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View Full Version : Astra Coupe Turbo 273bhp, but 25bhp less power with WI.


MikeWarner
28-11-2005, 11:34 PM
Hi. I have a Mk4 Astra Coupe Turbo running 273bhp and 297lb.ft torque.

When I was on the rollers a few weeks back, we tried the car with and without WI (ERL 1s kit) and I lost around 25 to 30bhp at the top end of the revs. Lower revs seemed less effected, but as the revs rose, the losses increased.

I am running a single 0.5mm jet after the IC and I was running off standard washer fluid. The car over-boosts to 19.5psi and holds around 16psi.

If anyone can give me some advice on getting the most from the WI it would be much appreciated. Please note the car has not been mapped for WI and it is unlikely the I will do this in the future.

Here is the current power graph without WI. Cheers.
http://www.migweb.co.uk/gallery/data/516/medium/CS4.jpg

Richard L
29-11-2005, 12:53 PM
Hello Mike,

Thanks for posting your set up and hope that ywe can go forward from here and taking your car beyond 300 brakes.

I am not familiar with the Astra but as you are not too far away, I am willing to learn soemthineg from it and hope to be able help you tuning it.

I always hope a few Astra owners herecan chime in and help. Loosing 30 horses is no fun.

Richard

MikeWarner
29-11-2005, 09:36 PM
Thanks Richard. By the way, today I was visiting some Southern Water sites in Hampshire and I saw a couple of your ERL power supplier in some of the telemetry boxes. :)

I should be down lunchtime on Friday. If you could be around it would be great. I can't stay much more than half an hour though.

Richard L
29-11-2005, 09:50 PM
Thisis interesting, I didn;t realise we supply Power Supply Unit to Southern water authority.

Tell me the ETA on Friday so I make sure I am at the office to meet you.

Richard

MikeWarner
30-11-2005, 01:04 AM
Hi Richard. I'll be there for 12:15pm on Friday.

I took this photo of the power supply, it says ERL on it, so I assume it must be one of yours.
http://www.migweb.co.uk/temp/erl.jpg

Richard L
30-11-2005, 01:33 AM
Yes it is - Not using the un-interrupible function??? I will sue the company if my water is not pure during power cut periods.
:lol: :lol: :lol:


Hi Richard. I'll be there for 12:15pm on Friday.

I took this photo of the power supply, it says ERL on it, so I assume it must be one of yours.

MikeWarner
30-11-2005, 06:31 PM
Anyone?

JohnA
30-11-2005, 07:12 PM
Hi Mike

I suspect that you might be injecting too much, too early.

You don't say at what boost pressure your WI is activated.
Also what do you inject? is it straight water?
Have you got a picture of the nozzle setup?

If your car is running rich while the WI operates, then it's normal to lose power, in my experience.

MikeWarner
01-12-2005, 12:03 AM
No photo, but it is mounted right after the IC and before a long straight section. The spary comes in at about 12 psi. I will be trying a 0.3mm jet soon.

Richard L
01-12-2005, 12:12 AM
One Friday, I see what I can do in 30 minutes to get to know the car a bit more.

I think timing and fuel adjustment is the key to your WI success. Just need to find a way to modify them without a special tool.

Possibly delve ino ther coolant sens0r and air temperture sensor and MAF sensor, the management is only as intelligent as the sensors.



Richard

JohnA
01-12-2005, 01:35 PM
No photo, but it is mounted right after the IC and before a long straight section. The spary comes in at about 12 psi. I will be trying a 0.3mm jet soon.
I'd try the 0.4mm jet activated at 16psi. See how that goes.

Also if the AFRs at 16psi are way richer than 12:1 it will be hurting power.
You need to monitor that as well. 10-20% methanol helps reduce the surface tension of the water. Make sure you only use distilled water and pure methanol in the mix. Nothing else.

MikeWarner
01-12-2005, 05:10 PM
Thanks John.

Richard - I'll be there at the time above, but should be able to stay much longer now if required.

ashtal
01-12-2005, 09:20 PM
I will watch this which much intresst as i still need to fit mine. Is you jet before or after the inlet temp sensor ?

MikeWarner
01-12-2005, 09:32 PM
Before - I have the Courtenay IC which has a long alloy pipe from the IC outlet. Also, I have bought the IC to plenum pipe from an Astra VXR which relocates this sensor further up tpwards the plenum - this is supposed to give better readings.

ashtal
01-12-2005, 11:07 PM
Can you let me know of what is your concluesion is after you have had a look on friday. cheers.

MikeWarner
02-12-2005, 10:22 PM
Had a good time at ERL today - many thanks Richard.

Richard plans to make an interface to go on the air flow meter signal wire which will be set to lean the mixture slightly when the WI is running. Should be interesting to see if it works. I confirmed with Courtenay Sport this evening that the map I have does go rich at the top end for extra cooling and knock resistence - so leaning it off and using WI may give good results.

ashtal
03-12-2005, 10:29 AM
When do you plan to do this ?

Richard L
03-12-2005, 03:08 PM
When do you plan to do this ?

I will be the responsible to making things happen by designing the interface electronics to modified the MAF sensor. It will be a time well worth spending if the car can repond to the modification.

I have look at the car careful on Friday when Mike came. I am thinking of two other possibilities to trimming ignition and fuel, but MAF sensor seemed to be the obvious, if anyone have any suggestion, please chime in to help.

1) MAF sensor. MY ASSUMPTIOS: if the upper portion of air flow signal (on boost) can be scaled down so the fuel will be trimmed by the ECU. Since the engine is seeing lighter load, it might automatically put some timing advance. Plausible?

2) Air temperature sensor MY ASSUMPTIONS: if engine is seeing hotter air, it will trim fuel but it might also be retarding timing (not good). Suggestion?

3) Engine Coolant Sensor MY ASSUMPTIONS: when engine sees higher than normal coolant temperature, it should reduce fuel, but will it retard timing also?


Mike, I have a question. Have you ECU been reprogrammed? If so, what modifications was done? It might affect my work on your car. If a data looging facility is available, it will make life a great deal simplier.

WORK DONE TO DATE:
I have spliced in a from the MAF sensor to the cockpit so Mike can read the maximum MAF sensor voltage.

At idle the sensor reads 1.2-1.4V and increase to nearly 3V when throttle is blipped. Thas is what I have time for on Friday. Will update when more work is being done.

Richard

MikeWarner
04-12-2005, 02:08 AM
Richard, I have yet to test the voltage range. The ECU has been reprogramed and I confirmed with Courtenay Sport that the engine does run richer at the top end - but not overly so.

Today I re-disconnected the WI as the higher revs felt very flat and lifeless. I'll leave it off until will have a chance to play with it again.

I'm just trying to work out if it is better to put the jet before or after the air inlet temp sensor. If it is after, the inlet temp would be cooler than the sensor thinks. Would this not also lean off the mixture? Could be worth a try. Also, I heard WI kills these sensors, so could be worth doing just to save damaging it (about ?70 a throw).

It makes sense that fooling the ECU into thinking there is less air flow would reduce fuel and advance ignition - although I will try to confirm the latter.

Anyone know what a target lambda should be at the top end when running WI? Courtenay aim for around 0.78, but this is running rich. The WI will take the place of the extra fuel, so what should we aim for? 0.8?

Richard L
04-12-2005, 01:13 PM
Since the air temperature sensor is placed after the water spray, the cooling effect from the additional methanol will make the ECU think the air is much colder than this it. I would tend to re-position the sensor before the jet and perhaps you will notice a difference.

By working through one thing at a time, we can then have more consistant results. I think repositioning the ait temp/MAP sensor is the next thing to alter before anything else such as the MAF.

We normally aim for a lambda valve of 0.86 or 12.5:1 afr. Some engine can run lean and some reich, we shall see on your car. At prresent ypor afr is about 11.3 (0.78L) according to courtenays.

RECAP:
We have reduce the jet size form 0.5 to 0.4mm and added 25% methanol to water.
CONCLUSION:
The engine seemed to run flat and lifeless, it could be the extra cooling effect of methanol at lower air tamperature range as the methanol freezes at -90 degC and boil at 70 degC.

A BMW increased the methanol concentration from 25% to 50% and experience misfire - could be the reason for loss of performance.


Richard

Richard L
04-12-2005, 04:29 PM
I forgot, if the air temperature sensor is seeing lower temperatures, it will add more fuel?

Richard

ashtal
04-12-2005, 05:31 PM
I know gelf has his jets in the same positoion as mike. Did he have any problems ? Mind you he is running a 2d setup !

If the water is injected before the temp sensor surely the engine is getting cooler air and leans the mixture out and advances the timing ?

What mixture of water / methnol is being run in mikes car ?

Porschetuner
04-12-2005, 07:05 PM
Hi,
I`m new in the forum. Searched for "Temp.Sensor" and found this thread.
We did an installation of the 2D system at a Porsche 933 twin-turbo engine with KKK24/26 Turbochargers and 540 BHB w/o WI system.
After we installed the system we some problems at the point of activation of the water-jet. Something like stucking accures.
We installed the water nozzle directly opposite of the temp-sensor inside of the intercooler approx. 15 cm in front of the butterfly. We think, that the spray on the temp-sensor will be the reason for this behavior. The A/F mixture is to rich for the reason of the "goiing more rich and ign. advance effect" of the ECU.
For better investigation of this problem we will install a complete Datalogging/AFR Displaying unit in next days. Also we want to install a second temp-sensor in the intake manifold after the throttle-body. So we can compare the readings of the original sensor (which affect the ECU injection signal ! ) with the real intake temperature of the air.

