760whp skyline with direct port water injection (corrected)

[Richard L]

10.6s quarter on street tires, Skyline R33 is receiving more cooling power.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/1.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/2.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/3.jpg


Preparing jet adaptor on the ports...
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/4.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/5.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/6.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/7.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/8.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/9.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/10.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/11.jpg

[Richard L]

more photos

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/15.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/16.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/17.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/18.jpg

Tank will last ten runs of 10s quarters.

[EvoTio]

Wow, that is one nice set up!

[DuMaurier 7]

Richard , what are the hoses connecting to under the "GT ART" logo and whats the see through plastic box next to the pumps :?:

[turbojack]

MY guess: Under the GT ART logo would be water flow sensors, and the see thru box would be seperate fuse panel/box for the WI system.


Richard this is a really neat system/setup, congrats to the owner. Thats a FIA2 behind the pumps correct. Is there a schematic for this setup it would be interesting to see how its designed and how the wiring is done with the two pumps. Two pumps were used because the system is in the trunk? It looks like both pumps feed into a tee that feeds a 30cc accumulator and then outputs to a 6mm line, this line runs to the front and then splits into the two flow sensors, then one outputs to a four way and the other to a Y fitting, then to the jets? What triggers injection? Sorry for the questions, but this looks pretty neat and I'm just curious about how it works.

[Richard L]

MY guess: Under the GT ART logo would be water flow sensors, and the see thru box would be seperate fuse panel/box for the WI system.


Richard this is a really neat system/setup, congrats to the owner. Thats a FIA2 behind the pumps correct. Is there a schematic for this setup it would be interesting to see how its designed and how the wiring is done with the two pumps. Two pumps were used because the system is in the trunk? It looks like both pumps feed into a tee that feeds a 30cc accumulator and then outputs to a 6mm line, this line runs to the front and then splits into the two flow sensors, then one outputs to a four way and the other to a Y fitting, then to the jets? What triggers injection? Sorry for the questions, but this looks pretty neat and I'm just curious about how it works.


You are perfectly correct, the arragement is exactly as you have mentioned. The system was hurrly built up in a few hours to allow the engine to gain a few more horses for a race. I didn't have timing to finished it before it was whipped off my hands by an impatient courier.

An HSV will replace the two on/off solenoid in the front of the car this week. The two solenoids are triggered by the ECU - programmed to injection from 6000 RPM on and above a certain boost and throttle angle.

The owner has all the details but I forgot the exact procedure. IT managed to gain some 70- horses and got him running 10.6s quarter all day on street tyres on a very hot day (we call 32C a very hot day in England).

By the way, thanks very much for the womderful pictures (nice looking car by the way), I will resize them and post them to the car-specific thread.

[Richard L]

Richard , what are the hoses connecting to under the "GT ART" logo and whats the see through plastic box next to the pumps :?:

The purple parts are just twin solenoid valves (on/off).


http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/twin-valve.jpg

[TurboTuning]

Hi Richard,

very nice installation! How much water are you injecting in each port?
Which mixture are you using?

Best regards,

Bodo
http://www.turbotuning.net

[Richard L]

Hello Bodo,

I will pass on your nice comment to the man responsible for the installation.

At present the company doesn't want this information to be known to the public. The mixture will be "green" - some special mix that they are going to sell on as a a pre-mix.

We have the similar situation when Snow performance refused to tell one of our user what mix is in their Nitrobased mix so that I can test the Aquamist pump's seal here. Typical commercial interest gone a bit overboard.

[Richard L]

A pair of precooler is now ready to be fitted to the skyline, will report on the results.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/precooler/31.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/precooler/32.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/precooler/33.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/precooler/34.jpg

Those look pretty interesting.......were they hard to make? I was thinking about doing pre-turbo injection after I'm done with the WI install....if these work well please inform the fabricator I'm interested in one these.

