Dodge SRT-4, HOM toys option, and WI injector placement

[turbojack]

Hi everybody. I have been reading diff threads/posts on this forum for awhile but have never posted. I have been enjoying but not participating, this has changed since I think I have the components I need to start my project. I just need some educated advice and helpful comments that may be particular to my car, hence the post here.

I have a 04 Dodge SRT-4, the major things done to the car that are for engine performance are: Stage II with toys, a piggy back controller (SMT-6 based), upgraded exhaust and a Zeitronix wideband for double checking A/F ratios and EGT temp (EGT probe not hooked up yet).

With regards to the factory stage II upgrade with the toys option:
The toys option has a HOM switch (HOM =High Octane Mode) for running race gas. My best understanding of what this switch does, is allow increased timing when using race gas (higher knock threshold). However if the PCM sees knock that it thinks should not be there when HOM has been switched on, it overrides the switch and reverts back to non HOM mode (thinks that you do not have race gas in the tank and switches to back to base map), this is for the safety of the engine.

From what I?ve reading (correctly or incorrectly), WI if installed, setup correctly, and properly tuned may allow the use of the HOM switch without using race gas. Besides some of the other benefits of WI this is my main goal of using WI on this car.....if it can be done.

I have had the piggy back controller for awhile now and have always intended to use the piggy back and WI together. Right now the Piggy back is setup/tuned to make more power, keeping the A/F around 11.0 - 11.5 (no higher till EGT probe hooked up). Without the piggy back the factory tune was dumping fuel (around 9.00 -10.5 under full boost). Also, at this time the piggyback I?m using can not be used to advance timing only retard (see web link).

I recently purchased an Aquamist 2C system as the basis of my WI system. I was intending to install the Aquamist jet and HSV post intercooler but before throttle body in order to reach or meet my goal of using the HOM switch without buying race gas. However, If the car has a piggyback controller that can control a HSV (see web link), should I be looking more closely at injecting into the intake manifold (port injection)? What setup or placement of injector(s) do you think will help most in simulating race gas? If it applies, what WI mixture do you think will be needed for this? With regards to fluids, keep in mind the idea is a low cost replacement to race gas, I would like to keep things simple once setup, and not have to spend time on a weekly or monthly basis sourcing anything exotic or expensive (distilled water=less than $.99 per gallon).

Here?s a link to the piggyback I?m using from PSI-FI motor sports
http://www.psifimotorsports.com/ECU.htm

Here?s a link to a description of the stage II with toys from Mopar
http://www.mopar.com/srt_stage_2.htm

Here?s a link to the Zeitronix wideband
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

Hers a link to my Exhaust upgrade from MaxFab and Mopar
http://www.maxxfab.com/welcome1.html1.html


If anybody has some comments or needs additional info or just wants to talk about what I?m proposing to do with WI on this car, please feel free to post.

Thanks
Jack

[Richard L]

Jack,

Thanks for submitting your SRT for the discussion - hope it will bear fruit as more people may chime in and offer solution to get over some of ways to over come the rich a/f ratio being programmed at HOM. Does the HOM also runs rich?

The piggyback is one solution - not sure how it works to trim fuel etc. The most common method is to trim the MAF, TPS or MAP sensors. They will all have other side effects at WOT, since the ECU is not going to see full WOT voltage etc. Please outline your thoughts and how WI can replace the 10:1 afr.

[Richard L]

I have read the Psi controller and assume the following:

1) You are trimming the fuel by modifing the load sensor
2) You will be creating a map for the WI to drive the 2C.
3) HOM will altomatically advance the ignition and boost on the stageII.
4) You are already running bigger injectors on stage II upgrade? (part of the kit)

I think your set up will work well with the 2c. I do have a question. Is the "map switch" on the Psi switchable on the fly if water injection is interrupted?

[turbojack]

"Does the HOM also runs rich?"

Yes but it?s been awhile since I?ve used it (weather and road conditions not conducive to racing or high boost runs) and I do not remember the values displayed on the wideband controller when I was using it, sorry.

?The piggyback is one solution - not sure how it works to trim fuel etc. The most common method is to trim the MAF, TPS or MAP sensors. They will all have other side effects at WOT, since the ECU is not going to see full WOT voltage etc.?

The Piggy back that I?m using is just that, a piggy back it does not replace the PCM it alters some of the sensor signals being sent or read by the PCM. The web site I linked to doesn?t go into details on what it does exactly to ?trim fuel?. If I?m not mistaken it alters the MAP signal. But it does this ?map clamping? in 3D (RPM, LOAD, TPS) versus a specific voltage clamp at high boost levels.


"Please outline your thoughts and how WI can replace the 10:1 afr."

The factory is dumping excess fuel to keep combustion temps low, which helps with engine life or limits them (DCX) to being vulnerable to warranty claims due to engine damage. By taking away some of the excess fuel using the Power Paq my power goes up but so does the risk of doing damage (if I go too far). If I can replace some of the excess fuel with WI, and introduce it in the right amounts, at the right time, I think I can keep the power I have tuned into the system already and keep the intended safety net that the factory had tuned for but did by dumping fuel. IMO I should be able to tune more aggressively, by reducing fuel dumping even more (but using my head and not getting too greedy) by further tuning the map in the PowerPaq with a wideband and EGT readings.

With race gas and the HOM switch enabled the car does make more power (proven to me by seat of the pants feel, others have been to the dyno and have seen the effects in black and white). I hope to be able to use the effects of WI to reduce the knock threshold, again by introducing it in way to reduce knock. The factory PCM is looking to see higher expected knock values when HOM activated. If it does, it allows more timing (significant to making more power). If not it overrides the switch and reverts to the non HOM settings. If I can get the system setup and tuned properly I think I can get the car to run with a higher knock value as if race gas is being used. This will allow me to run the car with the HOM switch activated at will and without using expensive race gas.

Right now this may sound like I want to do two separate things with the WI, but I think it?s doable if I do it right and knowledgeable people help/guide me. At worst I think I can keep the current Power Paq map, and just attack the HOM problem without fear of doing damage since my Power Paq tune, IMO is conservative.

?1) You are trimming the fuel by modifying the load sensor?

See above, if still not clear I can send user manual

?2) You will be creating a map for the WI to drive the 2C.?

Yes, I will be using the Power Paq to drive the 2C HSV. I will have a map specifically for my default tune but with WI. This way if have WI problem I can revert back for safety.

?3) HOM will automatically advance the ignition and boost on the stage II.?

See above, I think it?s better said that, it will allow more timing if it sees expected increased knock threshold values. I don?t think the HOM switch activation effects boost control. However the PCM in stage II has been calibrated for increased boost when WOT.

?4) You are already running bigger injectors on stage II upgrade? (part of the kit)?

Yes the injectors are larger and I think the factory sizing was in anticipation of the next stage as well (stage III), since I have stage II w/the toys option, the stage III upgrade for me from Mopar would not include larger injectors.

?I think your set up will work well with the 2c. I do have a question. Is the "map switch" on the Psi switchable on the fly if water injection is interrupted??

Example to switch from map A to map B: you have to shut off, then have key on and then toggle the map switch from map A to map B. So no, you can not switch between maps on the fly or have the maps controlled/loaded by something like a low fluid signal or clogged injector warning.

F.Y.I. I'm going to let some other SRT-4 users (also WI enthusiast?s) know about this thread so as to check my statements for accuracy. And maybe join in with comments.

[Richard L]

I took sometime to digest the information.

I can see that you have a few options to incorporate WI with certain degree of safety.

Option1:
System2c with a DDS2/3 flow sensor - as soon as water flow is detect, you should be able to use the output to switch a relay to enable the HOM switch (y ou may need to find out which wire from the HOM unit tell the ECU to switch MAP)

Option2:
System2c with a DDS3 flow sensor - as soon as water flow is detect, you should be able to use the output to switch a relay to connect the factory boost solenoid to work. If water is not redected within a set time by the DDS3 undwer boost conditions, the wastegate will remind at default boost.