I think, that we need to measure the real intake temperature of the air at the relevant input signal sensor. Richard, you are right ! The closer the waternozzle to the temp sensor the more the readings will go down. The sensor is directly placed in the water/air stream and it could be possible that due to a condensation effect of the water the readings are not realistic. Fact is, that the injection time is going up and that means that the ignition behavior of the A/F mixture is dropping so that some sort of stucking is possible.
Next week we will do the same installtion at a Porsche 996 twin-turbo.
Will keep you informed !


rgds
Thomas

Richard L
04-12-2005, 07:15 PM
Thomas,

Thanks for the input.

I am suspect this might be the case, the Astra was loosing so much power that water along can not be held responible expecially the water jet has been reduce to 0.4mm from 0.5mm. A 40cc/min flow reduction.

Mike is experience the same power drop effect.

Even the air temperature is quite low in England (8 to 9C), the methanol is still evaporating and if it hiots the temperature sensorm it will supercool the sensor and make the car runs too rich.

I will wait for Mike's comment , if he is willing to relocate the sensor before the water spray so it won't get sprayed.

Richard L
04-12-2005, 07:18 PM
I know gelf has his jets in the same positoion as mike. Did he have any problems ? Mind you he is running a 2d setup !

If the water is injected before the temp sensor surely the engine is getting cooler air and leans the mixture out and advances the timing ?

What mixture of water / methnol is being run in mikes car ?

I think the engine will do the opposite, if the air is colder, it should increase fuel and not leaning it.

MikeWarner
04-12-2005, 10:11 PM
Richard. I relocate the jet after the sensor. I'll try to do this soon. I think I have a blank somewhere for the old jet position.

PuntoRex
05-12-2005, 07:21 AM
Be cautious about triming the MAF signal.

Some ECU might 'work around' the changed signal & keep the a/f constant by the O2 sensor feedback. I suspect, it does so even in open loop mode...

I've tried triming the MAF signal by more than 20% of the voltage, but the ECU eventually adapted to it & kept the engine running in the original condition. All I've done to the MAF signal seems in vain.

Later I tried to trim the O2 sensor signal, by very small steps, then it worked. So I guess in this case, the O2 sensor signal is in a higher priority than the MAF in fueling control. Interceptor has its own limitation in such cases.

This was my own experience with Bosch Motronic ECU. It might be varied a lot in different cars. For your reference.

Richard L
05-12-2005, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the input, I would only trim the region where water injecting is activated.

I am not sure if the Astra uses a wideband or not, but I don;t think I will go anywhere near the closed-loop region. That was my plan anyway.

I will trim the fuel's duty cycle as the last option, seemed more complicated way but can be done within our ability.

MikeWarner
05-12-2005, 10:51 AM
I have been told previously that the lamba doesn't have a clue what is going on at higher revs as it isn't quick enough to react.

PuntoRex
05-12-2005, 11:08 AM
hmm....

As I see in my homebrewed O2 signal display, in the mid-high rpm range, the up-down voltage sweeping is pretty quick. At 4500rpm or slightly above, if throttle input is small, the engine is still in close loop. At this stage, the voltage is bumping up & down quickly. If the padel is depressed, the signal will go high & stay. I think the reaction is quick enough.

If the exhaut gas monitoring-feedback system is too slow, how can it catch up with changing load & keep the a/f right?

Richard L
07-12-2005, 12:23 AM
I remembered you making a bar graph unit on your dash, nicely made unit. I wonder if you have solved the LM3914 overloading issue by reduing the drive current to the LEDS.

I think it will be useful for Mike to have one of those to monitor his lambda values as we start to modified his MAF signals. Care to share the circuit?

Richard


hmm....

As I see in my homebrewed O2 signal display, in the mid-high rpm range, the up-down voltage sweeping is pretty quick. At 4500rpm or slightly above, if throttle input is small, the engine is still in close loop. At this stage, the voltage is bumping up & down quickly. If the padel is depressed, the signal will go high & stay. I think the reaction is quick enough.

If the exhaut gas monitoring-feedback system is too slow, how can it catch up with changing load & keep the a/f right?

PuntoRex
07-12-2005, 02:58 AM
Circuit diagrams:

http://www.taunus-biker.de/~mdvp/Lambda/Lambda.html

http://www.fabrio.it/puntogt/tecnica/lambda.htm

They are not in English, but supposedly the diagrams should be easily understood.


LM3914's datasheet:

http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM3914.pdf

About the LED current, haha, I fried some chips. I like them bright :twisted: Right now I attach a heatsink on it. Hope it helps...

JohnA
07-12-2005, 11:46 AM
Guys, these are all displays of the narrowband signal.
Quite useless at the sort of revs/load we're talking here.

Richard, of the three signals you mention I'd only fudge the AFM a bit (only at revs/loads where it runs open loop ofcourse!)
In fact I'm doing this on the supra, gaining an extra 5% power (at a minimum)

I'd avoid fudging the CTS signal because of the risk that the ECU decides to swap maps altogether. Not good.

Richard L
07-12-2005, 09:54 PM
narrow band can be used for reference - but better to run on the rich side of 14.5 afr than leaner. It is quite possible to tune to 14.5afr and than richen it up a little.

Although the curve is non-linear, we can see voltage variation between 12.5 to 14.5. I agreed, is not ideal.

Richard




Guys, these are all displays of the narrowband signal.
Quite useless at the sort of revs/load we're talking here.

Richard, of the three signals you mention I'd only fudge the AFM a bit (only at revs/loads where it runs open loop ofcourse!)
In fact I'm doing this on the supra, gaining an extra 5% power (at a minimum)

I'd avoid fudging the CTS signal because of the risk that the ECU decides to swap maps altogether. Not good.

K3FUS
09-12-2005, 05:19 PM
Mike

How is your jet held in the air pipe? Mine was in an in pipe "gromit" and because it did not seal I had less BHP but no change in LBft due to the air loss.

I'm about to use my WI to spray the cooler (I now have the same one as you and the same turbo and map). I know ho effective spraying the cooler is as I have seen it on Courtenay's RR ( reduction of about 20 deg C at 6k rpm).

MikeWarner
09-12-2005, 06:29 PM
Hi mate. Now you are running pretty much the same spec as me, do you also have the dip in power like me?

Re. the jet gitting, I had a section of alloy welded onto the pipe (thanks dad), then drilled and tapped that - it does seal, no worries there. The loss in power can be seen by turning the system on and off, so it is nothing to do with bad installation.

I have the bits to plumb in a second jet, which I will do once these existing issues are rectified. I will most likely spray onto the IC too.

As above, I'll be moving the primary jet to a point after the inlet temp sensor and Richard will be working on "fudging" the AFM signal.

K3FUS
10-12-2005, 06:40 PM
Mike

Only fitted the FMIC Thursday so not run the car on the RR yet.

Speaking of the RR, I know that spraying the I/C reduced my inlet temp from 65 to 37 deg C with my SMIC, this is why I am taking the alternate route.

I would not recommend altering the AMM reading, but if Richard thinks it will help then go for it.

MikeWarner
13-12-2005, 07:47 PM
Richard, sorry about the delay, but I found my mulitmeter and I can now report of the AFM voltages.

At idle the car sits at an AFM volage of 1.37. When booting the car, the upper limit I saw was 4.93v, so very close to the maximum 5v.

I hope this helps.

Oh, any chance I could pop up at some point please to reposition the jet as I don't have the tools available to do this? Basically all that needs doing is blocking the current location with a blank, and drilling a tapping a plastic pipe the other side of the temp sensor.

ashtal
13-12-2005, 08:52 PM
Has there been anyone with a sucessful 1s kit on an astra turbo or any z20let ? I who of a fair few people who have WI on there car but no reals gains ! Richard from a turbo car running around 250 - 270bhp Should you see much improvement in bhp / torque with an 1s kit ?

Richard L
13-12-2005, 09:06 PM
The MAF sensor voltage is goodto be played with.

No problem, which day do you have in mind?
I cannot do Wednesday. Thursday or Friday is OK.

Richard


Richard, sorry about the delay, but I found my mulitmeter and I can now report of the AFM voltages.

At idle the car sits at an AFM volage of 1.37. When booting the car, the upper limit I saw was 4.93v, so very close to the maximum 5v.

I hope this helps.

Oh, any chance I could pop up at some point please to reposition the jet as I don't have the tools available to do this? Basically all that needs doing is blocking the current location with a blank, and drilling a tapping a plastic pipe the other side of the temp sensor.

K3FUS
13-12-2005, 09:06 PM
Has there been anyone with a sucessful 1s kit on an astra turbo or any z20let ? I who of a fair few people who have WI on there car but no reals gains ! Richard from a turbo car running around 250 - 270bhp Should you see much improvement in bhp / torque with an 1s kit ?

:sad:

Richard L
13-12-2005, 09:10 PM
I wouldn't expect a great deal of gain in winter without tuning. Water's main work is cooling and if there are little cooling to be do , it will have to induce soem heat ( Boost, leaning fuel etc) to get the benifits - In summer, it will be a different story.

Richard

Has there been anyone with a sucessful 1s kit on an astra turbo or any z20let ? I who of a fair few people who have WI on there car but no reals gains ! Richard from a turbo car running around 250 - 270bhp Should you see much improvement in bhp / torque with an 1s kit ?

:sad:

MikeWarner
13-12-2005, 09:40 PM
Friday is good for me, not sure what time yet though. I'll let you know.

Richard L
13-12-2005, 09:42 PM
Great, just post the time here.