[Forum Admin]

They are not too difficult to make once the machine is set up. Need to make a cad cam drawing first. It is quite a long drawn out affair in both cad-cam and actual machining.

[Will_emt]

Awesome! :D
Any risk of compressor wheel abrasion using these jet locations? What size jet will this use?

[Richard L]

As the main panel is updated with FIA2 and HSV, the twin valve is now used to direct the water to perform two tasks, pre-turbo and port water injection. The water flow is progressive with fuel's DC or a third party WI map.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/twin-valve-text.jpg

[Richard L]

The HSV is now in place to manage water flow to the pre-turbo and port injection valves (picture above).

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/23m.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/24.jpg

[Joel]

Why use the machined inserts to place the jets centrally in the turbo intakes, wouldnt it work equally well to inject at 90deg to the airflow into the compressors ?

[Richard L]

You may need to read this threads to find out the reasom why - it is a long story.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=267&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

May require signing in, worth the trouble, tons of information there.

[DuMaurier 7]

As the main panel is updated with FIA2 and HSV, the twin valve is now used to direct the water to perform two tasks, pre-turbo and port water injection. The water flow is progressive with fuel's DC or a third party WI map.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/twin-valve-text.jpg


My set up is similar , but I have both HSV's , down stream each of the solenoids , so that they dont see my ystem pressure all of the time.

[DuMaurier 7]

A pair of precooler is now ready to be fitted to the skyline, will report on the results.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/precooler/31.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/precooler/32.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/precooler/33.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/precooler/34.jpg


I am very much interested in a pair of these too , what size are they , 3 " ??

[Richard L]

The size is 2.75" , but it can be rescales before machining. The dseign of the precooler bracket is not yet finalised - it wil depend on the out come of the next few days,

[Richard L]

As the main panel is updated with FIA2 and HSV, the twin valve is now used to direct the water to perform two tasks, pre-turbo and port water injection. The water flow is progressive with fuel's DC or a third party WI map.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/twin-valve-text.jpg


My set up is similar , but I have both HSV's , down stream each of the solenoids , so that they dont see my ystem pressure all of the time.

I would stick with HSV, we have found the valve seal is swelling up on the viton seals of those valves (possibily due to nitromethane). We have change those valves to HSV (EPDM seals).

The Purple valves are designed for air (bleed valve usage).

[Richard L]

A few more pictures of the skyline - just keeping things up to date.

A few more changes before the Saturday race - dynoing this week.


A close up picture of the battle-harden turbo before pre-turbo injection:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/30.jpg

pre-cooler brackets in place:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/32.jpg

Purple valves are replaced by HSV (due to seal swelling):
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/33.jpg

Picture taken above of the equal-length port injection haose with checkvalve:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/34.jpg

A close-up version of the 1:4 splitter:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/35.jpg

pre-turbo delivery hose via the air filter:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/37.jpg

Dash switches to select WI operating mode.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/39.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/40.jpg


View of the re-located twin pump cluster (temporary for race):

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/41.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/42.jpg


More to follow soon...

[AndrewC]

Those pre-compressor jets are far closer than I had imagined they would be, surely at high airflows most of the water will be kept close to the center of the compressor, or is that the point?

I like the way the hoses are fed through the filter aswell - that's 1 benefit of HKS mushroom filters I guess.

Andrew...

[Richard L]

Those pre-compressor jets are far closer than I had imagined they would be, surely at high airflows most of the water will be kept close to the center of the compressor, or is that the point?

I like the way the hoses are fed through the filter aswell - that's 1 benefit of HKS mushroom filters I guess.

Andrew...

Yes, the idea was not to touch the outer section of compressor blade.

[Richard L]

After a hectic weekend, I have finally have a moment to scan the dyno chart of the dyno test on Skyline. The dyno plot was done on the afternoon before race.
Due to race regulation on the class, we could only run "pump fuel" so we filled the car up texico Super-unleaded -98 ron, straight fromn the pump.