Option3:
Upgrade the 2c to 2d and use the "fault output" to de/select the above options when "water fault" is detected.

If you pick a preferred option, I will make a wiring diagram for you.

[turbojack]

I like option 1, looks and sounds simple but effective. HOM has two wires one is ground the other to the PCM (ECU). Also like the DDS3 but it's not ready yet, is it?

Also what do you think about injector placement? From what I understand, I want to mount it after the IC but before the thottlebody. What?s your opinion with this considering the WI to make the HOM option work without race gas? Should I look into placing 4 injectors into the intake manifold? Should I inject closer to the throttlebody, or closer to the exit side of the IC? Should I run a mix of methanol and water or just water?

A little off topic:
I mounted an RCI 1 Gal jr dragster fuel cell to a strut bar in my trunk for water supply. Should I mount the pump here (can easily mount it to the fuel cell bracket I made). Or should I mount the pump and other Aquamist components under the hood someplace, not much room under the hood with the factory air box? Also do I need or should I get an accumulator for my setup?

You would do a wiring diagram for me?I would like that?it would be of great help I?m sure, and I appreciate it?thanks very much for your help and feedback.

[Richard L]

I am aware of your post but I am a bit tied up an dwill post the drawing a text very soon.

[Richard L]

I am aware of your post but I am a bit tied up an dwill post the drawing a text very soon.

Here is the first attempt to link all the parts together. Ideally, the presence of water will trigger the HOM switch to tell the ECU to start the high octane map.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/2C-DDS3-PSI.gif

[Nolimits]

That is def a great diagram for us Richard, thanks for taking your time to write that. You even included the Turbo Toys!!! Nice! (You probably have alot of inside knowledge about it from working with MOPAR ;) )

[turbojack]

Thanks much for the work Richard.

I'm in NJ, any suppliers in the states have the DDS3 yet, big Mopar meet 14th of May, would like to have this and get it installed - tuned before then? Also would like to get the new injectors and adapters, more hose/line, fittings etc...

Again thanks for this, I'm dying to try it.

[Richard L]

Thanks much for the work Richard.

I'm in NJ, any suppliers in the states have the DDS3 yet, big Mopar meet 14th of May, would like to have this and get it installed - tuned before then? Also would like to get the new injectors and adapters, more hose/line, fittings etc...

Again thanks for this, I'm dying to try it.

We have only a few allocated for our dealers since they are the first to try it out. Please email me on richard@aquamist.co.uk and I will try to get you one ASAP if you don't mind paying the transatlantic shipping cost. I think it is about 65 dollars by FedEx.

[ctischmick]

ok.. so I too am trying this HOM mode without high octane fuel...
My mods are about the same as Turbojack's with the exception that I have a voltage based MAP clamp.. (tricks the ECU into thinking less boost)

When reading the paper posted on this website, this line caught my attention:

When adding 5%-7% water to fuel without leaning rich fueling levels - a degree or two of advance will produce almost the same power result as without water injection (leaning slightly will increase the power output). This is good for people who have engines tuned for high octane or race fuel but on a daily basis want to use lower octane grades. This is purely an economic use of water injection - power use requires fuel and timing tuning.

So would it be correct to say that running 5-7% would actually be better for our purposes... instead of running 10-15%?
Assuming we got ourselves to a 11-12 AFR... then turned on W/I at 5-7% and not retuning at all?

Thanks for your input.

[Richard L]

ok.. so I too am trying this HOM mode without high octane fuel...
My mods are about the same as Turbojack's with the exception that I have a voltage based MAP clamp.. (tricks the ECU into thinking less boost)

When reading the paper posted on this website, this line caught my attention:

When adding 5%-7% water to fuel without leaning rich fueling levels - a degree or two of advance will produce almost the same power result as without water injection (leaning slightly will increase the power output). This is good for people who have engines tuned for high octane or race fuel but on a daily basis want to use lower octane grades. This is purely an economic use of water injection - power use requires fuel and timing tuning.

So would it be correct to say that running 5-7% would actually be better for our purposes... instead of running 10-15%?
Assuming we got ourselves to a 11-12 AFR... then turned on W/I at 5-7% and not retuning at all?

Thanks for your input.

I would like to point out that the 5-7% w/f ratio will only replace the cooling effect of dumping fuel between 12.5 to 10.5. It is not meant to replace the effect of race fuel overall.

If you see any post that put the give people the impression that 5-7% w/f of water will replace the vast octane gap between 89 to 116 numbers, please correct it for us - it is not true.

Water can be added to the bridge the gap between pump fuel and race fuel but the exact amount is not fixed, given that you can injection between 5% to 25% of water to fuel, you need to take one step at a time. Each and every engine set up is different but you can be sure that water will be able to yield positive results if you have the patience to follow it through.

Using race race is not the "end all" solution for power. Race fuel has higher resistance to knock but other aspect is not often discussed.

Having achieved MBT timing and High boost - essential for power, but in-cylinder temperature is often ignored. Higher power means more heat is available to heat up the pistons. Unless you run a wide piston/bore gap (reserved for race engine), when piston/bore clearance is reduced, friction will increase drastically lead to high temperature region around the edge of the piston where it suffers the most high temperature and pressure stress - end flame region. Even if you run race fuel, water is still an asset.

So when you dial in the HOM, baby step down your water flow until you have achieved the perfect match with the HOM map fixed by the Dodge engineers. It would help if we know what that strategy is - I doubt if they will publish it.

[ctischmick]

ok.. so I too am trying this HOM mode without high octane fuel...
My mods are about the same as Turbojack's with the exception that I have a voltage based MAP clamp.. (tricks the ECU into thinking less boost)

When reading the paper posted on this website, this line caught my attention:

When adding 5%-7% water to fuel without leaning rich fueling levels - a degree or two of advance will produce almost the same power result as without water injection (leaning slightly will increase the power output). This is good for people who have engines tuned for high octane or race fuel but on a daily basis want to use lower octane grades. This is purely an economic use of water injection - power use requires fuel and timing tuning.

So would it be correct to say that running 5-7% would actually be better for our purposes... instead of running 10-15%?
Assuming we got ourselves to a 11-12 AFR... then turned on W/I at 5-7% and not retuning at all?

Thanks for your input.

I would like to point out that the 5-7% w/f ratio will only replace the cooling effect of dumping fuel between 12.5 to 10.5. It is not meant to replace the effect of race fuel overall.

If you see any post that put the give people the impression that 5-7% w/f of water will replace the vast octane gap between 89 to 116 numbers, please correct it for us - it is not true.

Water can be added to the bridge the gap between pump fuel and race fuel but the exact amount is not fixed, given that you can injection between 5% to 25% of water to fuel, you need to take one step at a time. Each and every engine set up is different but you can be sure that water will be able to yield positive results if you have the patience to follow it through.

Using race race is not the "end all" solution for power. Race fuel has higher resistance to knock but other aspect is not often discussed.

Having achieved MBT timing and High boost - essential for power, but in-cylinder temperature is often ignored. Higher power means more heat is available to heat up the pistons. Unless you run a wide piston/bore gap (reserved for race engine), when piston/bore clearance is reduced, friction will increase drastically lead to high temperature region around the edge of the piston where it suffers the most high temperature and pressure stress - end flame region. Even if you run race fuel, water is still an asset.

So when you dial in the HOM, baby step down your water flow until you have achieved the perfect match with the HOM map fixed by the Dodge engineers. It would help if we know what that strategy is - I doubt if they will publish it.

I was trying to find out how to calculate GPH to cc/min and found this site...
http://www.azmoon-m.com/other/conv_table.asp

based off my calculation to get 10% water to fuel... with stage 2...
Stage 2 has 682cc/min injectors.. so thats 2728cc/min of fuel at WOT..
so 10% means I need 272.8 cc/min of water ...
272.8/62.89=4.3 GPH
so the injector I would need for my system is 4.3 GPH...