Richard

Friday is good for me, not sure what time yet though. I'll let you know.

neil
14-12-2005, 12:21 AM
i can report that wi does help in piston cooling as i have proven this down at courtenays on there rollers(ask jon) i have a jet in the throttle body and i am using a 75/25 meth/wat mix,we did a run without wi on and the ecu cut the timing due to the heat soak but with wi on the ecu did not cut the timing at all so it does help keep temp down so in a way it is a gain in safety and peace of mind that ur engine is running more cooler so there is less chance of pinking at higher rpm. :D. i am running two s1 kits one for piston cooling and one for charged air cooling(switch off at mo as dont need it up here in a very cold aberdeen lol) i also have a custom made water tank for the charged air cooling only,

http://img499.imageshack.us/img499/9073/270920050014oc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

MikeWarner
14-12-2005, 10:35 AM
Neil, so your jet is after the induction temp sensor. It is interesting to know that you had a gain by doing it this way. This is what we plan to do on Friday, hopefully I will be able to feel a difference between before and after the inlet temp sensor.

Richard - how does 9:30am Friday sound to you?

Richard L
14-12-2005, 10:48 AM
9.30 am is fine, I will be there. How much time do you have?

Richard

MikeWarner
14-12-2005, 11:33 AM
As much as you need as I have the whole day off. :)

Richard L
14-12-2005, 11:40 AM
As much as you need as I have the whole day off. :)

Wondeful - we can try a few others things as well.

MikeWarner
14-12-2005, 12:12 PM
Sounds interesting. :D

I look forward to it.

MikeWarner
14-12-2005, 12:18 PM
Oh, I just spoke to Courtenay and the target lambda on my setup is 0.8, not 0.78 as stated previously in this thread.

K3FUS
14-12-2005, 01:02 PM
Please let us know how you get on....

ashtal
14-12-2005, 06:46 PM
Please let us know how you get on....

Ditto :wink:

MikeWarner
16-12-2005, 07:02 PM
Richard, the car feels better than it was with WI before. I'll have to drive it a bit more to work out if it feel better or worse than no WI at all, I'll l et you know in a few days. First impressions are pretty good though.

Thanks for today, always interesting when I pay you a visit. :D

Richard L
16-12-2005, 07:51 PM
Mike,

Sounds encouraging, I must admit that I am surpised by the change so far. You will probably post more impression as you drive the car more.

You can actually make yourself a WI on/off switch by the blue led we installed today. Just short across the led will have the same effect as "shutting off" thr WI. You can do the switching whilst on boost (watch the road !!!), this way you can feel the change more readily.

I will post a few pictures of the re-located water jet later.

Richard

MikeWarner
16-12-2005, 09:13 PM
Ah - good idea. I'll wire that in this weekend. :) My photos were not great, so I thought I'd wait for yours instead of posting mine.

Richard L
18-12-2005, 12:38 AM
I have just re-sized this picture of the relocated jet position.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/re-position.jpg

Before:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/before.jpg

After:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/after.jpg

ashtal
21-12-2005, 07:37 PM
Richard, the car feels better than it was with WI before. I'll have to drive it a bit more to work out if it feel better or worse than no WI at all, I'll l et you know in a few days. First impressions are pretty good though.

Thanks for today, always interesting when I pay you a visit. :D

Hows the car going ?

K3FUS
22-12-2005, 11:11 AM
yes please do tell......

MikeWarner
22-12-2005, 04:40 PM
It is difficult to tell. I'll fit a switch so that I can turn it on and off while driving - hopefully then I'll be able to feel the difference.

ashtal
28-12-2005, 08:05 PM
I was thinking of putting the jet in the same place a mike had his in the first place, But i was going to put mine inline with the air flow. My reasoning is that if the jet aims strait at the other side of the pipe it will not stay atomised, where as in line with the flow it should stay as a fine mist !?!

MikeWarner
28-12-2005, 08:31 PM
In the Aquamist instructions it states very clearly not to do this. I'm not sure the reason why, maybe Richard could explain.

ashtal
28-12-2005, 08:52 PM
In the Aquamist instructions it states very clearly not to do this. I'm not sure the reason why, maybe Richard could explain.

:? Dont know what the reason could be ! Think i have seen a pic of some inline jets on a supra !

slostar
30-12-2005, 02:15 AM
how i see it, mist shouldn't make it to the other side of the pipe. the air should pick the water up on the way past, giving a better mix/cylinder distribution. and probably better atomization at the same time. just the same as adding an extra injector to the intake pipe, never aim it down the throttle body. as you will get rich and lean cylinders

Richard L
30-12-2005, 07:59 AM
Water is normally injected under boost, the mass of the charge air has enough momentum to drag the water droplets in the direction of the flow.

The effect is similar to a smoking chimmey on a windy day.

ashtal
30-12-2005, 07:14 PM
Water is normally injected under boost, the mass of the charge air has enough momentum to drag the water droplets in the direction of the flow.

The effect is similar to a smoking chimmey on a windy day.

So why shouldnt it be down stream with the air flow ? The place i planed to put it isnt pointing in the throttle body ( its about 2.5 3 foot away !) , surely it will be atomised as soon as it leaves the jet !?!

Richard L
30-12-2005, 07:52 PM
Water is normally injected under boost, the mass of the charge air has enough momentum to drag the water droplets in the direction of the flow.

The effect is similar to a smoking chimmey on a windy day.

So why shouldnt it be down stream with the air flow ? The place i planed to put it isnt pointing in the throttle body ( its about 2.5 3 foot away !) , surely it will be atomised as soon as it leaves the jet !?!

You are right, it should atomise regardless.

turblue
02-01-2006, 10:47 AM
I'd like to share with you my Astra Turbo wi install.

In this pic, you can see the VXR intake pipe with a custom section from the intercooler containing the injector.
http://fileshare.turblue.com/water%20injection/DSCF0012.JPG

This pic is the custom section with the injector. The pipe diameter is 2 inch.
http://fileshare.turblue.com/water%20injection/DSCF0014.JPG

This pic shows how the injector is placed. It is milled to reduce restriction. It is placed to spray into the oncoming airflow.
http://fileshare.turblue.com/water%20injection/DSCF0060.JPG

I have not done a dyno run yet, so I can't indicate power levels. But I can tell you from the ECU logs I have collected that the system certainly drops the inlet temps.

37C outside temp.
60C inlet temp with no wi.
38C inlet temp with wi.

Here is a graph of the ECU log.
http://fileshare.turblue.com/water%20injection/hot%20day.jpg

Cheers..!!!!

Richard L
03-01-2006, 10:11 PM
Mike,

I have been planning the MAF trimming circuit, it enables to to do the following task:

1) Build into a box about 100mm x 50mm x 25mm
2) Upon switching on (manual switch) the MAF signal go through a number of modifications.
3) The "start trimming voltage" reaches a user preset voltage (~3-5V)
4) Once the voltage is reached, the MAF voltage will start slopping downwards (less upwards).
5) The "amount" of slope is user adjustable, limited to ~20%.
6) A 0-1V Bargraph display monitor the lambda value. (splice into the existing sensor). It is not perfect but you should see rich or lean.
7) An electronic level should be included to disable the "MAF trim" should lambda fall below a preset voltage - some where between 0.4-1.0v.
8) If the lambda falls below the preset level, it will turn off the Map trim.

What do you think - add more facilities?

MikeWarner
03-01-2006, 10:31 PM
Richard - that sounds brilliant. I take it you would wire the activation via a flow sensor?

I'll try and get that minimum AFM voltage trigger point for you, but the filter leak got worse so I have switched it off until I have a moment to sort that. I'll let you know the voltage as soon as I can.

Richard L
03-01-2006, 10:51 PM
At presesnt independly with WI. Just to test the unit with the WI injection on only and cross your figures that it is not blocked.

I will make provision for a WI flow sensor input. It will be so cool to trim the fuel according to the water flow rate, At present, you have a system1s - pehaps we just put in a flow sensor even it reads one flow rate? Things will be simplier when DDS3 is added so we can set up a window area to detect the correct water flow.etc.

Useful to have some MAF voltage so I can design-in the potentiometer adjustment range. I think anything from 3-4psi onwards will be fine - possible on fourth or fifth gear.

Are you referring to the second water injection filter?

Richard

Richard - that sounds brilliant. I take it you would wire the activation via a flow sensor?

I'll try and get that minimum AFM voltage trigger point for you, but the filter leak got worse so I have switched it off until I have a moment to sort that. I'll let you know the voltage as soon as I can.

Richard L
03-01-2006, 10:53 PM
Excellent water injection pictures. Ensure you use plenty of loctite on the nut.

You must have a very good camera.

Richard


I'd like to share with you my Astra Turbo wi install.

In this pic, you can see the VXR intake pipe with a custom section from the intercooler containing the injector.
http://fileshare.turblue.com/water%20injection/DSCF0012.JPG

This pic is the custom section with the injector. The pipe diameter is 2 inch.
http://fileshare.turblue.com/water%20injection/DSCF0014.JPG

This pic shows how the injector is placed. It is milled to reduce restriction. It is placed to spray into the oncoming airflow.
http://fileshare.turblue.com/water%20injection/DSCF0060.JPG

I have not done a dyno run yet, so I can't indicate power levels. But I can tell you from the ECU logs I have collected that the system certainly drops the inlet temps.

37C outside temp.
60C inlet temp with no wi.
38C inlet temp with wi.

Here is a graph of the ECU log.
http://fileshare.turblue.com/water%20injection/hot%20day.jpg

Cheers..!!!!

MikeWarner
03-01-2006, 11:08 PM
Are you referring to the second water injection filter? No - I still haven't fitted it - it has been a bit hectic over xmas. I should have a chance to do this on Saturday.

