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View Full Version : Is WI an alterative to IC


stevetubbyturbo
09-05-2005, 05:22 AM
Hi i posted this in general effect but was told to post it in the diesel section as well so here goes.

I have a Toyota 2.4 TD 4x4 and was looking to intercool it execpt it has proven almost impossible to do this due to the car being an automatic and where a IC could fit it taken up by the transmission cooler

So i was wondering is WI a alterative to intercooling?

Also if i fitted WI would it help clear up my smoke emissions?

Cheers

Steve

Prometeus
25-05-2005, 05:47 PM
Hi steve,

If placed together aquamist and intercooler would work even better. Anyway it would work less than an intercooler, but more in power expecially with a mixture of Water and Methanol.

the-dubster
31-05-2005, 10:56 PM
Hi Steve

Is there any room for/chance of putting a Intercooler or charge cooler in the front wing, between the wheelarch liner (if it has one) and the bumper? Many OE installations use this for IC location, the possibility of using a charge cooler overcomes the problem of limited air flow in that area and lets face it, the space isn't much use for anything else! :lol:

Just a suggestion.

Your original question has also been discussed here http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12
You might find just the answer you were hoping for.
Cheers

Andy

gsxr
22-08-2005, 06:20 PM
The thread where people successfully used WI instead of an IC were all gassers, not diesels. I just completed a WI installation on my turbodiesel and was very disappointed to discover I got ZERO reduction in EGT's. The WI setup is working correctly (I verified everything). At the moment I'm not convinced that WI can replace an IC on a turbodiesel... need to read more threads though.

:cry:

Richard L
23-08-2005, 03:16 PM
Your diesel egt reduction is probably offset by the extended burnrate, put some methanol into the water will chemically advance your frame speed and should therefore see a reduction of EGT.

Try 25% methanol first.

gsxr
23-08-2005, 04:29 PM
OK - right now I'm running straight 100% water. I'll try a methanol mix and see what that does. I'll post back with results... thanks!!

:cool:

gsxr
01-09-2005, 06:02 PM
Haven't been able to locate straight methanol yet, but I did pick up winterized washer fluid with methanol (unknown percentage). So far there is still no change in peak EGT's under extended WOT.

Also, I found my nozzle is rated 200cc / 3gpm. Should I increase my nozzle size or is it the correct one for my setup (3.0L turbodiesel, 150-180hp, 120psi pump)??

:?:

gsxr
20-09-2005, 07:56 PM
No reply? Is there an FAQ or something I'm missing here? How do I calculate the proper amount of water to inject, other than adding more and more until I see white smoke out the tailpipe?

:?:

Prometeus
22-09-2005, 04:43 PM
Hi gsxr,

We've prepared a basic fuel for Aquamist injection in Diesel Engines. It's very gooooood :smile:
It costs about 0,62 ? + VAT per Liter.
We can send it everywhere.

Regards
Prometeus.

gsxr
10-04-2006, 05:52 PM
Update... with a 300cc nozzle (@ 100psi) my intake air temps stabilize around 150F, but the EGT's do not drop at all (using a water/methanol mix). I tried a 600cc nozzle and the intake air temps remain around 150F, still no EGT reduction, but I did get a slight power increase (possibly from the methanol being burned as fuel?).

Any ideas why my EGT's are not dropping? I've seem nearly 1500F at which point I chickened out and backed off the throttle...

:shock:

Obscene_CNN
10-04-2006, 06:28 PM
I have no idea why your not seeing a drop in EGT's. You should be. Out of curiosity, what sort of vehicle is this on and where do you have the nozzel located?

gsxr
10-04-2006, 07:13 PM
The vehicle is a 1987 Mercedes 300D, with a 3.0L turbodiesel. Boost pressure is 14psi. The nozzle is located maybe 8 inches from the compressor outlet. I installed an AutoMeter intake air temp gauge to verify that I'm getting a reduction in IAT's with the water injection, which I am. At sustained full boost, without injection, IAT's are in the 200-220F range. With injection turned on, the temps drop to 150-160F, or if I have injection turned on from the beginning the temps don't rise above 150-160F. So I am getting a reduction in IAT's, but again there's no visible change in EGT's. (Ambient temp for the above data is 50-60F.) My exhaust is approx 2.25" diameter and I only have one muffler at the rear of the car, nothing else.