I'm going to start with a 3.0 GPH, and step up the PSI a little bit..

am I correct in saying that a smaller injector, say rated 3.0 GPH @ 60PSI, will atomize the water better when its running 3.9 GPH @ 100psi?

Also could you double check my math?

[ctischmick]

So when you dial in the HOM, baby step down your water flow until you have achieved the perfect match with the HOM map fixed by the Dodge engineers. It would help if we know what that strategy is - I doubt if they will publish it.

From Stage 2 Website by Mopar:

Fill the tank with 100 (R+M)/2 octane unleaded fuel, press the red switch located on the Turbo Toys bezel, and discover instant torque and power gains. The PCM will increase spark advance and adjust fueling to take full advantage of the 100 octane unleaded fuel. The red indicator lamp will illuminate when High Octane Mode is active.

During High Octane Mode operation, the PCM prevents damaging detonation via the OEM knock detection system. High Octane Mode will be bypassed if damaging knock is detected. The red indicator lamp will blink when High Octane Mode is bypassed. Spark advance and fueling are returned to standard levels in bypass mode. The blinking indicator light can be turned off by pressing the red High Octane Mode switch. Entering bypass mode is an indication that higher octane fuel is required.

NOTE: It is recommended that the level of premium fuel be as low as possible when adding high octane fuel. The tank level should be reduced until the low fuel indicator is blinking and filled completely with 100 (R+M)/2 octane unleaded fuel before the High Octane Mode is engaged. The use of leaded fuels will cause damage to the vehicle?s catalytic converter and oxygen sensors.

[Richard L]

So when you dial in the HOM, baby step down your water flow until you have achieved the perfect match with the HOM map fixed by the Dodge engineers. It would help if we know what that strategy is - I doubt if they will publish it.

I was trying to find out how to calculate GPH to cc/min and found this site...
http://www.azmoon-m.com/other/conv_table.asp

based off my calculation to get 10% water to fuel... with stage 2...
Stage 2 has 682cc/min injectors.. so thats 2728cc/min of fuel at WOT..
so 10% means I need 272.8 cc/min of water ...
272.8/62.89=4.3 GPH
so the injector I would need for my system is 4.3 GPH...


I'm going to start with a 3.0 GPH, and step up the PSI a little bit..

am I correct in saying that a smaller injector, say rated 3.0 GPH @ 60PSI, will atomize the water better when its running 3.9 GPH @ 100psi?

Also could you double check my math?


Your calculation is accurate according to the table. But please do test the flow by injecting water into a measuring glass.

[Richard L]

From Stage 2 Website by Mopar:

Fill the tank with 100 (R+M)/2 octane unleaded fuel, press the red switch located on the Turbo Toys bezel, and discover instant torque and power gains. The PCM will increase spark advance and adjust fueling to take full advantage of the 100 octane unleaded fuel. The red indicator lamp will illuminate when High Octane Mode is active.

During High Octane Mode operation, the PCM prevents damaging detonation via the OEM knock detection system. High Octane Mode will be bypassed if damaging knock is detected. The red indicator lamp will blink when High Octane Mode is bypassed. Spark advance and fueling are returned to standard levels in bypass mode. The blinking indicator light can be turned off by pressing the red High Octane Mode switch. Entering bypass mode is an indication that higher octane fuel is required.

NOTE: It is recommended that the level of premium fuel be as low as possible when adding high octane fuel. The tank level should be reduced until the low fuel indicator is blinking and filled completely with 100 (R+M)/2 octane unleaded fuel before the High Octane Mode is engaged. The use of leaded fuels will cause damage to the vehicle?s catalytic converter and oxygen sensors.

I am trying to think of a way to tap into the "panel" so that we know the HOM is activated. May be the red led is a good indication to give a "do ahead" signal for the water injection to activate to replace race-fuel.

Ideally if water fault is detected, we have a means of cancelling the HOM mode. Alternatively let the panel to do it automatically when knock is detected..

[turbojack]

Richard I have some questions about placement and hookup of a pulse extender that was made for me

The water supply is coming from a fuel cell that is mounted in the trunk (priming pump is mounted to the fuel cell mounting bracket). The pulse extender that was made for me is is in a hobby box along with the needed 12V 10-20A relay.

After looking at the diagram posted in the "Double The Flow Rate of your Aquamist Pump" thread and looking at pages 6 & 7 "DDS3 - Generic Connection Diagram" of the DDS3 manual.

from DDS3 manual page 6:
on the junction box pin 21 is priming pump power
on the junction box pin 22 is priming pump ground

Can I mount the pulse extender w/relay in the the trunk next to the priming pump and do I, using the red wire from pin #21 solder into red wire relay power for the pulse extender? Do I, solder the black wire from pin #22 to the black wire on the priming pump (ground)? This sounds correct to me just need for you to confirm.

Do I run grey and black wires from the pulse extender (H1 & H2) in the trunk to the 806-201 water pressure switch which is under the hood near the Aquamist pump?

So as to avoid any confusion I have supplied additional info with what I have:

The priming pump that I have is an Anco generic washer pump (kit number 65-01, P/N on pump 99600), this has two wires:
1) red = power
2) black = ground

The pulse extender and the relay are together in a hobby box (your schematic was used when making it). The wires exiting from the box are:

1) Black - labled H2 (water pressure switch?)

2) Grey - labled H1 (water pressure switch?)

3) Red - labled power (to pin #21 on DDS3 junction box?)

4) Yellow - pump (to red wire at washer pump?)

From what I can tell after writing this I think I'm correct with above. If I'm not correct or if you see an error (maybe typo) please correct me.

Thanks
Jack

[Richard L]

turbojack wrote:

The pulse extender and the relay are together in a hobby box (your schematic was used when making it). The wires exiting from the box are:

1) Black - labled H2 (water pressure switch?)
2) Grey - labled H1 (water pressure switch?)
3) Red - labled power (to pin #21 on DDS3 junction box?)
4) Yellow - pump (to red wire at washer pump?)

Since the pulse extender is made for you by someone, could you ask the person to post the circuit with "wire out" colour so that I can check. I know some colours are pretty obvious, but I would like to be 100% sure before saying "YES"

[turbojack]

I have forwarded the request for him to come here and post. He and I are suposed to talk tomorrow, maybe he has time before then to answer your question.

Thanks,
Jack

[Richard L]

I think I can quite confident that you can wire the set up as you mentioned - except for the red and black wire for the following reason.

The #21 and #22 from the DDS3 juction box is only limited to 1A of current. In case your priming pump is drawing more than 1A, it will affect the DDS3's power supplying stability to the rest of the components and devices.

Please wire the Red to a healthy switched +12V with a wire gauge about 12-14awg (also place a 5A inline fuse for safety) capable of carrying 8-10amps. The black wire to any chassis ground.

The rest will be connected as follows:

- Yellow to Priming pump red.
- Grey to pressure switch (806-162) grey side.

I will redraw the wiring diagram in the morning to include the custom made pulse extender box.

[turbojack]

I'm glad your around to answer questions like this Richard, It puts my mind at ease.

Thanks
Jack

[Richard L]

I have revised the drawing to conform to your latest addition (priming pump).

We still need to clearify how the "water fault" signal is interfaced with your current set up.

I gather from various posts from other SRT owners that the HOM line is not accessable. So uit leads me to consider other action such as lowering the boost. It can be done with the DDS3's pin #11 and #12 to cut the wire that goes to SRT's bleed valve. I need your help on that. Perhap some one can post me a picture and let me know the wiring colour that energise the valve from the ECU.