Richard L
03-01-2006, 11:46 PM
UPDATING:

1) Build into a box about 100mm x 50mm x 25mm
2) Upon switching on (manual switch) the MAF signal go through a number of modifications.
3) The "start trimming voltage" reaches a user preset voltage (~3-5V)
4) Once the voltage is reached, the MAF voltage will start slopping downwards (less upwards).
5) The "amount" of slope is user adjustable, limited to ~20%.
6) A 0-1V Bargraph display monitor the lambda value. (splice into the existing sensor). It is not perfect but you should see rich or lean.
7) An electronic level should be included to disable the "MAF trim" should lambda fall below a preset voltage - some where between 0.4-1.0v.
8) If the lambda falls below the preset level, it will turn off the Map trim.
9) System can be triggered by the 1s's manifold pressure switch
10) System also can be triggered by the a ground signal (opposite to 1s)

Richard L
04-01-2006, 07:22 PM
Here is an attempt on a breadboard:



http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/pcb-index-s.jpg

MikeWarner
04-01-2006, 07:28 PM
Richard - looks very impressive, but way over my head. I'll try and get those figures to you asap. Thanks. :)

Richard L
04-01-2006, 07:48 PM
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/pcb-index-s2.jpg

It all started out as a simple MAF voltage output trimmer...

then

I thought it would be nice to see what the lambda voltage is doing at the same time....

then

Why not use the lambda voltage to put some safety control automatically. So when the lambda valve drop below a certain level (too lean), it stops trimming the MAF.

then...

Since I have a few some more processing power, why not make a mAP sensor clamp so that the ECU do not see extra boost dialled in.

then...

Making the system automatically switch in when water is being sprayed .

then.... so on

Richard

ashtal
05-01-2006, 06:42 PM
Way over my head at the mo. But i really hope it works well. It certainly looks like you have put lots of time, effort and knowledge in to the bit of kit. nice one . :D

Richard L
05-01-2006, 08:57 PM
When thing quieten down a bit herte, I will ask Mike to pay me another visit and get this unit installed.

If it works as it suppose to, I can offer this unit as a package with WI.

Richard

K3FUS
06-01-2006, 09:06 AM
When thing quieten down a bit herte, I will ask Mike to pay me another visit and get this unit installed.

If it works as it suppose to, I can offer this unit as a package with WI.

Richard

Sounds like a stupid question, but what will it do? My car is identical to Mike's and as you may remeber my WI is non operational at the moment until I deside what to do with it (still not sure about the intercooler spray).

Richard L
06-01-2006, 10:41 AM
Sounds like a stupid question, but what will it do? My car is identical to Mike's and as you may remeber my WI is non operational at the moment until I deside what to do with it (still not sure about the intercooler spray).

The unit is suppose to modify the fuel delivery. In order for WI injection to play an active part in power making, the air/fuel ratio has to be corrected.

In almost all turbo cars, it tends to run rich to so the fuel is used as a coolant. But rich a/f ratio also robs power. So if we can replace those extra fuel by water, it is the most ideal setup for water injection. The unit do just that.

Water injection is effective on retaining your power in the summer by keeping the charge temperarture down but in winter, it tends to rob power due to over cooling. Reducing rich fuel mixture will allow more heat available for power.

Does it make sense?

Richard

K3FUS
07-01-2006, 10:53 PM
What you are saying makes sence, but I'd like to see it thoughly tested beforeusing it on my car as I'm sur eyou know the consequences of running the car too lean at high boost.

Richard L
08-01-2006, 12:15 PM
What you are saying makes sence, but I'd like to see it thoughly tested beforeusing it on my car as I'm sur eyou know the consequences of running the car too lean at high boost.

I won't be taking any unnecessary risks - will porbably calibrate it on a dyno rather on road.

After all, this what WI is originally designed for - replacing excess fuel. The above unit is quite safe, it reads the lambda and if it go lean, the voltage converter will switch off automatically.

If the unit proved to be effective, might fit a DDS3 to monitor water flow. The unit is also capable of modifying the fuel in relationship with water flow adn well as monitoring the lambda at the same time.... This will be almost be 99% bullet proof. The unit is not expensibe to produce either.

Richard

Richard L
08-01-2006, 02:14 PM
Here is a chart shows how the little unit work:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/MAF-converter.gif

ashtal
08-01-2006, 02:53 PM
What connections will the maf converter need to the car ?

Richard L
08-01-2006, 03:42 PM
What connections will the maf converter need to the car ?

There is a multicore cable that goes to the MAF sensor on the Astra:
1) 0V
2) +5V
3) +12V
4) MAF OUTPUT (0-5V)

The converter splice ionto the cut MAF cable. We also use the +12V and 0V for powering the converter.

Quite simple.

Richard

ashtal
09-01-2006, 07:30 PM
What connections will the maf converter need to the car ?

There is a multicore cable that goes to the MAF sensor on the Astra:
1) 0V
2) +5V
3) +12V
4) MAF OUTPUT (0-5V)

The converter splice ionto the cut MAF cable. We also use the +12V and 0V for powering the converter.

Quite simple.

Richard

Will it need connecting to the 1s kit and the dds3 ?

Richard L
09-01-2006, 09:01 PM
I have made provison on the prototype to sense the pressure switch of the 1s, when the 1s triggers, it will automatically start the conversion.

I have also made available an extra input to read the DDS3's flow signal (50-450cc/min) so the converter trims the fuel proportiional to water flow.

All these facilities are waiting to be tested. I am still a bit tied up at present. The unit has already been made sometime ago but yet to find time to try it. It all work as intended on the beanch.

Richard

Gelf
10-01-2006, 07:19 PM
I have made provison on the prototype to sense the pressure switch of the 1s, when the 1s triggers, it will automatically start the conversion.

I have also made available an extra input to read the DDS3's flow signal (50-450cc/min) so the converter trims the fuel proportiional to water flow.

All these facilities are waiting to be tested. I am still a bit tied up at present. The unit has already been made sometime ago but yet to find time to try it. It all work as intended on the beanch.

Richard

Looks like Ive been missing out on some interesting developments :cool:

MikeWarner
10-01-2006, 10:51 PM
Sorry Richard - I haven't been able to get those figures to you as my car has been of the road with a major electrical fault. Maybe you can help with your knowledge of electrics? See this post for more info:
http://www.migweb.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=244956

Richard L
11-01-2006, 07:20 PM
I have just read the post on the other forum.

I don't know what has happened. It appeared that this was a short somewhere and cause some ECU malfunction. I wonder if you can unplug the battery for an hour or so to reset the ECU. But your window circuit may need hardware attention. Resetting theECU is your first priorirt.

Richard

PS I stay tune and any update. You have some diagnostic software, would it work?




Sorry Richard - I haven't been able to get those figures to you as my car has been of the road with a major electrical fault. Maybe you can help with your knowledge of electrics? See this post for more info:
http://www.migweb.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=244956

Richard L
12-01-2006, 07:33 PM
I got on to the Migweb forum and gather that you have cured your electrical problem - all cuased bya loose earth terminal.

Well done.

So when will you be free to advance our little project?

MikeWarner
12-01-2006, 07:54 PM
Whenever really. I can get a day off, or do a saturday if you want. Are you going to book a rolling road to check it all out or will we just test the system works for now? I look forward to it. :)

ashtal
12-01-2006, 11:36 PM
You will have to let me know the result. Got a R/R day on feb 25th and would like to have that bit more power for my mods ! :wink: Hope it all go's well.

Richard L
13-01-2006, 12:52 AM
I will organise the rolling going for you.

We must get the converter installed and check all its non-conversion mode switched on. I need you to get familiar with lambda readings over a short period (bargraph).

I am happy with the coming Saturday or any week day next week, just let me know.

Richard


Whenever really. I can get a day off, or do a saturday if you want. Are you going to book a rolling road to check it all out or will we just test the system works for now? I look forward to it. :)

Gelf
13-01-2006, 11:15 AM
Richard if all goes well, I will be interested in aquiring this converter, will you be marketing it ? How much will it cost ? :cool: :cool:

Richard L
13-01-2006, 12:53 PM
Richard if all goes well, I will be interested in aquiring this converter, will you be marketing it ? How much will it cost ? :cool: :cool:

I am not sure if this item is going to be manufactured, need to test the effectiveness first.

The cost will be low since there are no power switching components and no mechanical parts, just purely signal processing. Propbaly packaged with a WI system as a bundled kit. It has to be a car specific as we can't market it as a universal converter.

The reason why I went this route was our user has to pay a noticeable fee for some tuning company to access their ECU juist to take some fuel off in order to get the best out of WI.

In most cases, the tuner is reluctant to do it because the risk of running the engine too lean in absence of WI even a "failsafe" mechanism is available at hand.

Mike was a fine example. Without looking into the reason for loosing power, most people will just put the loss due to WI and not because the water was wetting the sensor causing it to run pig rich etc.

The first 30-50 horse power is quite easy to extract from a factory turbo car. But unfortunately by the time people considering WI as a power adder, most of the flow capacity to make power is used up. This is the reason why WI has never received a fair fight on the power game.

I hope that one day we can turn this around and see if anyone can extract more power from a set up after WI is fully exploited. It will be interesting. I hope by looking into supplying a tuning tool with WI (as with the converter), people may consider WI as their first tuning step.

Richard

Gelf
13-01-2006, 06:06 PM
It has to be a car specific as we can't market it as a universal converter.
Richard

Thats ok, mines an Astra zlet engine, the same as Mikes. :cool:

Gelf
13-01-2006, 06:15 PM
Is it not possible to allow a controlled volume of unmetered air enter the inlet tract after the AFM, to lean up the mixture when WI is activated ? Filtered obviously.

Surely you must be able to calculate a fixed diameter opening to weaken the mixture by a known percentage, which would be opened by a selonoid triggered by the WI circuitry ?

Say for example

5mm = 5%
7mm = 10%
9mm = 15% etc

Richard L
13-01-2006, 06:26 PM
Hello Gelf,

I am sure it is possible to do it. It is not easy for me to test the method machanically as it requires some intense flow calculation and then machine something out to do it - the flow through a irregular path of a solenoid is quite complicated.