Photos:

I don't have a current photo of the nozzle, but it's installed on the diamond-shaped blank plate:
http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM603_intake/EGR_after2.jpg

Here's a photo of my exhaust manifolds and turbocharger:
http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM603_exhaust/thermo-tec4.jpg

Here's a photo showing the location of my EGT probe:
http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM603_exhaust/EGT_intstall1.jpg

Obscene_CNN
10-04-2006, 07:36 PM
Your EGT probe could be in a better spot, you really want your EGT probe to be in a spot where the exhaust flow from all cylinders flow past. Your airflow seems to have a lot of tight turns after the water injection point. I wonder if your getting any of the water mist to that cylinder that your EGT probe is monitoring. With the drop in IATs you should be seeing a drop in EGTs regardless. If its not to much of a hassle try moving the EGT probe to that capped port on your exhaust manifold and see what the numbers are.

gsxr
10-04-2006, 07:46 PM
It will definitely be a pain, but I may try to mount the probe into the capped hole and take readings there as well. That's a thin sheet metal cap and I'll need to figure out how to attach a 1/8" NPT threaded hole for the probe there. Zeitgeist has the same car as me, with the EGT probe in the same location, and he's seeing much lower EGT's but he has a front-mount intercooler, and no water injection. I was wondering if my readings were a little high since the probe is so close to the exhaust valve, but his data seems to indicate otherwise. (??)

BTW, I've got a detailed thread on this topic over on the Mercedes forum with some photos of the gauges, including a photo of the EGT reading at ~1500F, over here:
http://buymbparts.com/forum/showthread.php?t=475&page=2&pp=20

Obscene_CNN
11-04-2006, 06:49 PM
One of the reason placement of an EGT senosor close to an exhaust port is bad is because the sensor gets heated by the one pulse and then is allowed to cool to the rest of the exhaust manifold temperature. As the exhaust gasses are still expanding as they leave the port they are not as cool as they will be. This can lead to an elevated reading. You still should be able to see a difference with the water injection though.

Edit: A good source for methanol is a dry gas.

Prometeus
05-05-2006, 12:00 PM
One of the reason placement of an EGT senosor close to an exhaust port is bad is because the sensor gets heated by the one pulse and then is allowed to cool to the rest of the exhaust manifold temperature. As the exhaust gasses are still expanding as they leave the port they are not as cool as they will be. This can lead to an elevated reading. You still should be able to see a difference with the water injection though.

Edit: A good source for methanol is a dry gas.

There are many other different ways.... :roll:

Solar_Subaru
13-08-2007, 03:04 AM
I have overall seen lower engine coolant temps using precompressor water injection on my VW diesel. I do not have an EGT.
I use a variety of mixes from straight water, to straight methanol. I am running about 14 psi boost without and intercooler, so the difference is VERY noticeable! I see a 4-5 psi boost increase with straight methanol.
The difference is hard to notice on straight water, but under extended periods of boost, the water definitely keeps the temps down. It is even cooler with more power with more methanol in the mix. Some of this is probably due to the intercooling effect the spray has on the intake charge.
As far as suppliers go, check out some of the Biodeisel Forums, Those guys know where to get cheap methanol! sometimes as little as $1 a gallon.
Good luck,
Tony

nutron
10-02-2008, 08:40 PM
Firstly, I run a kit in my 1.9CDTI Vectra which has been remapped and modified to death.

I have two, yes TWO intercoolers, both of which would make most cars radiators look inadequate. I run upto 2 bar (2.04kg/cm2 to be exact) and I still see a 15-20bhp increase from water methanol injection. I believe alot of this is more due to the methanol than the cooling as I haven't been able to push over 230bhp with the water/methanol and diesel alone. If I up the diesel (by increasing injection pressure/timing) or if I increase the methanol% it makes no odds, I get no more and can lose bhp/lbft.

If you don't have an intercooler, the difference you see may be even larger than what I have seen but it will work on top of an intercooler.

I'm now try out adding a butane/propane mix, added through the intake. This is added at the filter in gas form (I tried liquid and the results were explosive!!!! :( my poor car was bleeding oil) and the water methanol (20-30% methanol as I'm adding other fuels also) is injected after the intercoolers. I have had reading of 246bhp but I need more testing to be sure.

oldturkey
17-04-2008, 07:28 AM
I see that Nutron attempted to inject LIQUID propane into the intake air.
I am interested to know how he did this?
Theoreticaly, providing that you don't overfuel, it should not be any more dangerous than injecting vapour, and it has the added benefit of intercooling.
I wonder if it could be done using a modified petrol injection system?