Alternatively, we can leave that part alone and let the knock sensor to switch off the HOM mode upon presence of knock. What you you think? I will update the drawing further.


http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/2C-DDS3-PSI-v2.gif

[turbojack]

The info I have is from documents in PDF format. Here's the links to the documents

http://www.dodge-srt4.com/howto.shtml
(Mopar Stage 2 Turbo Toys Instructions)
(page 4 has wiring diagram for the toys)

[turbojack]

The info I have are from documents in PDF format. Here's the links to the documents:

http://www.dodge-srt4.com/howto.shtml
(Mopar Stage 2 Turbo Toys Instructions)
(page 4 has wiring diagram for the toys)

http://www.dodge-srt4.com/tech.shtml
(PL Body Service Manual)
(pg 8W 30-26 has wastegate wiring info)

I've been hearing from other SRT-4 owners that also looked at what I'm trying to do. A couple are trying to do the same thing (HOM activation) with diff parts and components and ideas. For example, heres a copy of a comment from another SRT-4 owner after he had read about my Aquamist WI & HOM activation plans that I posted on the SRT-4 forums:

"Very nice. I take it that the yellow line is a momentary ground. Hard to tell. This was the problem I ran into. The ECU does not like constant ground. Very interesting."

I then replied with:

"I think I understand what you mean. The ECU needs to be able to override this. The DDS3 after making checks will activate the switch with a pulse. Even if the DDS3 say's things are good, the ECU can still say no."

To which he replied:

"What I had problems with was that pin C14 (white wire on HO Switch) need a 1 second pulse to ground to activate HOM one to deactivate... re-set so fourth. So with the varables in mind how do I educate my controler as to what state HOM is in. Ground side of the blinky red diode is good before the resistor. But no... There was a reson the red LED was a bad idea on either side. I can't remember what I found but I think it was voltage leaking from the ECU... Anyway
I started playing with the photocell side of a 12V Bolinger fiber optic tranciever. It knew when the light was out. It knew when it was on, and even better it knew when it was blinking... Then I lost intrest.
Please post what you come up with. I havn't abandoned my little bag of radioshake parts yet.
What is real nice is the use of a flowmeter rather that a pressure switch to see if fluid is moving."

So from reading peoples comments I'm a little lost.... taking everything perceived away and starting at square one.

From what I understand how HOM should work (NO WI, or DDS3):
You add race gas and then you hit the HOM switch and then run the car. The PCM/ECU sees the HOM has been activated and switches to an enhanced timing MAP or it just plain allows more timing based on HOM switch activation (more power). While in HOM mode the PCM lights up a Red LED to inform the driver of HOM activation. IF the driver activates HOM without race gas the red LED still lights up but... if after getting into the gas pedal the PCM receives a signal from the knock sensor that is not within the defined threshold of the HOM map it reverts to the base map (or reduced timing) and flashes the red LED informing the driver, hey you hit the HOM switch but you don?t have race gas in the tank, not going to allow this, possible engine damage.

The ideal scenario with WI:
The DDS3 makes the WI checks and activates HOM via sending a signal to the PCM just as if the switch was hit. The PCM activates the HOM map and lights up the red led. The DDS3 see that WI is still working fine. The driver gets into the gas pedal and because the WI has been setup and tuned correctly the red LED stay lit and the car has more power.

The problem scenario with WI #1):
The DDS3 makes the WI checks and activates HOM via sending a signal to the PCM just as if the switch was hit. The PCM activates the HOM map and lights up the red LED. The driver gets into the gas pedal and because the WI has NOT been tuned correctly the PCM reverts back to the non HOM map and blinks the red LED. The DDS3 does not care about the blinking red LED and continues to work even if HOM light blinks. The driver sees the HOM LED blinking and notices that the DDS3 is fine and realizes the tune is off. This IS NOT A WI failure problem it?s a tuning problem. To me this is how it should be.

The problem scenario with WI #2):
The DDS3 makes the WI checks and activates HOM via sending a signal to the PCM just as if the switch was hit. The PCM activates the HOM map and lights up the red LED. The driver gets into the gas pedal?shortly after the DDS3 sees WI failure?dumps boost and stops WI. Because WI fails PCM sees knock sensor reading above threshold ?.reverts MAP?red LED blinks. Driver either first sees DDS3 warnings or red LED either way doesn?t really matter since both systems have fail safes not dependant on driver action. Because the driver sees the DDS3 has found a failure in the WI he knows to look into the WI system. Again, to me this is how it should be.

The problem scenario, with WI #3):
The DDS3 makes the WI checks and something fails. Because of WI failure DDS3 never activates HOM, and PCM never lights up the red LED because the DDS3 never activated HOM. Again, to me this is how it should be.


OK, now why does the DDS3 need to know if PCM makes the red LED blink? If the DDS3 does not see a problem with WI, WI functions as designed. Just because the PCM say?s?hey you got no race gas in the tank, why does the DDS3 need to know, why should it care? The DDS3 does have control over a boost solenoid and will allow raised boost, this raised boost level will not be so much so, that without HOM working it will be dangerous. I always intended to tune the car first without any dependencies of WI for safety. The PCM will revert map regardless of whether WI works or not, IF it sees a knock threshold above HOM values.

I?m thinking that if the DDS3 can activate the HOM switch (turn on) then the DDS3?s HOM turn off capabilities is not necessary because the PCM takes care of that based on knock threshold values in the PCM. To me this is a fail safe that does not need to be messed with or enhanced in any manner.

IMO the answer is having the DDS3 just send a momentary pulse to the PCM. This pulse would be a mimic of the pulse of the switch when activated by hand. I must first say, that maybe I just don?t understand some basic electronics and this is not possible without also tying into the red LED so as to complete some type of circuit. I see the HOM activation by the DDS3 as a turn it on and forget it type of thing. Let the PCM via the Knock sensor say keep HOM on or turn it off because some parameter has not been successfully met. If I can, I would like for the DDS3 to turn HOM on and not care if red LED blinks. The proper function and control of the red LED by the PCM can be one of my tuning tools for WI.

Thanks
Jack

[Richard L]

The info I have is from documents in PDF format. Here's the links to the documents

http://www.dodge-srt4.com/howto.shtml
(Mopar Stage 2 Turbo Toys Instructions)
(page 4 has wiring diagram for the toys)


This link is pefect, I can now complete the entire wiiring diagram. Excellent link. Thank you.

[Richard L]

I have a question, When you are dialing in higher boost, does it matter if the "HOM mode" is on or off?


http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/turbotoy.jpg

[turbojack]

I think HOM functioning and boost control are seperate things. MY answer is NO to your question, dialing in higher boost does not matter if HOM on or OFF

[turbojack]

There is another part of the turbo toys package. DAB is Dial A Boost, this is used as a traction control device while at the track. I use setting 2 almost all the time street/track unless roads or slick from weather.

[Richard L]

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/turbotoy2.jpg

From the picture, numbered 1 to 5, please let me know what number 1 is for can I assume the following?

2 - Push to spray intercooler
3 - Indication of DAB level?
4 - DAB?
5 - HOM mode - press for a few seconds to activate.

A few more questions please:

1) Where are the blue and red led situated?
2) Does it have to be wired, drill and install by the user.
3) Was turbo toy's location occupied by a blanking panel on the standard car?

[turbojack]

1) is rear window defrost

2) push to activate auto IC spray hold down to manually spray

3) got me on that one had to go look at the car. Never really noticed. It does nothing, and I dont know what it is. I'll need to figure that out since it now bugs me that I dont really know.

4) DAB settings. In the picture it's on 3 (0, 1, 2, 3) it's a thumb wheel type of switch

5) HOM switch activation. Push once to activate (turns on red LED)

additonal questions:

1) the location of the red (HOM) and blue (IC sprayer) are up to the owner/installer of the toys option I put mine just under the boost gauge pod (which now is occupied by the DDS3).

2 &3) the toys switches are supplied in a panel (as in the picture) that directly replaces a cubby hole panel for cigs or glases etc... no drilling for the toys panel, but to install the LED lights you need to drill holes, again location of lights is up to installer/owner.