It is simplier for me to alter the electrial signal of the MAF.

Richard



Is it not possible to allow a controlled volume of unmetered air enter the inlet tract after the AFM, to lean up the mixture when WI is activated ? Filtered obviously.

Surely you must be able to calculate a fixed diameter opening to weaken the mixture by a known percentage, which would be opened by a selonoid triggered by the WI circuitry ?

Say for example

5mm = 5%
7mm = 10%
9mm = 15% etc

Richard L
16-01-2006, 09:28 PM
Whenever really. I can get a day off, or do a saturday if you want. Are you going to book a rolling road to check it all out or will we just test the system works for now? I look forward to it. :)

Mike,

I am OK for this week, are you available?

MikeWarner
16-01-2006, 10:47 PM
How long do we need? Would turning up at 12:20 at some point this week give us enough time?

Richard L
16-01-2006, 10:59 PM
I will do what I can with whatever timing available.

I am just wire the unit and test if is reads the sensors properly. I think testing and tuning with the unit wil be another date on a dyno.

You can watch all the led flickering but it will not do any modifications to your fueling. It is also useful to see the lambda readings.

12.20pm is fine, just tellme the night before.

richard@aquamist.co.uk

Richard




How long do we need? Would turning up at 12:20 at some point this week give us enough time?

MikeWarner
17-01-2006, 10:43 PM
Richard - How about tomorrow (Wednesday)?

Richard L
17-01-2006, 11:29 PM
Richard - How about tomorrow (Wednesday)?

Perfect. I will see you at 12.20pm.

Richard

K3FUS
18-01-2006, 09:22 AM
Richard if all goes well, I will be interested in aquiring this converter, will you be marketing it ? How much will it cost ? :cool: :cool:

I am not sure if this item is going to be manufactured, need to test the effectiveness first.

The cost will be low since there are no power switching components and no mechanical parts, just purely signal processing. Propbaly packaged with a WI system as a bundled kit. It has to be a car specific as we can't market it as a universal converter.

The reason why I went this route was our user has to pay a noticeable fee for some tuning company to access their ECU juist to take some fuel off in order to get the best out of WI.

In most cases, the tuner is reluctant to do it because the risk of running the engine too lean in absence of WI even a "failsafe" mechanism is available at hand.

Mike was a fine example. Without looking into the reason for loosing power, most people will just put the loss due to WI and not because the water was wetting the sensor causing it to run pig rich etc.

The first 30-50 horse power is quite easy to extract from a factory turbo car. But unfortunately by the time people considering WI as a power adder, most of the flow capacity to make power is used up. This is the reason why WI has never received a fair fight on the power game.

I hope that one day we can turn this around and see if anyone can extract more power from a set up after WI is fully exploited. It will be interesting. I hope by looking into supplying a tuning tool with WI (as with the converter), people may consider WI as their first tuning step.

Richard

Richard, contact Jon @ Courtenay if you want to discuss it with a tuner as I'm sure he'd like to hear what you have to say!

Richard L
19-01-2006, 12:49 AM
Have spoken to Jon this morning, he has found this project very interesting. He is looking forward to try it once the protptypen has worked properly.

Mike made it to me noon today and manged to run all the wires and test one function. Run out of time for get the rest tested and working.
The lambda part work very well. The bargraph tracks lambda voltage happily without any effort. I will be able to finish it on Friday.

The entire wiring was re-done. Now we have a 12-core cable lonking the engine bay and glove compartment.

Richard

K3FUS
19-01-2006, 09:29 AM
My WI is still not being used so I am looking at this before I deside what to do with it, being winter there's no rush.

MikeWarner
19-01-2006, 11:21 AM
Richard - Thanks again for yesterday, hopefully we can complete the installation on Friday.

The car does not feel like it is losing power with water injection on anymore. It was difficult to tell before if there was a difference (after the jet was moved), I think this may have been down to the bad earth problem I had which may have restricted the power to the fuel pump - as the car generally felt slower anyway. (I thought I was getting used to it!).

It is a pity I didn't bring my camera with me - could I have a copy of the photos you took please? The installation is almost hillariously neat - I'm very pleased with it.

I look forward to Friday. I'll be leaving Falmer at 4pm, so should be with you by 4.30pm.

ashtal
19-01-2006, 08:51 PM
I will be at courtenays on there R/R in mid feb having a map put in. Hopefully my WI will all be fitted and working by then. After that hopefully fit richards little box of tricks and see what kind of power increase there is ! :wink:

Richard L
19-01-2006, 09:11 PM
Richard - Thanks again for yesterday, hopefully we can complete the installation on Friday.

The car does not feel like it is losing power with water injection on anymore. It was difficult to tell before if there was a difference (after the jet was moved), I think this may have been down to the bad earth problem I had which may have restricted the power to the fuel pump - as the car generally felt slower anyway. (I thought I was getting used to it!).

It is a pity I didn't bring my camera with me - could I have a copy of the photos you took please? The installation is almost hillariously neat - I'm very pleased with it.

I look forward to Friday. I'll be leaving Falmer at 4pm, so should be with you by 4.30pm.

Mike,

I will put everything onto a CD fior Friday, from day1.

Friday:
It won't take long to plud the unit in. We need to find a place to tempaorary mount it so that you can see what is going on. I will set the unit for zero convert but you can still see the the lights flashing on and off.

Richard

Richard L
19-01-2006, 09:15 PM
I will be at courtenays on there R/R in mid feb having a map put in. Hopefully my WI will all be fitted and working by then. After that hopefully fit richards little box of tricks and see what kind of power increase there is ! :wink:

I will certainly try to get thing moving as quickly as possible. I would allow the unit to run a week to see if every part is working correctly before booking a RR session.

If the unit is effective, I will make a few more prototypes.

Richard

MikeWarner
19-01-2006, 10:32 PM
Richard - I got your email. See you tomorrow. :)

Gelf
20-01-2006, 09:21 AM
I will be at courtenays on there R/R in mid feb having a map put in. Hopefully my WI will all be fitted and working by then. After that hopefully fit richards little box of tricks and see what kind of power increase there is ! :wink:

I will certainly try to get thing moving as quickly as possible. I would allow the unit to run a week to see if every part is working correctly before booking a RR session.

If the unit is effective, I will make a few more prototypes.

Richard

Excellent, can I put my name down for beta testing :razz:

Richard L
20-01-2006, 11:53 PM
I will be at courtenays on there R/R in mid feb having a map put in. Hopefully my WI will all be fitted and working by then. After that hopefully fit richards little box of tricks and see what kind of power increase there is ! :wink:

I will certainly try to get thing moving as quickly as possible. I would allow the unit to run a week to see if every part is working correctly before booking a RR session.

If the unit is effective, I will make a few more prototypes.

Richard

Excellent, can I put my name down for beta testing :razz:


yes, of course.

MikeWarner
21-01-2006, 12:39 PM
Richard - it all seems to be functioning correctly. The WI won't come on any lower than 3.8v at the air flow meter, so I guess this is the lowest flow at which the 10psi can be gained. Lambda seems spot on too.

Richard L
21-01-2006, 08:04 PM
Richard - it all seems to be functioning correctly. The WI won't come on any lower than 3.8v at the air flow meter, so I guess this is the lowest flow at which the 10psi can be gained. Lambda seems spot on too.

Thanks for the MAF information. I guess it means when the MAF reads 3.8V, the boost is at 13psi?
I can't remember at what boost the WI triggers. Can you?

I have a few pictures here I took a few days ago.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/1.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/2.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/3.jpg

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/Dash-s.jpg

MikeWarner
22-01-2006, 11:09 AM
10psi.

Richard L
22-01-2006, 11:29 AM
Thanks Mike.

The MAF threshold is between 2.6V to 4.85 volts.
Each click of the trreshold potentiometer is about 0.11V.

11 clicks will arrive at the WI triggering point (3.8V). If you have a moment, could you advance the threshold potentiometer by 10 clicks (not 11), if things work as intended, the yollow led will come on almost immediately after the MAF converter is enabled by the system1s WI.

Things are looking good.

Richard

MikeWarner
22-01-2006, 01:23 PM
Richard - I thought the threshold was between 3 and 5v. It takes 8 clicks to get the lowest voltage the WI triggers with.

Richard L
22-01-2006, 02:09 PM
Richard - I thought the threshold was between 3 and 5v. It takes 8 clicks to get the lowest voltage the WI triggers with.

For some unknown reason, I have lowered it. I think it could be because the unit can be used on the mappable system as well.

Eight clicks is about 3.5V. So there must be a window area of 0.3V depending on the RPM /load/gear vs boost (10psi). I think we are on the correct working area.

Richard

ashtal
22-01-2006, 05:26 PM
So at the moment the box is only taking readings from the car. I take it it is not changing any signals yet ? It looks really good by the way :wink: . The big problem with the zlet is the AMM, there always braking down ! Would the box be affected by an AMM break down ?

MikeWarner
22-01-2006, 05:28 PM
Correct, it is not making any changes yet - this will be setup on a rolling road.

ashtal
22-01-2006, 05:36 PM
Correct, it is not making any changes yet - this will be setup on a rolling road.

Any time soon ? :D I really hope it works well. Can you just explan how and why it will give more power ? I kind of got an idea but, might be wrong.

MikeWarner
22-01-2006, 07:12 PM
I think it is all in this thread Basically, turbo engines run rich underload as a safety measure. This keep the engine cooler as the excess fuel helps with cooling and I think with detonation too. The problem with this extra fuel is that it causes inefficient combustion, so you loose power. By removing the extra fuel under load, you get more power. The water injection then takes the place of the fuel and cools the engine and helps with detonation.

Richard L
22-01-2006, 07:50 PM
Correct, it is not making any changes yet - this will be setup on a rolling road.

