2.5 non turbo diesel

[sideshowbob]

I have a 2.5L non turbo Ford Transit that I want to fit a water injection system to. I have experemented with H2O injection in the past with a 2.0 petrol engine, gettign a small but measurable decrease in fuel consumption and very good emission readings.
The amount of water I was injecting was approx 10% fuel volume.
Does anyone have any advice? I am not looking for big power increases rather increase in economy and reduction in emmissions.

[Prometeus]

Hi sideshow

should try with a special mixture of water/gasoil (the so called Aquazole by Total ) and use a mixture of water and methanol instead of only water... you'll enjoy the engine both in NOx reduction and in power increasing... (Done in March 2004 with a 1.2 "turbo" diesel engine)

Unfortunatly these datas are not officially yet because there are many other troubles in emissions. WI reduces NOx but increase some other pollutant emissions.

[sideshowbob]

Thanks for your reply Prometeus, - so far I have not fitted anything to the engine, I have just bought the van and it is in need of some work as it is I was thinking of making the WI part of the refurbishment.
I have the pump I used on the petrol engine, an all plastic, low pressure fuel lift pump.
On the previous instalation the pump fed a jet made from a peice of copper capilary tube fed down into the inlet manifold below the carburettor. The flow was controled by a needle valve linked to the throttle linkage, set to start flowing at 1/3 throttle.
The transit has an exhaust recirculation system linked to throttle position and maniold vacuum. I was thinking of using this mechanism to control the water flow.
I realise the manifold vacuum will be much lower than on the petrol engine but was thinking of using a small venturi to help atomise the water jet, and so overcome the lack of pressure on my delivery pump.

[Prometeus]

Well... the steps might be these:

1st step- U need to control WI strictly to diesel injection pump first of all.

2nd step- Should use Aquazole instead of normal Diesel fuel

3rd step- Should use a mixture of 50/50 Water and Methanol.

4th step- the WI should pass through the air inflow

5th step- should be better to use a prepared pump like the one of the
Aquamist... because it is already ready for these steps

You might occour a control system like the one I've used to my first engine... if you'll agree to make these steps should contact Richard L and ask him to prepare a control system like the one he prepared for the Lombardini in Italy... tell him I told you and he will understand, I suppose. :roll: :wink:

[the-dubster]

Slight correction, the 50/50 mix of water meth is not good for diesel applications. Richard L has done tests and found that as little as 20% Methanol in water can cause detonation - he recommends a safer limit of 12.5% meth to water - (not sure if this just applies to turbo applications though, due to the higher compression causing detonation - best to check with the man first) see the '306TD' thread under this Diesel Index.

One other thing, unless i'm very much mistaken, due to the lack of a throttle plate, diesels don't run any noticeable vacuum in the inlet manifold - hence the requirement for a seperate brake servo vacuum pump (and seperate vacuum pump if you're daft enough to think a turbo diesel needs a 'Dump Valve').

the-dubster

[Prometeus]

Hi dub...

I don't really know the preparation of the peugeot. I'll look in the forum.

We have just finished an Alfa GT 1.9 Mjet bringing it to 207 HP starting from 150 HP and no problems in 50/50 mixture. The car is very very very :twisted: ... I drove it for few miles... I did not want to get down from that I simply was desiring to take it my home :D

I'll look... but it might also depend on which kind of engine are u talking about. Fiat engines have more ability in resisting to methanol. Otherwise our WI is working only in acceleration and not in cruising. This avoid the trouble of having more water than diesel in the engine while it is working.

[the-dubster]

As i'm just pointing to to information contained in another part of the forum and not quoting from personal experience I will bow to your greater knowledge and experience.

If above 12.5% WILL work you can just bet I'm gonna try it :twisted:

Incidentally, having more water than diesel should also not be a problem as diesels can run with up to 300% water to fuel (same source as the previous 20% methanol detonation discussion). Now that's a LOT of water - or to put it another way - a LOT of potential boost.

cheers

Andy 'the-dubster'

[Prometeus]

Hi dubster,

I saw the forum about the peugeot. Yes the way Richard said is the correct one... but the implantation system we use is ratherly correct as the one of Richard.