Ps. I was planning on posting pictures of all the components (incl DDS3 in the former boost gauge pod), how do I do this?

[Roverdose]

are you going to run into det (knocking) when turning the boost up on the std ecu mapping?

what boost are you running now? what will you be turning it up to? and when are you planning to inject the water?

if the ecu is expecting race gas, it will be from tickover to top revs. if you inject water too late the hom may have been turned off already.

Drew

[Richard L]

The info I have are from documents in PDF format. Here's the links to the documents:

http://www.dodge-srt4.com/howto.shtml
(Mopar Stage 2 Turbo Toys Instructions)
(page 4 has wiring diagram for the toys)

http://www.dodge-srt4.com/tech.shtml
(PL Body Service Manual)
(pg 8W 30-26 has wastegate wiring info)

I've been hearing from other SRT-4 owners that also looked at what I'm trying to do. A couple are trying to do the same thing (HOM activation) with diff parts and components and ideas. For example, heres a copy of a comment from another SRT-4 owner after he had read about my Aquamist WI & HOM activation plans that I posted on the SRT-4 forums:

"Very nice. I take it that the yellow line is a momentary ground. Hard to tell. This was the problem I ran into. The ECU does not like constant ground. Very interesting."

I then replied with:

"I think I understand what you mean. The ECU needs to be able to override this. The DDS3 after making checks will activate the switch with a pulse. Even if the DDS3 say's things are good, the ECU can still say no."

To which he replied:

"What I had problems with was that pin C14 (white wire on HO Switch) need a 1 second pulse to ground to activate HOM one to deactivate... re-set so fourth. So with the varables in mind how do I educate my controler as to what state HOM is in. Ground side of the blinky red diode is good before the resistor. But no... There was a reson the red LED was a bad idea on either side. I can't remember what I found but I think it was voltage leaking from the ECU... Anyway
I started playing with the photocell side of a 12V Bolinger fiber optic tranciever. It knew when the light was out. It knew when it was on, and even better it knew when it was blinking... Then I lost intrest.
Please post what you come up with. I havn't abandoned my little bag of radioshake parts yet.
What is real nice is the use of a flowmeter rather that a pressure switch to see if fluid is moving."

So from reading peoples comments I'm a little lost.... taking everything perceived away and starting at square one.

From what I understand how HOM should work (NO WI, or DDS3):
You add race gas and then you hit the HOM switch and then run the car. The PCM/ECU sees the HOM has been activated and switches to an enhanced timing MAP or it just plain allows more timing based on HOM switch activation (more power). While in HOM mode the PCM lights up a Red LED to inform the driver of HOM activation. IF the driver activates HOM without race gas the red LED still lights up but... if after getting into the gas pedal the PCM receives a signal from the knock sensor that is not within the defined threshold of the HOM map it reverts to the base map (or reduced timing) and flashes the red LED informing the driver, hey you hit the HOM switch but you don?t have race gas in the tank, not going to allow this, possible engine damage.

The ideal scenario with WI:
The DDS3 makes the WI checks and activates HOM via sending a signal to the PCM just as if the switch was hit. The PCM activates the HOM map and lights up the red led. The DDS3 see that WI is still working fine. The driver gets into the gas pedal and because the WI has been setup and tuned correctly the red LED stay lit and the car has more power.

The problem scenario with WI #1):
The DDS3 makes the WI checks and activates HOM via sending a signal to the PCM just as if the switch was hit. The PCM activates the HOM map and lights up the red LED. The driver gets into the gas pedal and because the WI has NOT been tuned correctly the PCM reverts back to the non HOM map and blinks the red LED. The DDS3 does not care about the blinking red LED and continues to work even if HOM light blinks. The driver sees the HOM LED blinking and notices that the DDS3 is fine and realizes the tune is off. This IS NOT A WI failure problem it?s a tuning problem. To me this is how it should be.

The problem scenario with WI #2):
The DDS3 makes the WI checks and activates HOM via sending a signal to the PCM just as if the switch was hit. The PCM activates the HOM map and lights up the red LED. The driver gets into the gas pedal?shortly after the DDS3 sees WI failure?dumps boost and stops WI. Because WI fails PCM sees knock sensor reading above threshold ?.reverts MAP?red LED blinks. Driver either first sees DDS3 warnings or red LED either way doesn?t really matter since both systems have fail safes not dependant on driver action. Because the driver sees the DDS3 has found a failure in the WI he knows to look into the WI system. Again, to me this is how it should be.

The problem scenario, with WI #3):
The DDS3 makes the WI checks and something fails. Because of WI failure DDS3 never activates HOM, and PCM never lights up the red LED because the DDS3 never activated HOM. Again, to me this is how it should be.


OK, now why does the DDS3 need to know if PCM makes the red LED blink? If the DDS3 does not see a problem with WI, WI functions as designed. Just because the PCM say?s?hey you got no race gas in the tank, why does the DDS3 need to know, why should it care? The DDS3 does have control over a boost solenoid and will allow raised boost, this raised boost level will not be so much so, that without HOM working it will be dangerous. I always intended to tune the car first without any dependencies of WI for safety. The PCM will revert map regardless of whether WI works or not, IF it sees a knock threshold above HOM values.

I?m thinking that if the DDS3 can activate the HOM switch (turn on) then the DDS3?s HOM turn off capabilities is not necessary because the PCM takes care of that based on knock threshold values in the PCM. To me this is a fail safe that does not need to be messed with or enhanced in any manner.

IMO the answer is having the DDS3 just send a momentary pulse to the PCM. This pulse would be a mimic of the pulse of the switch when activated by hand. I must first say, that maybe I just don?t understand some basic electronics and this is not possible without also tying into the red LED so as to complete some type of circuit. I see the HOM activation by the DDS3 as a turn it on and forget it type of thing. Let the PCM via the Knock sensor say keep HOM on or turn it off because some parameter has not been successfully met. If I can, I would like for the DDS3 to turn HOM on and not care if red LED blinks. The proper function and control of the red LED by the PCM can be one of my tuning tools for WI.

Thanks
Jack

These are excellent information and ideas that will help me in my wring scheme. I am taking every point on board and have suggested the following strategy as a starter.

If the aim of WI is to replace race fuel, then the whole project should be simple. Based on that assumption, I suugest:

1) Detect teh HOM mode by monitoring the red led - when the WI sees the "low" signal from wire terminal #C14, it can switch on the water injection - may be some interfacing circuitry, but put that aside for the time being.

2) If knock presists after depression of gas paddle after WI is mapped, the HOM mode will drop out and so does the WI - until bigger jet is used or a new map is created.

3) If WI fails, the above will also automatically cancel the HOM by the ECU.

What do you think?

[Richard L]

1) is rear window defrost

2) push to activate auto IC spray hold down to manually spray

3) got me on that one had to go look at the car. Never really noticed. It does nothing, and I dont know what it is. I'll need to figure that out since it now bugs me that I dont really know.

4) DAB settings. In the picture it's on 3 (0, 1, 2, 3) it's a thumb wheel type of switch

5) HOM switch activation. Push once to activate (turns on red LED)

additonal questions:

1) the location of the red (HOM) and blue (IC sprayer) are up to the owner/installer of the toys option I put mine just under the boost gauge pod (which now is occupied by the DDS3).

2 &3) the toys switches are supplied in a panel (as in the picture) that directly replaces a cubby hole panel for cigs or glases etc... no drilling for the toys panel, but to install the LED lights you need to drill holes, again location of lights is up to installer/owner.

Ps. I was planning on posting pictures of all the components (incl DDS3 in the former boost gauge pod), how do I do this?

You need to store your pictures on a public accessable site first then you
post the url of that site between url quotes.

You can email me the pictures: richard@aquamist.co.uk, I should be able to do the rest.

I have one more question, looking at the wiring diagram, can the wire such as the c14 accessable from the back of the panel?

