging when large flow nozzles tends to collect more debris in comparison.

I can supply you with sintered filters to be put into bigger jets but ensure the flow is PWM controlled so flow is limited.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/press/jet-s.jpg

Richard

mrex180

16-04-2006, 12:02 PM

Thanks Richard great info :D How many jets can the race pump supply? as there would be 4 x 0.3's jets (1 for each cylinder naturally) then what could you use for manifold injection? And just for curiosity with port injection do the jets still face 90' to the oncoming flow or aimed straight down the port?

Andy

Richard L

16-04-2006, 01:51 PM

In order to make your set up simplier, just injection atomised water for the time being.

You can increase the flow of the aquamist by adding a samll priming pump. Do you have the 1s or the 2d?

Here is a link how to add the priming pump:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=127

mrex180

16-04-2006, 10:17 PM

My system was originally a 2C then i added the FIA2 so i think it's virtually a 2D correct?? I have a spare washer pump left over which was my intercooler waterspray so i would just have to re-config the wiring..

Andy

mrex180

06-05-2006, 10:14 AM

So John whats best to look at then EGT rather than IAT with WI?

Neither :wink:
Knock would be my main consideration

EGTs are affected precious little by W.I. (strange but true!)
IATs are affected only a tiny bit - depends mainly on the location of the nozzle, post-ic temps and methanol content

Emergence of knock's ugly head is what WI is meant to fight best.

On the subject of knock, i been having a few issues with my boost control solenoid virtully since i took the intercooler off and the car has only been running 12-15 psi when it should run 18psi, i havent worried about it until the new 3-port boost solenoid arrives(which is sometime away) and a re-tune . But today i put on my old manual bleed valve in a set the boost to 17psi and the once the revs got around 4500 WOT full Boost the knocklink would light up like a christmas tree but i backed out of it before i got the red light up, this is scary stuff :shock: :shock: so either my WI isn't working or bad fuel or i just can't run anywhere near the same tune as before with the intercooler??

Andy C

Richard L

06-05-2006, 01:56 PM

Do you have any means of monitoring water flow? an inline pressure gauge may work quite well.

mrex180

06-05-2006, 03:33 PM

No richard not really , not until you get my DDS3 to me :razz: but since i run 2 jets i have just used one of the lines and got a spare jet and poked it out from under the bonnet and i will take it for a drive tommorrow and see what happens.

simple

07-05-2006, 04:54 AM

mrex180 where abouts are you? I am Brisbane.
Not many ozzy's here!
:smile:

mrex180

07-05-2006, 05:26 AM

Not far too far away actually im out near Toowoomba.. :D

mrex180

07-05-2006, 05:34 AM

Richard you have a PM...

mrex180

19-06-2006, 02:58 AM

I have now set my system to run Port injection running 1 x 0.3mm jet in each intake runner.. Pics (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=7178&sid=9218836f3b736872492f849fb8b5e304)

mrex180

25-06-2006, 12:31 PM

simple

25-06-2006, 10:56 PM

slostar

26-06-2006, 08:34 AM

Ok car was just run at the Strip and............. it run pretty ordinary well it was launching really good and the 60fts were in the low 1.8's and leaving rival cars doing catch up but half track onwards it wasn't producing the power and other cars( mainly 1's running low 12's) would pull about 4-5 lengths on me by the end and the best it run was 13.3 @ 98 mph i got better running a smaller turbo and the intercooler... So my experment is over :cry: the intercooler will be going back on and upgraded later but i won't touch the WI the knock resistance is incredible running port injection..

how much more timming and/or boost, (if any)were you able to run with the port injection ? over none or normal water injection?

Richard L

26-06-2006, 09:25 AM

I was wondering if you were running water/methanol?

Water can only cool up to a point when air is fully saturated at a gievn temperture and wetness. Adding methanol will aid the cooling capacity in the same operating range.

Water is better employed for in-cylinder cooling. I suggest tryng (if you not done it already) by adding methanol and make the same run and see if you can improve your track time, before reverting back to intercooler + port injection.

Richard

mrex180

26-06-2006, 09:39 AM

This was I good test and usefull info! WI been known to do it's best by det. supression not by intercooling. So, some intercooling takes place, but it is limited to ambient condition and set up specs.

Agreed :wink: Too me the car was performing like it had a heat soaked TMIC would on a hot day... So it was doing it's job but no where near effective enough.. I was running 75/25 water to iso mix...

mrex180

26-06-2006, 09:53 AM

mrex180

14-07-2006, 02:40 PM

Been doing myself some logging and seeing what the differences are : the 2 screen shots below(sorry they are hard to see) which form one complete page are of 2 logs one overlayed one top of the other, the red trace is WI activated and the green trace is no WI. The runs were done rolling in 2nd gear at 40kph then start logging and flooring it.

I havent had a tune yet but to me it appears the motor is being bogged down but not enough to keep the car accelerating at the same speed which is interesting.. Also i run a piggy back ECU so the ignition and boost values won't be truly correct as i'm only pulling data from the stock ecu. Oh and the car is running the intercooler again..

http://www.geocities.com/kombiez/graph.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/kombiez/graphpt2.JPG