We managed to get about 600 whp without any water, you can see the chart below (base.jpg):
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/base.jpg

The next thing we did was switch in the pre-turbo injection, a 0.3mm jet was placed in front of each trubo.
We immediate see the change of a/f ratio at 4250rpm - where the water is activated - the water rate
is proportional to the fuel injector's duty cycle. (system2d). 100% water was used.
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/pre-turbo.jpg


Probably need someone to chime in to give some suggestion as to what was happening. At the sametime, a slightest knock was registered.
Here is a superimposed image of base (faint orange) + Pre-turbo only (full colour)
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/pre-turbo+base.jpg



I will resize the others as soon as I have time:
1) port injection only chart
2) pre-turbo+port injection.
3) superimposed - chart of the above (two off)
4) pre-turbo+ Port injection with 50% methanol
5) superimosed of the above against base

Richard

[Greenv8s]

Fascinating, and I'm looking forward to the diagnosis from the experts.

To the untrained eye it looks as if the biggest difference is in the reported AFR; is this an indication that the WI is affecting the lambda reading?

It looks as if there is slightly less back pressure at the top end with WI on, in other words less boost for the same torque, this is the sort of effect that was predicted. Personally I'd have hoped for a more dramatic effect, could it be that we are not seeing huge gains here because the turbo is adequately sized in the first place, and because it has an adequate intercooler?

It might be interesting to contrast this with a car that has an undersize turbo?

Also intrigued about the pinking. It's something I've noticed on mine and I have put it down to a lot of upstream evaporation i.e. the cooling effect of the water is being spent increasing charge density rather than suppressing in-cylinder knock.

[Richard L]

The AFR is a strange one.

Just to confirm, the pre-turbo power run was done 20 minutes after the pump-fuel only run. No fuel or ignition trim.

We will be continuing the test in a week or two time - we will go for a bigger pre-turbo jet. I will also take a picture of the compressor wheel.

It has done a few power drag runs last week, achieving 10.591s - 0.1 seconds faster than last year (on race fuel)- the main run with launch control/anti-lag was abandoned after third/forth gear problem.

More drag results in three weeks.

[Richard L]

Here is a better one.


http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/pre-turbo+base2.jpg

[Richard L]

I have just scanned and resized the port injection dyno plot below. This chart was running on "port-injection" only and NO pre-turbo injection.


http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/port-only.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/port+base.jpg

[Richard L]

Here is the last plot of the evening. When we run 50% methanol + some timing and fuel trim, the gain is more noticeable - still using the same jet sizes - Port +Pre-turbo. I think we have gained aother 33 horsepower. See the gain as soon as the injection starts. We pulled fuel to to run at .76 afr, but will work towards 0.8 and add 6 degress advance on timing. Will work out the stochiometeric value mixture before the next test.

The previous race fuel without WI yield 720whp. We hope to reach that target on the next session on pump fuel only.

Next: We will also move on to bigger jets as time permits very soon - we will also add a small amount of nitromethane to improve flame speed, at present, the timing is approachng the race fuel (a bit slow for 8K+ engine). Engine have to do more negative work if the timing is too advanced.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/all+methanol.jpg

[Richard L]

Here is a summery:

All on pump fuel (Texico 98 -Ron)
NO WI: 610whp
PRE-TURBO: 613WHP (not optimised)
POST-TURBO: 619WHP (not optimised)
PRE+POS+METHANOL: 643WHP (roughly optimised -time constraint)

Next test - bigger pre-turbo jets.

[Richard L]

The Skyline has won the most prestigious award yesterday at Santa Pod Raceway yesterday.

The Japshow trophy brought all the top Japanese Car tuners in UK to compete in this year's final run. Intense qualifying rounds and elimination has caused a few fatalities. Brief list of line-up includes the famous Norris's awesome Evo, Alaskan's "Roger Clark tuned" Subaru, Supras and Skylines.