Any time soon ? :D I really hope it works well. Can you just explan how and why it will give more power ? I kind of got an idea but, might be wrong.

An engine is being over-fueled for the purpose of keep the incylinder temperature down to suppress detonation. This safety measure is often adpoted by the manufacturer as well as the aftermarket tuning industry.

Engine produces best fuel economy at afr 14.5:1 upwards, but also produced high combustion temperatures. Flames colours are often blue rather yellowish similar to setting up a bunsen burner.

Best power is generally obtained around 12.5:1 afr.
Best torque around 11.9 afr. Richer afr (cooler burn) enables the ignition timing be more advanced and hence more torque.

Due to warranty issues and reputations, tuners often tune the afr well below 12.5:1. the afr ranging between 10:1 top 11.5. almost as much as 20% extra fuel is being used to keep the engine running cooler.

For those who doesn't care about economy but just want to keep the engine safe should read on... Excess fuel burns with a yellowish and sooty flame. Over rich afr produces a great deal of carbon monoxide. Carbon monoxide only yields 30% power of carbon dioxide so your precious oxygen is being carry away as well as neat fuel out of your exhaust pipe.

The little unit basically tries to shift the rich afr towards something approaching 12.5:1 in presence of WI. Since onlyone part of water is being used to do the same job as injecting six times amount of fuel.

See the chart below: (only 3% w/f ratio is enough to reduce your fuel consumption at WOT by 20%)
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/afmr/100w.gif



The proposed unit has a certain amount of failsafe mechanism inbuilt. It constantly monitors the lambda value, if it drop below a preset point, it disables the MAF converter. Converter automatically switches on when WI is enabled. It can also trim the MAF voltage in relationship with the amount of water flow if a water flow sensor is used.

Who knows, if a car is equipped with a Wide band lambda sensor, you can preset your desired afr with this unit.

Cannot comment on the MAF sensor failure - it will depend on what output it gives after failure.

Richard

Richard L
22-01-2006, 08:17 PM
Mike,

I cannot make the dyno next week - just over booked my time table.

What about the mid-week following?

Richard

MikeWarner
22-01-2006, 08:21 PM
No problem, whenever is good for you.

ashtal
22-01-2006, 11:47 PM
Cheers for the explation. Its alot clearer now. good luck with the dyno, hope all go's well.

MikeWarner
26-01-2006, 02:16 PM
Richard, let me know when you have a date availalbe so that I can book the afternoon off. Cheers. :)

Richard L
30-01-2006, 03:54 PM
Richard, let me know when you have a date availalbe so that I can book the afternoon off. Cheers. :)


Mike,

I am afraid this week is not possible - I am sorry. I will update the possibility for the week after.

Richard

MikeWarner
07-02-2006, 11:14 AM
Hi Richard - any update on a date?

Richard L
07-02-2006, 11:34 AM
Hi Richard - any update on a date?

Mike, I have just spoken to Gary at GTART, he can put me in on Wedneday, thursday, Friday or Saturday week, He is fully booked for this week. Let me know if you can make any of those days.

Richard

MikeWarner
07-02-2006, 03:06 PM
How about noon on Wednesday next week?

Richard L
07-02-2006, 08:01 PM
How about noon on Wednesday next week?

I will arrange it .

Is everything still working?

MikeWarner
07-02-2006, 10:57 PM
Yes - it all seems great. :D

Richard L
08-02-2006, 07:30 PM
Mike,

I have asked for Wednesday week (15th) is set for 2pm. We should have some fun.
Would you like to meet me earlier at ERL and may be get a bite of sandwich before setting off.

Richard

MikeWarner
08-02-2006, 11:01 PM
Sounds good to me. I'll be leaving work at 12:00.

Richard L
08-02-2006, 11:26 PM
Sounds good to me. I'll be leaving work at 12:00.

If there is any change from the present arrangement I will post here in good time. I will confirm with Gary (GTART) tomorrow by the latest.

ashtal
09-02-2006, 07:42 PM
Good luck with the R/R setup. Finally got the car mapped the other day. It hit 267bhp, theres some kind of restriction in the exhaust ! :sad:

Richard L
09-02-2006, 07:54 PM
Good luck with the R/R setup. Finally got the car mapped the other day. It hit 267bhp, theres some kind of restriction in the exhaust ! :sad:

With or without WI?

By thursday next week, I should learn a great deal more on the Astra. Hope I can gain some new power. The only tool I have a trimming the MAF. We shall see.

Richard L
09-02-2006, 07:54 PM
Sounds good to me. I'll be leaving work at 12:00.

So far so good.

ashtal
10-02-2006, 07:05 PM
Good luck with the R/R setup. Finally got the car mapped the other day. It hit 267bhp, theres some kind of restriction in the exhaust ! :sad:

With or without WI?

By thursday next week, I should learn a great deal more on the Astra. Hope I can gain some new power. The only tool I have a trimming the MAF. We shall see.

Without.

The WI is not fully installed yet. Had to hold my horses cause the cash spent on the R/R. But its ok now. will phone next week to order the rest of the parts needed and hopefully install it all next weekend.

ashtal
15-02-2006, 06:51 PM
Mike,

I have asked for Wednesday week (15th) is set for 2pm. We should have some fun.
Would you like to meet me earlier at ERL and may be get a bite of sandwich before setting off.

Richard

Well ....... ?

Sorry, im a little inpatient to find out the result !

MikeWarner
15-02-2006, 06:54 PM
Not good power wise, although Richard has some before and afters to work on.

Take a wild stab at which sensor caused me to loose 30bhp (this is nothing to do with the WI btw).

ashtal
15-02-2006, 08:02 PM
Not good power wise, although Richard has some before and afters to work on.

Take a wild stab at which sensor caused me to loose 30bhp (this is nothing to do with the WI btw).

AMM ! or the o2 sensor. Think one of my o2 sensors is out.

MikeWarner
15-02-2006, 08:08 PM
Yep -AFM.

Richard L
15-02-2006, 09:20 PM
Here is today's dyno run. Didn't have a chance to try the MAF converter since the afr is quite lean already at certain places.

The first run -base:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/dyno/baseline.jpg

Second run -with 50M/50W 0.5mm jet:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/dyno/first-WI.jpg

Third run - abandoned midway due to leaning after replacing another MAF sensor:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/dyno/lean.jpg

ashtal
15-02-2006, 09:34 PM
Thats a shame. The AFR line look quite erattic ! Was bhp figure at the wheels or flywheel ?

Was thinking, would it be possible to moniter the AMM like the lambda sensor ?

Richard L
15-02-2006, 09:39 PM
Although the last plt was abandoned midway, it still made respectable power running at extremely lean condition (WI was switched on).

Unfortunately the bottom scale is not in RPM but scaled in seconds.

I did my best to superimpose the lean run on top of the baseline. After loosing some power during acceleration, it appeared we have picked up some power -only just. Lean plot is the fainter one.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/dyno/baseline+lean.jpg

Richard L
15-02-2006, 09:58 PM
Thats a shame. The AFR line look quite erattic ! Was bhp figure at the wheels or flywheel ?

Was thinking, would it be possible to moniter the AMM like the lambda sensor ?

The power plot was "at the wheels".

MikeWarner
15-02-2006, 10:03 PM
RIchard, what was the name of that diagnostic bit of kit you suggested, I've forgotten.

Richard L
15-02-2006, 10:15 PM
RIchard, what was the name of that diagnostic bit of kit you suggested, I've forgotten.

Here is the link:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

Richard

Richard L
15-02-2006, 10:37 PM
Mike,

You have managed to try out your fuel leaning tool (extra lean MAF sensor) before I try out mine.

The results showed how lean you can run your engine and still gain some power increase.

I would never have dare to run lambda at .93 on someone's car!!

you were very brave!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

MikeWarner
15-02-2006, 11:18 PM
Well I think if I didn't have the water injection, the engine could be dead by now!!!! I won't be trying it again though.

ashtal
16-02-2006, 12:19 AM
What the next step now ?

turblue
16-02-2006, 07:48 AM
I may be reading this wrong, but it appears to me that the wi has had little effect on power. I am assuming the first graph has no wi.

I have logged a large change in inlet temps (60C-38C) and would have expected some increase in power due to a cooler charge. However these graphs are showing no real change in power delivery. Sad to say, but I am beginning to think that wi on the Astra is not effective in raising power levels. I have other reasons for this thought.

Please, don't think I am being negative. I have spent considerable money intergrating a wi on my car, and I would love it to work.

Richard L
16-02-2006, 09:53 AM
There were a few clues as to why WI was not effective in this case.

Temperature reduction is very small when the ambient air was at 7 degC during the dyno and not having been able to use the MAF due to the re-mapped ECU displaying irregular afr pattern. See the black curve on the bottom of each plot.

I believe Vaxuall has done a great job making the engine very difficult to tune, It appeared the boost pressure is controlled by the ECU. This was shown by the progressive drop in boost pressure at the RPM climbed, the aim of the exercise by to achieve a flat torque curve regardless of anything else.

I have also noticed the designed of the turbo components. The intergrated inlet flange, the tiny exhaust manifold and electronic bleed valve arrangement, all seemed to indicate and confirm that Vauxhall is making this Astra difficult to tune for extra power.

After giving some though after the dyno session, I concluded that the only way to get power is to remove some of the restrictions imposed by the mechanical design. But before embarking on such an assumption, I think the next simplest thing to try is to gentlly modifying the boost curve - I have some ideas how this can be achieved.

Finally apart form abandoning the last dyno run midway, we can see the positive effect of WI when power gain was achieved midpoint during the momentary lean running.

I would like to continue the development if Mike is willing to continue - modifying the boost cuve to acieve one or more psi after it has dropped to 12psi after the initial 18psi and bear fruit. Anyway , not quite given up the fight with Vauxhall yet.