[turbojack]

Quote:
"1) Detect teh HOM mode by monitoring the red led - when the WI sees the "low" signal from wire terminal #C14, it can switch on the water injection - may be some interfacing circuitry, but put that aside for the time being. "

Answer:
If I understand this correctly and the low signal is what makes the red LED blink the WI would be injected when the red light blinks. When the red light blinks, the the PCM has diababled HOM, too late for WI at this point. I think that when the DDS3 first sees a signal going from the HOM switch to the PCM it's time to turn on the WI is better.

Quote:
2) If knock presists after depression of gas paddle after WI is mapped, the HOM mode will drop out and so does the WI - until bigger jet is used or a new map is created.

Answer:
I see no reason to stop water injection if if PCM sees knock. The PCM will bypass HOM if it sees knock, but WI can still run. IMO the DDS3 uses info to control WI components. The PCM uses info to control fuel, AND disable HOM if knock threshold is exceded (I have just way over simplified what the PCM actually does but please except this for the sake of reading this). I was just thinking about using the DDS3 to activate the HOM switch, it will have no control over it other then turning it on, after this DDS3 is done with HOM. The PCM still controls whether it will stay activated based on knock values.

Above should also answer #3 in same post

Quote:
I have one more question, looking at the wiring diagram, can the wire such as the c14 accessable from the back of the panel?

Answer:
yes

[turbojack]

are you going to run into det (knocking) when turning the boost up on the std ecu mapping?

what boost are you running now? what will you be turning it up to? and when are you planning to inject the water?

if the ecu is expecting race gas, it will be from tickover to top revs. if you inject water too late the hom may have been turned off already.

Drew

Several SRT-4 are already upping the boost without water and without the HOM. Without stage II or with stage II the boost can be raised (factory stock settings bypased by the owner), however the PCM will still retard timing when knock present.

I'm using the factory supplied adjustment instructions for Stage II on the factory supplied stage II wastegate actuator. This yields for me about 16.5 -19.0 (conditions apply). Right now I dont plan on upping the boost since at this point I'm trying to concentrate on HOM without race gas. As far as when I plan on injecting water, the actual WI tune will be handled by same people who market the piggyback I'm using. They have a fair amount of experiance of using the piggy back to control the HSV plus they have a very good working knowledge of the SRT-4. So I dont know at this point yet.

Because whether the HOM working or not is dependent on what the knock sensor sees and then feeds to the PCM, I think the key will be to find out when the car is near MBT since if I've read correctly this is where knock will be most prevalent. While road tuning and watching info via a ODBDII scanner I might be able to start a basic tune fairly close and then tune thu expermenting and datalogging till I can get the HOM light to stay lit. if it blinks I know the tune is off.
[/quote]

[Richard L]

Quote:

Answer:
If I understand this correctly and the low signal is what makes the red LED blink the WI would be injected when the red light blinks. When the red light blinks, the the PCM has diababled HOM, too late for WI at this point. I think that when the DDS3 first sees a signal going from the HOM switch to the PCM it's time to turn on the WI is better.



Looking at the wiring MOPAR wiring diagram, the +ve end of the red led is wired directly to a steady +12V via a resistor.

In order for the led to light up (HOM is ON), the c14 junction has to go "low". When the led blinks, the c14 junction will go "high, "low", "high", "low" etc.

My logic tell me that when c14 goes low, it is at the "HOM" mode.

The function of the HOM switch is not important as it is momentary so I cannot determine what state it is in after it was pressed until the red confirms it. It can also cancel the HOM mode after a momentary "press".

Am I on the right track?

[turbojack]

I think your right on the money. However understand YOU are better then I in reading and interpreting a wiring diagram, and understanding what the symbols actually mean (I have to look them up in a internet glossary).

[Roverdose]

i see, so you can press the hom switch and get a few revs going before it turns itself off?

Drew

[Richard L]

I think your right on the money. However understand YOU are better then I in reading and interpreting a wiring diagram, and understanding what the symbols actually mean (I have to look them up in a internet glossary).

We need to decide at some point how water injection will play its part.
I suggest the follwoing list of priority (order of importance):

1) Replacing high octane fuel at "HOM" mode
2) What action to take under water fault conditions
3) Actively disable the HOM mode or allow the ECU to switch off the HOM
4) Lower the boost pressure to wastegate setting by the DDS3

Question:
The rate of injection is determined by the PSI-FI and how can we tell the PSI-FI that we are in HOM mode?

At present the DDS3 will not know when the water should be injected so it cannot flag a logical fault under these conditions - it will only report that water is flowing or not. We can put an interface circuit to tell the DDS3 and PSI-FI at the exactly the same time that HOM mode is activated.

Is there a spare input on the PSI-FI to that effect? Once we have extablished this, we can sail forward.

[turbojack]

i see, so you can press the hom switch and get a few revs going before it turns itself off?

Drew

As it works without water injection

Add race gas to nearly empty tank (fuel warning bell or approx 1/8 tank). Run the car a couple of miles to use up lower octane still in the lines and to make sure any still left in tank mixes well with the newly added race gas. Hit the HOM switch and run the car. A red LED will stay lit after hitting the HOM switch (informing the driver that HOM is on and working).

As long as the PCM does not see a signal from knock sensor that would imply that there isnt race gas in the tank, you can run on HOM for as long as you have race gas.

IF for any reason the PCM gets a signal from the knock sensor that would give the PCM reason to suspect that you DO NOT have race gas after hitting the HOM switch, the PCM will override the switch and default back to stock mode and the red LED would blink (informing the driver that HOM has been shut down by the PCM).

Using the HOM allows for more timing = more power = car faster.

[turbojack]

We need to decide at some point how water injection will play its part.
I suggest the follwoing list of priority (order of importance):

1) Replacing high octane fuel at "HOM" mode
2) What action to take under water fault conditions
3) Actively disable the HOM mode or allow the ECU to switch off the HOM
4) Lower the boost pressure to wastegate setting by the DDS3

Question:
The rate of injection is determined by the PSI-FI and how can we tell the PSI-FI that we are in HOM mode?

At present the DDS3 will not know when the water should be injected so it cannot flag a logical fault under these conditions - it will only report that water is flowing or not. We can put an interface circuit to tell the DDS3 and PSI-FI at the exactly the same time that HOM mode is activated.

Is there a spare input on the PSI-FI to that effect? Once we have extablished this, we can sail forward.

Richard I'm working on a full reply to your questions.

So far I can answer:

OK, I agree #1, is to get the WI up and going and see if can get HOM to function using just WI. #2, let the DDS3 shut down WI components on failure of WI components/lack of flow. #3, let the PCM switch off HOM. #4, have the DDS3 control the 806-234 to limit/control boost.

The PP (Power Paq) can turn on the water injection but I dont know for shure if it can accept an input....stay tuned

[Roverdose]

i get what your saying.

what i wanted to say is if you press the hom button, can you drive anywhere before it turns itself off?

because this will determine whether or not you could use water to replace the higher octane fuel and/or where to start injecting.

say you press the hom button on tickover (without race gas) and it turns itself off! that would tell me you need to inject water from tickover.

Drew

[turbojack]

i get what your saying.

what i wanted to say is if you press the hom button, can you drive anywhere before it turns itself off?

because this will determine whether or not you could use water to replace the higher octane fuel and/or where to start injecting.

say you press the hom button on tickover (without race gas) and it turns itself off! that would tell me you need to inject water from tickover.

Drew

I can drive the car with the HOM switch activated, anywhere and as long as the car has gas, even with the red LED blinking (PCM override). I think the water injection will need to be tuned so that it reduces knock in about the same way race gas does (or as close to that as possible I can get). I'm sure some experimenting will take place to achive this.