The final honour went to Gary Passingham's skyline who made impecable progress durng the day. His quarter-mile time recorded on the day was 10.7s, 10.5s, 10.22s, 10.078s and finally beating Roger Clark's Nitrous equipped Scooby by 1/400th of a second, clocked at 10.20s.

Here is a couple of pictures to celabrate his momentous win against all the top Japcar tuners in UK.


http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/japshow1.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/japshow.jpg

We will continue to help devloping this car on the water injection front. Just to confirm the a/f ratio we were running was 12:1afr/33 deg. advance.

[turbojack]

Congrats to all the effort and hard work of those involved :D

[Richard L]

Congrats to all the effort and hard work of those involved :D

These people worked all day Saturaday, 7am till 8pm preparing their customer's car that entered the same race on the non-pro class. They continued on their own car until well past 11 pm (including refitting the gearbox and re-tune the car on race gas. We managed to get 765whp and had to stop - knowing there will be 800-900whp equipped cars at the race.

After four hours of sleep (they all live 40 minutes drive away from home), they were back at the workshop at 5.30am and loaded the car onto a trailer and set off to Santapod raceway- 3 hours drive. Only to find out the road to the venue has an one mile long tail-back and took nearly over another hour before entering the gound. One of the them has to drive another skyline to the raceway on their customer requested - imagine dring a car with a straight cut dog box for four hours! I am soy please for them that tou came home with a well deserved trophy.

I was lucky, only ten minutes from home, so I got a good five hours sleep. One other good news, their non-pro class customer has also fullfilled his dream on hitting 10s (10.99s) on his well-under powered skyine :razz: :razz: :razz:

Three 10 second skylines made the show and drove home without any breakage on the day.


Richard
(video on the way)

More about these heros here:
http://www.gtart.co.uk/
http://www.gtr.co.uk/forum/upload/showthread.php?t=43701

[turbojack]

"Three 10 second skylines made the show and drove home without any breakage on the day."

Even more impressive. Must be nice working with some good mechs and racers. I like the bleeding edge and winning just like everybody else...but I also like not breaking things and can understand how much money and effort it takes to try and prevent that. I know these guys must be exhausted....but it seems like theres been a really nice pay off for that work.

Again, very nice, I salute you guys.

[GotH2O]

What is the injection mixture?

[Richard L]

"Three 10 second skylines made the show and drove home without any breakage on the day."

Even more impressive. Must be nice working with some good mechs and racers. I like the bleeding edge and winning just like everybody else...but I also like not breaking things and can understand how much money and effort it takes to try and prevent that. I know these guys must be exhausted....but it seems like theres been a really nice pay off for that work.

Again, very nice, I salute you guys.

Correction, one came with a trailer so it have to go back on a trailer, but could drive home if the trailer broke.

Those guy arrived back home at 11pm, got a bit lost on the return journey but back at work at dawn - I didn't think the adrenalin level has quite subsided.

Richard

[Richard L]

What is the injection mixture?

It was more or less M50/W50. We tried 100% methanol, it was almost impossible to trim the a/f ratio due to too many fuel trim correction factors - we basically ran out of time the night before.

We looked back the dyno plot back in April and the same race fuel only managed 704whp. The car was hovering around mid 10s then. It could have easily gone into the 9s yesterday if the driver was not under pressure in the race condition against another car.


I have made a mistake on the heading of claiming 790whp - will correct very soon. Here is the latest power figures we achieved with about 10-15% of water/methanol.

Pump fuel (98 ron) only .... 610whp
Pump fuel (98 ron) + ~WAI ... 643whp
Race fuel (106) only... 704whp
Race fuel (106) + ~WAI ... 760whp
EGT was kept between 880-890 degC

Will be increasing the w/a/f percentage continue to extract more power in the coming months - race season is now over. We will continue around 50/50 but push up the ratio against fuel. I would like to see the w/f ratio going up to 40%.