K3FUS
16-02-2006, 12:46 PM
Richard

I have been running without WI since December, I have found out why my "in pipe" jet "union" failed, it was inserted back to front with the wide flange on the outside!

Now I have my new intercooler fitted I can locate the jet after the cooler, but before the map/temp sensor. I shall do this over the next couple of weeks and then see what happens on Courtenay's Dyno (if Jon's happy to do so) and also rig up a cooler spray to see if any gains can be made there too.

It's looking to me that the WI is only going to be effective when the ambient temp climbs and the charge temp gets close to the 70 deg C, after which the mapping chucks in extra fuel as a fail safe (I assumed you knew this trigger point, but never reached it?).

Not given up yet, but I don't want to trim the map to remove fuel for obvious reasons, I have rebuilt a C-LET once because of detonation and I don't fancy a Z-LET based reincarnation!

Richard L
16-02-2006, 01:22 PM
Richard

I have been running without WI since December, I have found out why my "in pipe" jet "union" failed, it was inserted back to front with the wide flange on the outside!

Now I have my new intercooler fitted I can locate the jet after the cooler, but before the map/temp sensor. I shall do this over the next couple of weeks and then see what happens on Courtenay's Dyno (if Jon's happy to do so) and also rig up a cooler spray to see if any gains can be made there too.

It's looking to me that the WI is only going to be effective when the ambient temp climbs and the charge temp gets close to the 70 deg C, after which the mapping chucks in extra fuel as a fail safe (I assumed you knew this trigger point, but never reached it?).

Not given up yet, but I don't want to trim the map to remove fuel for obvious reasons, I have rebuilt a C-LET once because of detonation and I don't fancy a Z-LET based reincarnation!

Interestingly, due to the low evaporating rate of water in cold inlets air, most of the cooling power of water is transferred to the combustion chambers. If the amount of water is not reduced to compensate, the engine will loose power. It is especially pronounced when the engine is not tuned for WI injection.

There are instances where WI will sustain good gains in winter if the engine is highly tuned for it. I am trying to designed a interface unit that will allow WI to be effective all year around - Mike's car was my attempt down this route. Processing re-processing sensor signal is a low-cost affair, if it can be incorporate into the WI setup at minimal cost. you will get the WI benifit all year around and it is not a risky add-on either.

Most engine management is equipped with active knock control and as well as boost control. It just DOESN'T know that water injection has the effect as putting in a tank of higher octane fuel instantly (as during the dyno run), if Mike car is allow to run with WI for a few weeks, the engine management should adjust itself to accomondate the "knock" suppresssion properties of water and create new maps to suit.

I think the Astra will benifit with mid-range torque increase with WI and top-end power requires more mechanical mods. Trimming the fuel can not be used unless you have a consistant MAF sensor - too risky. I was withnessing the immediate afr leaning after Mike change over the MAF element during the dyno session. If you want to further your tuning potential, I recommend you getting the Innovate wide band lambda unit. Armed with this unit, you can be very safe during any home or road tune.

There are just so many ways to tune and there is not enough time....

JohnA
16-02-2006, 01:23 PM
...Not given up yet, but I don't want to trim the map to remove fuel for obvious reasons, I have rebuilt a C-LET once because of detonation and I don't fancy a Z-LET based reincarnation!
All of my experiments have shown that one shouldn't expect power gains with W.I. if fuelling isn't trimmed accordingly.
Otherwise you might get an extra thick protection margin against detonation, but that's it. Usually at the expense of power. That's what most people do, and that's what most 'tuners' do, so they give W.I. a bad name (useless, expensive, band-aid, etc)

They are still stuck in books from the seventies and eighties, or practices from days gone by.

I have seen significant power gains with water/methanol injection both in the summer and the winter so it can be done.
The concept works.

ashtal
16-02-2006, 06:31 PM
RIchard, what was the name of that diagnostic bit of kit you suggested, I've forgotten.

Here is the link:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/

Richard

Watched one of the vid's from that site ! Most of what they say go's strait over my head. But i do kind of understand how the wide band is better than the normal lambda. Would this wideband lambda work with the astra's ecu ?

Is the MAF converter not going to be the way forward with WI on the astra ?

JohnA
16-02-2006, 06:46 PM
On the C20LET I had the ECU accepting the output from the AEM wideband.
Apart from it's own display of the wideband, it also had an output that could be set up to emulate the stock narrowband sensor. So the ECU was very happy. In fact it ran better than with the stock sensor, because the wideband moves quicker.

Richard L
16-02-2006, 07:32 PM
Watched one of the vid's from that site ! Most of what they say go's strait over my head. But i do kind of understand how the wide band is better than the normal lambda. Would this wideband lambda work with the astra's ecu ?

Is the MAF converter not going to be the way forward with WI on the astra ?

I watched the video several times before I absorbed everything properly - it was an excellent message for producing fuel efficient power. I was also very glad that they have mentioned WI as a replacement for fuel dumping.

I could not continue on the dyno with Mike's car as the air fuel ratio along the plot was a bit irregular. But I think Mike is tempted to getting the Innovate lambda gauge, I will then be a bit more comportable with what the a/f ratio is during the next tune. I still think the MAF converter is the way forward rather getting a full blow piggyback ECU, cost wise.

This is one thing which is very clear - trimming the MAF signal is a very simple way of leaning the air fuel ratio. I will contact Mike to find out if he want to continue.

Richard L
16-02-2006, 08:04 PM
Richard

I have been running without WI since December, I have found out why my "in pipe" jet "union" failed, it was inserted back to front with the wide flange on the outside!

Now I have my new intercooler fitted I can locate the jet after the cooler, but before the map/temp sensor. I shall do this over the next couple of weeks and then see what happens on Courtenay's Dyno (if Jon's happy to do so) and also rig up a cooler spray to see if any gains can be made there too.

It's looking to me that the WI is only going to be effective when the ambient temp climbs and the charge temp gets close to the 70 deg C, after which the mapping chucks in extra fuel as a fail safe (I assumed you knew this trigger point, but never reached it?).

Not given up yet, but I don't want to trim the map to remove fuel for obvious reasons, I have rebuilt a C-LET once because of detonation and I don't fancy a Z-LET based reincarnation!

Could you tell me how it failed? If you cab take a picture, it wil be much better.

K3FUS
16-02-2006, 09:16 PM
Richard

I have been running without WI since December, I have found out why my "in pipe" jet "union" failed, it was inserted back to front with the wide flange on the outside!

Now I have my new intercooler fitted I can locate the jet after the cooler, but before the map/temp sensor. I shall do this over the next couple of weeks and then see what happens on Courtenay's Dyno (if Jon's happy to do so) and also rig up a cooler spray to see if any gains can be made there too.

It's looking to me that the WI is only going to be effective when the ambient temp climbs and the charge temp gets close to the 70 deg C, after which the mapping chucks in extra fuel as a fail safe (I assumed you knew this trigger point, but never reached it?).

Not given up yet, but I don't want to trim the map to remove fuel for obvious reasons, I have rebuilt a C-LET once because of detonation and I don't fancy a Z-LET based reincarnation!



Could you tell me how it failed? If you cab take a picture, it wil be much better.

How what failed?

MikeWarner
16-02-2006, 09:32 PM
Richard - after looking at the innovatve products I look for alternatives and found this:
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

It is the Zeitronix Zt-2 and seems to be a brilliant bit of kit and much cheaper too. What do you think of it? The user input can log any 0-5v signal so I was thinking about getting one of these to log knock:
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/KNOCK_BLOCK_-LNK_KNKB.asp

I want to continue playing with the module. I fitted a new AFM today but it didn't feel like I got the power back. I logged the lambda (although only narrow band) and it stayed below 0.8, not sure how accurate it is. The second lambda sensor seemed to give fluctuating results (yes, there are two on this engine). I'll speak to Courtenays about this tomorrow. It may be that one of my lambda probes has gone funny.

I'll get the car running 100% before we have another go with it.

Richard L
16-02-2006, 09:55 PM
Richard - after looking at the innovatve products I look for alternatives and found this:
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

It is the Zeitronix Zt-2 and seems to be a brilliant bit of kit and much cheaper too. What do you think of it? The user input can log any 0-5v signal so I was thinking about getting one of these to log knock:
http://www.thor-racing.co.uk/KNOCK_BLOCK_-LNK_KNKB.asp

I want to continue playing with the module. I fitted a new AFM today but it didn't feel like I got the power back. I logged the lambda (although only narrow band) and it stayed below 0.8, not sure how accurate it is. The second lambda sensor seemed to give fluctuating results (yes, there are two on this engine). I'll speak to Courtenays about this tomorrow. It may be that one of my lambda probes has gone funny.

I'll get the car running 100% before we have another go with it.

I think both item is good value for money. Will be interesting to to know the total after adding the options. The LCD display and EGT probe is a must. Boost sensor is not need in your case as you have a map sensor already, you can log it on the user 0-5V.

72 samples per second per graph divided by 7 channels means 10 samples per second per input. It would ne nice if you have a few spare inputs.

I know very little about knock sensors - the nice ones uses DSP chip to analyise the knock and the not so good ones just have a tunable notch filter. I welcome you getting some useful tools to help tuning your car. It is too dangerous to to tune without them or rollong road hours can mount up very quickly.

Let me know when thing are back to normal again. If you have the wideband, you can check you MAF sensor daily.

MikeWarner
16-02-2006, 10:19 PM
Richard - I am currently watching the videos on the inovative site. Err.... that thing is amazing!!! I think I.m changing my mind back towards this setup..... (3 more videos to watch!)