Tickover? I'm sorry, does this mean on startup? If yes, the HOM activation will not be disabled by the PCM unless it sees a value from the knock sensor that is not within the PCM accepted parameters. So, on start up the engine is basically at idle, knock should not occur here, and the red LED will be solid. Once the engine RPM is increased and or is under a load, knock may happen and if the PCM say's no go, it shuts down HOM (but not the car, and it does not put it in limp mode) and the red LED blinks.

[Roverdose]

Once the engine RPM is increased and or is under a load, knock may happen and if the PCM say's no go, it shuts down HOM

when is that then? at a certain revs / throttle position / boost?

Drew

[turbojack]

Once the engine RPM is increased and or is under a load, knock may happen and if the PCM say's no go, it shuts down HOM

when is that then? at a certain revs / throttle position / boost?

Drew

Knock can occur due to bad gas, high temps, load etc.. so to say it occurs under at a precise repeatable parameter for all situations would be wrong. If it did the PCM could be programmed to look at just this parameter and make an adjustment, because I do not run the car under the same conditions consistently the PCM needs to get real time input so as to be flexible enough to counter knock under varying conditions. If I were to do extensive data logging and I were to only run at the track I might be able to eliminate or limit the amount of variables so as to make the tuning easier but since the car is daily driven all year long, I can't, so I'll live with some of the inconsistency and try to compensate like the PCM does within the available means I have.

[turbojack]

This past Saturday I installed a second jet in the cold side pipe. This jet is past the charge air temp sensor. So now the injectors are placed as follows .9 jet in the end of the IC and a .7 jet in the cold side pipe. The car pulls noticeably harder with the second jet installed and the HOM light stays solid red no matter how hard the car is driven or the outside temps (temp today was 95 degrees). In the up pipe I sill have another injector fitting that?s capped off right now that I can add third injector to if I later decide to revise the system for what ever reason.

It seems to me that the current setup is doing two things with the two jets. The first jet located in the IC end tank is cooling down the charge temp considerably since before and after readings when that jet was first installed showed a drop of about 40 degrees. The second jet that is located after the charge air temp sensor is injecting water that is not getting atomized as well as the first and it is these water molecules (on top of the cooled down charge temp from the first jet) that is completing the effort to reduce or limit the knock.

I was thinking that I could have the water injection system activate HOM but after driving with this setup for awhile now I like it as it is and have no regrets. The only thing I need to do is hit the HOM switch after starting the car. If I could change anything at this point is to have the HOM activated when the car is running so wouldn?t need to remember to turn it on?..me = lazy :D

Only a couple of Aquamist components left to install, the piggy back tune rechecked out to confirm settings, and the HOM/WI system will be complete. Next step I think will be pre-turbo injection.

[Richard L]

Every picture paints a thousand words, Sorry for the delay turbojack - I have only just sized them up and thank for the pictures.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/1.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/2.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/3.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/4.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/5.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/6.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/7.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/8.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/9.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/10.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/11.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/12.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/13.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/14.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/15.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/17.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/18.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/19.jpg

[turbojack]

I have more pictures to take of the hard pipe I replaced the stock one with. This new hard pipe has the jet adapters and the second jet I just installed. I still haven?t got the car detailed so I don?t have pictures of the outside for you just yet....hope to do this Saturday, but I?m relying on my buddy since he?s the expert with the buffer.

When you have time (I feel bad asking...but I need a little assistance so I do the install correctly), can you revise the schematic to reflect the additional components I received. More specifically the FIA2 806-441, the adjustable pressure switch 806-157, and the 2-way inline valve 806-234.

Also, I'm not an WI expert but I really feel that the second injector up by the throttle body has iced the cake with regards to the HOM LED staying solid red....it's really a blast to know that no matter what, it works. I'm so happy with WI, the Aquamist components, and your assistance and advice.

Oh and another thing, it?s been pretty hot here the past two days and tomorrow will be possibly hotter according to the forecasts. I have no doubt about the HOM light staying solid even with the outside temps above 95 degrees.
:D :D :D

[Richard L]

I think I have put most bits in - please let me know if you like anything else included.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/turbojack/turbojack2.gif

[turbojack]

Thanks for putting this together for me Richard. I can't wait to install these and fine tune everything.

Oops, I forgot to get you a picture of the new up pipe with the second injector.... I'll try to get that to you over the weekend. I think I'm also going to clean up the install (WI component area) as I add in the additional items.

[davesrt4]

Thank you for the quick reply on srtforums, Richard! :D

Basically here is the plan

Here is my basic set up

Built engine with 8.8 compression vs. 8.1 stock. bored .020 over
Fuel injectors are 682cc @ 75 psi. 2728 cc/min total flow. (682cc/min*4)
S3 w/o toys-MITSUBISHI TD05/10cm2 Turbo-...but I will have a toybox soon....hello HOM.
Lorenzo 60 mm TB+60mm adapter.
Ported intake manifold.
Full 3" turbo back-maxfabb SEE- w/o cat.
I have not datalogged or used an A/F gauge yet, but i have changed the v/e of the engine enough to warrant about 11.0 @ WOT. that should be 1 point or so leaner that w/o the porting
I am estimating 335 hp without HOM....385 with HOM?
I am considering a direct port set up or dual nozzle set up.

If I were to go dual nozzle I would probably follow turbojack's nozzle placement.

The only thing I see as a potential problem with the multi nozzle set up is the ability to monitor a clogged nozzle. It looks as if the multi-nozzle set up would lose the ability to detect if just one nozzle is blocked. If you were to use a flow detector on each nozzle , it would be pricey to say the least.

I have the 2d kit and it comes with a FI computer but it is more of a shadowing device of the FI pulses vs. a full mappable set up such as turbojack's.

I was thinking of something along the lines of a DP+ IC end tank type set up ~5 nozzzles.

If I were to try a dual nozzle set up first I would probably go a .9 in the IC and a .8 before the TB

I'm guesing here but I think a .8 in the IC and a set of 4x .1 jets in the intake runners would be a good place to start at in trying to achieve 24/7HOM. I think a larger jet in the IC would go a long way to cool down intake temps and smaller jets in the runners would help control the detonation. I think what is needed is the ability to control the intake temps and surpress detonation. I think the key would be total saturation of the air intake charge,but not oversaturate it. Literally, you will need a perfect even dist of h2o.

I would like to try A 4X .3 setup but i think that would cause to large of a pressure drop in the line.Do the aquamist kits with the high speed injector valve keep a constant pressure, or will the pressure drop with the addition of extra jets?. If you are going only DP you would not get nearly the charege cooling and supression of det you would normally get with and IC jet + DP.

What do you think of a 6 nozzle set up?

(Intercooler end tank jet)+(Throttle Body jet)+(Direct Port jets)= .(total nozzle size,distribution)

.2+.2+(.2x4 )=.12 total?

or

.3+.1+(.2x4 )=.12 total?

or

.7+.1+(.1x4 )=.12 total?

or

.6+.2+(.1x4 )=.12 total?

Do you think it would be better to inject more at the begging of the air tract tapering down or inject less ta the begging of the air tract and increase as the air charge progresses?
I am of the opinion that LESS NOZZLE ARE BETTER THAN MORE....I would like to keep it simple....
hmmmmm......

[Richard L]

If you are going for a twin nozzle set up permanently, I can narrow down the 2d's diagnostic window but require some playing around. YOu car is equipped with a knock sensor, I wouldn't get too comncerned, provided the HOM is not going to be taken away after all the other mods.

If you have a priming pump pushing the AM pump, you can get almost 550cc/min, you can run 4x 0.3mm and may be 1x 0.5mm jet immediately aftyer the intercooler.

The 0.3mm jet flows 75cc/min. at 6bar.

Richard

PS, whilst you are building the engien, why not put some brass adaptor in place and plug them up for future use.

Here is what they look like just in case yopu haven't seen them before. It come with a M8 blanking plug.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/806-359-s.jpg

[turbojack]

Hi Richard

I took the WI off early in the winter in anticipation of redoing the install in the spring = making it cleaner and easier to work on.