I did some tests with him... it is a math operation.

He uses 100% injection power with M at 12.5%

We're using 40% maximum power injection with M at 50%

It is quite same matematically... the difference stands in the reaction of the car...

By our way (may call it Italian Style :lol: ) you will have less power (about 8% less than Richard way) but in very fastest time.

By the way of Richard (may call it English Style :roll: ) you will have more power with your car but in a little more time.

Regards

[Prometeus]

Same in football :D

Milan scored 3 goals at first... but Liverpool brought the cup home :D

[the-dubster]

Thanks for clearing that up Prometeus, I've currently got a thread running here - the DIY WI thread, and am struggling to find a low cost high pressure pump. Maybe your way will suit me. If you could let me know what pressure you are running your pumps at in the other thread (as opposed to me cluttering this one up with stuff about my peugeot) and what nozzles you use - it would be great.

Thanks

Andy

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread sideshow bob :oops:

[sideshowbob]

There is - or there is supposed to be a throttle plate in the transit engine. A previous owner has seen fit to remove it and disconect the exhaust recirculation valve. So there should be at some stage a vacuum in the manifold.

On a slightly difrent track - has anyone ever tried fitting a second injector in the head of a diesel, to inject water directly and do away with the cooling jacket?
I thought of using a thermostat to decide which injector to fire - either fuel or water depending on temperature. Cooling the engine internaly.

[Prometeus]

It's a very hard work to do... don't know if should be useful... better to the air inflow system... soon between the filter and the engine... that should solve troubles to you once at all...

Otherwise if you're looking to inject water directly to the head petrol companies have already done it by producing a fuel based on 13% water and 87% diesel.

The temperature to start inecting water is at approximatively from 105? to 120? it depends on the type of engine. When the engine reach these temperatures the WI can properly start.

here are some datas about the Lombardini...

WITHOUT WI

34 HP and 383 NOx PPM = 11.26 PPM per HP

WITH WI

46 HP and 220 NOx PPM = 4.78 PPM per HP

NON OFFICIAL DATAS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers

[bonte]

Prometeus, cpuld you give me some mre info?

I was searching at this forum after I heard of wtaer injection in diesel cars. There seems to be an 150hp AR 156 (standard 150hp) with now 250hp :shock:

Can you explain me somne more? What setup are yoy using? What parts are used? Which boostcontroller? Do you have a larger intercooler? Maybe water cooled? At hoz much is yout turbo pressure? How much cfm water do you inject?

Do you sell it? Do you work at a tuning company? You can do my car? Any price indication for the different setups?

I am asking this for my 156 2.4SW 150hp. Greetings and thanks :cool:

[Prometeus]

Can you explain me somne more? Yes I can :lol: I hope :shock:

What setup are yoy using? normal car setup for "hardware", tuned in electronics

What parts are used? Standard Alfa, Aquamist and ECU tunings...

Which boostcontroller? Standard Alfa

Do you have a larger intercooler? No mechanical changings, just implementation with WI System

Maybe water cooled? of Course

At hoz much is your turbo pressure? 1.70 bar

How much cfm water do you inject? Usually Ratio 1:1 DIESEL/WATER

Do you sell it? Yes sometimes :D

Do you work at a tuning company? not properly sometimes tuning companies are working for me by now

You can do my car? May be it is possible... but I live in Italy...

Any price indication for the different setups? I'm used to follow the prices of the Aquamist List... right those placed in the site.

I am asking this for my 156 2.4SW 150hp. Greetings and thanks

Yes it is possible to bring out much more power... making a goooood job we'd be able to reach easily about 220 Hp without modifications on the engine so no larger intercooler or anything similar...

Regards

[bonte]

Hi Prometeus,

thanks for the info.