Richard L
17-02-2006, 12:10 AM
Richard - I am currently watching the videos on the inovative site. Err.... that thing is amazing!!! I think I.m changing my mind back towards this setup..... (3 more videos to watch!)

The gauge concept the this gauge is amazing - 16 million colours - function of the gauge can be changed in a matter of minutes.

MikeWarner
17-02-2006, 12:22 AM
Yes - very impressed with that! I may order a kit with the aux box, exhaust clamp and cary case. Loving the way that it gives you factors to correct lambda to the target so you can put it straight into programable ECUs!!! Some great features, and support on the forum seems very good.

ashtal
17-02-2006, 07:05 PM
Richard - I am currently watching the videos on the inovative site. Err.... that thing is amazing!!! I think I.m changing my mind back towards this setup..... (3 more videos to watch!)

How doe's that bloke remember all of his lines !?!

Will this upgraded lambda be essential to tune the astra with WI ?

Richard L
17-02-2006, 09:42 PM
How doe's that bloke remember all of his lines !?!?

He has a photographic memory.



Will this upgraded lambda be essential to tune the astra with WI ?

I think it is essential to monitor the afr to get the best out of a tune.
If you like, I can superimpose the WI and no WI dyno chart and show you the difference M50/W50 effect on the power change.

ashtal
18-02-2006, 04:11 PM
How doe's that bloke remember all of his lines !?!?

He has a photographic memory.



Will this upgraded lambda be essential to tune the astra with WI ?

I think it is essential to monitor the afr to get the best out of a tune.
If you like, I can superimpose the WI and no WI dyno chart and show you the difference M50/W50 effect on the power change.

That would be good. :D

Is there any product which we could replace the AMM with ? The astras standard AMM is absolute junk.

MikeWarner
19-02-2006, 11:42 AM
Is there any product which we could replace the AMM with ? The astras standard AMM is absolute junk.I'm working on this. ;)

ashtal
19-02-2006, 09:49 PM
Is there any product which we could replace the AMM with ? The astras standard AMM is absolute junk.I'm working on this. ;)

How ?

MikeWarner
19-02-2006, 09:52 PM
I can't say, sorry.

ashtal
22-02-2006, 09:04 PM
I can't say, sorry.

Think my AMM has gone down now. I will have to get one tomorrow. :evil:

Any feedback on my install (in gallery section) would be apreciated.

Richard L
23-02-2006, 10:36 PM
They are really fragile,,,, :sad: :sad:

Richard L
23-02-2006, 10:39 PM
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/dyno/WI-baseline.jpg


Can anyone comment and suggest any thing what was going on?

MikeWarner
23-02-2006, 10:51 PM
Damn - that is really bizzare!!

Richard L
23-02-2006, 11:10 PM
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/dyno/WI-baseline.jpg

Can anyone comment and suggest any thing what was going on?

I agree. - more weird with I could paste the 13:1/afr trace onto it.

Richard

MikeWarner
24-02-2006, 03:57 PM
Ok, am I am going to think out loud here.

When tuning a turbo engine, you want to fuel in relation to the torque, not the horsepower. So, at high torque areas, you should runng a bit rich and as the torque drops, you can move the mixture to a lambda of around 0.85.

If you look at the graph from 2800rpm to 4000rpm (B to D) you can see that with WI the mixture was richer at this point and too lean without it. As a result, there was more power with the WI.

The extra rich mixture at the top end (G to J) is impacting on the torque hugely. As you can see, the WI was making it too rich because of the methanol content (was running 50/50). The run without WI got better results at the very top end. I think that if the graph went up to 6800rpm (limit) we would have seen it rise further.

I really can't work out what is going on sections E to G. It is possible that the AMM was not giving consistant results to the ECU and was fuelling differently on each run. Or maybe the cooler inlet charge helped keep the mixture leaner for longer when WI was running.

Richard. I will be recieving $1200 worth of kit from Inovate Motorsport in the next few days. I'll run some tests and log MAF, MAP, Lambda and RPM to produce some more graphs.

Oh - lambda is not effected by WI, the results for lambda is always correct as all it does is measure oxygen. AFR is not reliable as the stoichometric value of the fuel (due to the methanol) changes. AFR is a produce of the lambda mulipied by the stoichometric value of the fuel used, so you need to know this. If you stick to lambda figures you always know where you stand, even if you run methanol.

JohnA
24-02-2006, 05:51 PM
..When tuning a turbo engine, you want to fuel in relation to the torque, not the horsepower. ....

so 300lbft at 3000rpm need the same fuel as 300lbft at 6000rpm. Is that what you mean? :wink:

why does it go richer than 0.85 anyway?

MikeWarner
24-02-2006, 07:01 PM
lol - obviously you I meant Lambda, I guess I should have worded it better.


The Courtenay maps aim for 0.79 lambda for safety. A bit too safe I think though. Also, don't forget that the AFM was playing up a bit (we think).

JohnA
24-02-2006, 07:19 PM
lol - obviously you I meant Lambda, I guess I should have worded it better.).
Even lambda.
Why exactly would it have to be different?
Higher torque usually indicates better 'breathing' in that range, higher Volumetric Efficiency. More oxygen molecules per revolution.
So if fuelling adjusts to this, it will pair (say) 20% more fuel molecules to make up for 20% more oxygen molecules.
Lambda is just the ratio, it stays the same :wink:

The extra heat that might need absorbing in the combustion chambers (we're talking high-boost applications here) will be absrobed by the Water.
That is the whole idea behind this forum, isn't it? :D

The Courtenay maps aim for 0.79 lambda for safety. A bit too safe I think though.
we've already been through this, and it is 0.85 that we want in this case.
Their 0.79 is a good choice for a non-WI setup.

MikeWarner
24-02-2006, 07:22 PM
Yep - I will be aiming for 0.85 when I remap my car.

JohnA
24-02-2006, 07:29 PM
I'm saying this because I did several runs on mine on a hub dyno with various AFRs (I can adjust it on-the-fly)
Running rich 10-11:1 did nothing for power, and WI actually reduced power.
It's when you reach 12.5:1 that it starts to work properly.
It gets better at even leaner figures :shock:, but you may want to play it safe at this stage :cool: .

ashtal
24-02-2006, 07:37 PM
Yep - I will be aiming for 0.85 when I remap my car.

If you have you car maped for WI, will the engine run lean if the WI tank run dry ?

MikeWarner
24-02-2006, 07:43 PM
No, because I will have two maps which will be switchable. The low level sensor on the tank would automatically change the map to the safe version which will be designed to run without WI.

ashtal
24-02-2006, 07:46 PM
No, because I will have two maps which will be switchable. The low level sensor on the tank would automatically change the map to the safe version which will be designed to run without WI.

I take it this wont be on a standard ecu ! Will it ?

MikeWarner
24-02-2006, 07:51 PM
It will be a piggy back ECU on the standard ECU.

Richard L
24-02-2006, 10:08 PM
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gallery/astra/dyno/WI-baseline-lean.jpg

Here is all three dyno pulls of the day. The power didn't seem to suffer after the ramping up period. The engine seemed to enjoy running on WI +M only. Wonder why putting all those fuel there in the first place. We should have been brave and run the last pull all the way to red line.

I will get a time scale plot from Gary to ensure the RPM scale is matched to the previous pulls. The above picture is only a guessed fit.

Richard L
25-02-2006, 08:40 AM
Ok, am I am going to think out loud here.

When tuning a turbo engine, you want to fuel in relation to the torque, not the horsepower. So, at high torque areas, you should runng a bit rich and as the torque drops, you can move the mixture to a lambda of around 0.85.

If you look at the graph from 2800rpm to 4000rpm (B to D) you can see that with WI the mixture was richer at this point and too lean without it. As a result, there was more power with the WI.

The extra rich mixture at the top end (G to J) is impacting on the torque hugely. As you can see, the WI was making it too rich because of the methanol content (was running 50/50). The run without WI got better results at the very top end. I think that if the graph went up to 6800rpm (limit) we would have seen it rise further.

I really can't work out what is going on sections E to G. It is possible that the AMM was not giving consistant results to the ECU and was fuelling differently on each run. Or maybe the cooler inlet charge helped keep the mixture leaner for longer when WI was running.



I am sharing the same thoughts - it would be so nice whenyou have got your Wide band sensor, an in-car dynometer to take all the guessing game away.

Amazing how afr affect the torque reading - only running a small amount of water/methanol relatively.

Richard

Richard L
15-03-2006, 12:05 AM
Mike, got your toys yet?

Richard

MikeWarner
20-03-2006, 09:56 PM
Hi Rich. Yep - got the toys. Not had much time to play though. I still think there is an issue with the car, so I will be getting it checked out soon. I'll let you know when the car is ready to try again.

ashtal
08-06-2006, 06:59 PM
I have seen an astra turbo with an EGT sensor in the manifold (with in car guage). Would this help the trimming device and the dds3 ?

JohnA
10-06-2006, 06:17 PM
I have seen an astra turbo with an EGT sensor in the manifold (with in car guage). Would this help the trimming device and the dds3 ?
Although you can expect detonation when EGTs become excessive, you can also have detonation with EGTs in the 'normal' range for that engine.
So the EGT signal is not the best single indicator out there.

Richard L
11-06-2006, 08:22 PM
ashtal, what has happened to your pictures?

ashtal
12-06-2006, 07:06 PM
ashtal, what has happened to your pictures?
Account was closed. i will send them to you if thats ok ? Or do you know of any other hosting sites for pictures ? If not can i have your email address.

Richard L
13-06-2006, 09:25 PM
ashtal, what has happened to your pictures?
Account was closed. i will send them to you if thats ok ? Or do you know of any other hosting sites for pictures ? If not can i have your email address.

It is fine to email me the pictures on richard@aquamist.co.uk, I am happy to host those pictures for you on our server.

Richard