Some things I was going over

I can't seem to remember the specs on the what the pressure output on the priming pump should be, I want to make sure the pump I'm currently using is not putting out too much pressure. Can you advise me on this?

You have recommend the Flowjet 122-202 as a priming pump, after looking online I see that it has a 3/8 inlet and outlet barbs. What hardware is available that you know of that would fit onto these barbs but accept the 6mm line?

I?m thinking of revising the supply for the WI system by using the factory washer fluid tank. This tank sits very low up front. Will the priming pump allow me to have the Aquamist pump higher then the supply without an issue?

I have installed a Cold air intake system to free up some room under the hood. I will be installing the WI components in the freed up space. I could use some assistance:

1) The grey clips that hold the 30 cc accumulator can they be purchased separately, I think mine are a little worn out from installing and removing them a couple of times during my initial install and then removal.

2) I have seen some images of some clips that have been used for holding the HSV. I thought I remember seeing a part number was posted but I can no longer find that info, can you assist with the correct number for these? Were these from another supplier if so can you help with the name?

Lastly an update to the car,

1) Last month I upgraded to a Mopar stage III turbo system. The stage III upgrade has increased the HP & torque a fair amount over the stage II. The car is decidedly quicker now, but I can?t wait till have it running in HOM like I did with stage II??.it?s a big power increase with HOM activated, plus water is much cheaper then race gas.
2) This past weekend I upgraded the Intercooler to an AIS large mount to help compliment the bigger stage III turbo. This is an improvement over the stock IC in cooling efficiency. I taped the IC exit tank for an Aquamist jet adapter just like I did with the stock IC. Still need to reinstall the IC sprayers though, I'll fabricate something that will work.

Here?s a link to the Mopar website describing the stage III upgrade
http://www.mopar.com/street/products_srt4_stage3.htm

[turbojack]

I did some of the reinstall revision yesterday and today.

To clean up the WI installation I decided to eliminate the fuel cell and use the washer tank instead. The washer tank is well below where I mounted the Aquamist pump. I have anticipated that a priming pump will have to be used for get water to the Aquamist pump, unlike my old setup where the priming pump was mainly for increasing the pressure capabilities of the Aquamist pump using the pulse extender since the fuel cell was above the pump. I have purchased the 806-500 recently, does this eliminate the pulse extender or is this just for priming pump activation?

I want to replace my current priming pump, I want to purchase the Flowjet 122-202 and use this as a priming pump. Before purchasing this can you tell me if there is any hardware available that you know of that would fit onto these barbs but accept the 6mm line? Is there any importance of the priming pump mounting location......nearer to the supply tank......below the supply pickup......closer to the Aquamist pump....ect.?

On the 3rd revision of the diagram you made me the two-way inline valve is labeled as 806-238 and the wires are red and blue. The two-way inline valve I have is labeled 806-234 and the wires are red and brown. Is there anything here to be concerned with?

Concerning the purple wire from the FIA in the 3rd revision diagram, can you explain this hook up for me so I do not make any errors?
EDIT: I think I found the correct answer in this thread http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1104.

If I?m already using the DDS3, the lamps on the FIA2 are more for diagnostics and dialing in the 806-157, not monitoring correct?

The orange wire ?LED ? resistor ? red wire from the FIA2 (blocked jet) is a redundant warning, or used for diagnostics of the HSV hookup since the flow sensor and the DDS3 should see the blocked jet as well. The reason I ask this and the above question is the pass compartment location of these items?.I?m debating on a pillar pod since dash space is limited without cutting and fabricating.

In the diagram there shows to be two red wires from the FIA2. One goes to a fuse then switched power, the other goes to the HSV and gets tapped for the blocked jet LED. Which red wire from the FIA2 goes to which device/end point, does it matter, or am I over thinking things? Can you clarify this so that I hook this up correctly?
EDIT: I think I found the correct answer in this thread, http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1104
If I'm correct I can hook this up to my Zeitronix's user selected input so I can see this eaisly when I want to

The inline two-way inline valve (806-234), I?m going to be using this for boost cut only, and this will get the signal based on the settings in the DDS3. The car has a factory wastegate solenoid that I do not want to interfere with since this is integral with the proper function of the DAB (Dial-A-Boost) option in the toys package. This device (806-234) can go in line and exist with the factory wastegate solenoid, correct? If it can I do not need to put in a bleed, correct? I?m trying to think about this and above may sound like a noob question but I really want to keep the current boost level (stage III is spiking at 23.5 lbs), IMO that?s plenty of boost I really don?t think more boost is needed, just less fuel (without any fuel trimming and using my Zeitronix system, the Mopar stage III is showing EGT?s spiking at around 925c sometimes). I?m thinking that if I tune out some of the dumped fuel using the PSI-FI piggy back (probably no more then 12.2 AFR), replace the dumped fuel with the water and use HOM and keep the current boost I?ll be about where I want if things work well. If the WI does have a failure or does not work well, the two-way inline valve would just bump boost?.no need for a bleed (raised boost), correct, do I need to reread things about WGA?s and boost solenoids?

With the DDS3 power off, is the inline two-way valve dumping boost?

With regards to the flow sensor and HSV. With the new revisions does the flow sensor still need to be after the HSV to be most effective? Can I have the flow sensor hooked up right at the pressure switch (806-162) then followed directly by the HVS? Currently I have the HSV after the pressure switch and before the flow sensor.

Last question, I think it might mean little?..but can I have the two jets that are controlled by the HSV located unequally away from the HSV? Basically the new setup is temporarily installed as follows, a sort length of hose is coming out of the HSV, and then a Y connector with one short length of hose going to a jet located near the throttle body, with another longer length of hose going to a jet located in the IC exit tank.

[Richard L]

Hi Richard

I took the WI off early in the winter in anticipation of redoing the install in the spring = making it cleaner and easier to work on.

Some things I was going over

I can't seem to remember the specs on the what the pressure output on the priming pump should be, I want to make sure the pump I'm currently using is not putting out too much pressure. Can you advise me on this?

You have recommend the Flowjet 122-202 as a priming pump, after looking online I see that it has a 3/8 inlet and outlet barbs. What hardware is available that you know of that would fit onto these barbs but accept the 6mm line?

I?m thinking of revising the supply for the WI system by using the factory washer fluid tank. This tank sits very low up front. Will the priming pump allow me to have the Aquamist pump higher then the supply without an issue?

The priming is useful if you want to run beyond 330cc/min, regardless fo wherethe water is located. I believe you have now unpgraded your enigne with more power. I think retaining the priming pump arrangement is helpful.


I have installed a Cold air intake system to free up some room under the hood. I will be installing the WI components in the freed up space. I could use some assistance:

1) The grey clips that hold the 30 cc accumulator can they be purchased separately, I think mine are a little worn out from installing and removing them a couple of times during my initial install and then removal.

I will ship you a few with the new bracket - for your friend

2) I have seen some images of some clips that have been used for holding the HSV. I thought I remember seeing a part number was posted but I can no longer find that info, can you assist with the correct number for these? Were these from another supplier if so can you help with the name?

I will also include them


Lastly an update to the car,

1) Last month I upgraded to a Mopar stage III turbo system. The stage III upgrade has increased the HP & torque a fair amount over the stage II. The car is decidedly quicker now, but I can?t wait till have it running in HOM like I did with stage II??.it?s a big power increase with HOM activated, plus water is much cheaper then race gas.
2) This past weekend I upgraded the Intercooler to an AIS large mount to help compliment the bigger stage III turbo. This is an improvement over the stock IC in cooling efficiency. I taped the IC exit tank for an Aquamist jet adapter just like I did with the stock IC. Still need to reinstall the IC sprayers though, I'll fabricate something that will work.

You definately need the priming pump. I wne to the site but the enlarged power plot chat is missing.

Here?s a link to the Mopar website describing the stage III upgrade
http://www.mopar.com/street/products_srt4_stage3.htm