Richard

[JohnA]

I saw that car at the Pod, so it was the one used for the precomp nozzle prototypes, eh? :smile:

As for the W/A/F ratio, I've got a SAE paper claiming increasing gains at an excess of 100% :wink:

(might be useful for fire-engines rushing to the scene of a fire, lol....)

[Richard L]

I saw that car at the Pod, so it was the one used for the precomp nozzle prototypes, eh? :smile:

As for the W/A/F ratio, I've got a SAE paper claiming increasing gains at an excess of 100% :wink:

(might be useful for fire-engines rushing to the scene of a fire, lol....)

That was the car that has been featured here - with pre-compressor, port injection, methanol, water, nitro etc. All helps.

According to SAE, we should be able to reach 1500 at the wheels :razz:

The turbos were only rated at 380hp each (at the crank), I think the WI has extended its output beyond 760hp since it made that at the wheels.

I will scan the the "night before" power graph and post it here.

[JohnA]

Richard, regarding the figures you posted earlier on, where they all measured using the optimum ignition timing for each one?

For example, when you got "race fuel + WAI....760bhp" the ignition curve was totally different to that of "Race fuel only" right?

Also did you have any AFR measurements as they appeared on the wideband?

Cheers,

John

[Richard L]

I have managed to scan two race fuel plots but not doing a good job overlaying them - two gear box ratios, but the combined chart does show the effect of adding WIA injection onto race fual. You can see the afr measured on wide band. We would have gone a bit more leaner if we had time.

The timing was up by over 4 degrees and some areas area 6 degress. Not one hint of knock, I am sure we can move more but settled at 33 degrees at peak torque area - need to confirn wirth Gary.

Here is the plots on the night before the race. The bottom layer was plotted in April this year.

Water commenced at ~5400 RPM, boost was 0.2 bar higher at 1.9bar on the final run.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/layer.jpg

[keithmac]

Nice work, some good reading there :D .

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/twin-valve.jpg[/quote]

Hey Richard, how can I get a solenoid like one of these? I need a reliable solenoid that will withstand an approximate 130psi pressure difference. The only one I've found so far was from coolingmist.com.... but it failed and filled my motor with water as well as my crank case.... that was an $120 mistake...

[Richard L]

Hey Richard, how can I get a solenoid like one of these? I need a reliable solenoid that will withstand an approximate 130psi pressure difference. The only one I've found so far was from coolingmist.com.... but it failed and filled my motor with water as well as my crank case.... that was an $120 mistake...

The indicated valve can withstand a steady prssure of 120psi but only suitable for use with methanol or water. The failure of the coolmist valve may be due to pressure spike beyond 130psi. Check if you are feeding your pressurised water into the correct port - it might still be usable.

Richard

[fperra]

As the main panel is updated with FIA2 and HSV, the twin valve is now used to direct the water to perform two tasks, pre-turbo and port water injection. The water flow is progressive with fuel's DC or a third party WI map.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/gtart/twin-valve-text.jpg


My set up is similar , but I have both HSV's , down stream each of the solenoids , so that they dont see my ystem pressure all of the time.

I would stick with HSV, we have found the valve seal is swelling up on the viton seals of those valves (possibily due to nitromethane). We have change those valves to HSV (EPDM seals).

The Purple valves are designed for air (bleed valve usage).

Richard, what is the purpose of these two HS valves? Since the HSV mounted by the pumps is controlling the flow, these seem redundant.

[Richard L]

The two purple valves are not very high speed, takes 5-8ms to open. They are there to split the metered water from the HSV valve (installed in the trunk) into two separate locations.

The user can now select:

1) port only
2) pre-turbo
3) both

[fperra]

From a prior post, I see that the purple valves have been replaced with HSV's. I guess they are just being used as switches to direct where the water/meth flows to. Is this correct?

[Richard L]

yes, you are 100% correct. The purple valves are not fast enough for PWM usage.