If you look under the Gallery section I just did a post in it with like to video and pressures at the end of my car thread (both around 7psi, you can see them on the lap top).

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

What a read !!!! All based on turbos though.

What about a centrifugal supercharger being spun hard ?

I currently spin my Vortech V7 YSi to a little over 65k, which is above their reccomended limit ( assuming I see no belt slip )

Oddly the compressor map they post for this unit...they only go to 50k.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...ressor_Map.jpg

Currently makes around 1 bar at 5000rpm, 1.2 bar at 6000rpm, and 1.4bar at 7000rpm.

Although generally shift at around 6700.


I do run a 50/50 after the IC, but could easily fit a nozzle before the Compressor too.

Given the overspeeding and apparent innefficient use of the compressor...would injecting pre compressor be of much benefit ? If it makes life easier for the compressor...would that mean easier on the belt drive ?

I have a pretty large IC, and temps do remain within say 30degC of ambient at most times now. Where I live is generally pretty cool too. Rarely over 20degC

Ive never measured pre IC temps though. Must try and hook something up to do that.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Wow, I was wondering myself what would be the effects of pre turbo WMI. It is more interesting than I expected!

On the other hand, would a system like that benefit from having pre and post WMI? is that possible with our current system using similar pulses but different injector sizes? How can we calculate how much WM mixture needs to be injected before the turbine? Using MAF measurements perhaps? Why it would be better not to have an intercooler? (I don't want to make custom plumbing besides the WMI itself, that's why I'm mounting an AMR TMIC instead of a FMIC). So many questions arise from this post...

Thanks for such an interesting topic,

Guillermo

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

I just got the water injection finished up on my RX7 last week, the nozzle is an external mixing nozzle utilizing *air* and *water* for atomization, it is a pumpless system as well. It's rated 600cc @ 20psi. My main purpose for it is a knock deterrent as I'm not really focused on extending my turbos map. Here are a few pictures, I will post any helpful information I come across.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63...n/DSC01429.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63...n/DSC01425.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63...n/DSC01426.jpg

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Hi,

after reading a lot about pre turbo water injection I decided to give it a go.
I have a 08 STi with a HFS-3 system from aquamist.
I did some CFD analysis on the intake and decided to put the nozzle about 10 inches before the turbo after a bend on the inside. I found this was the area that provided high turbulence and low pressure so the injection would atomize effectively and quickly before the turbo.
I used a 0.3 nozzle pre turbo and a 0.5 nozzle at the intercooler pre throttle body.

I have to say response at around 4500 rpms is excellent. The car just goes; although I have noticed a little compressor surge but I still have to do some datalogs to verify this.

Before using a single nozzle I used to have bogging down even after tuning ignition to compensate for the water injection.
Now even without tuning the car feels more linear.

I will be inspecting turbo blades later on for some damage but don't think there will be any.

In my opinion injecting pre turbo is more about getting the air to absorb the mixture quickly and not about doing it into the eye of the turbo.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

WARNING!

Be extremely careful about trusting general figures for flow rates on cheap copies of my mechanical WI system.

On a full price proper set up like I supply each and every single atomizer is hand modified and tested then stamped to give the proven flow rating capacity (not an "about" setting). Those atomizers as pictured vary wildly as they come from the supplier in both the quality of the air cap and the water side and each and every component needs to be modified & "correctly specified/modified" NOT JUST COPIED FROM ME and hope for the best!.

The precision metering in flow control valves again wildly copied by some are nothing like the quality of what I use and supply in RRWEP110 atomizers. Each and every single atomizer has its own flow sheet corresponding the the flow rate for a turn setting of the precision adjuster. Each and every jet achieves the atomization specification I state... there is a reason I charge what I do just for the atomizer as what some sell a whole WI kit! cheapo Rice Racing copy for.

Your mounting method for the atomizer is not recommended practice either, it is cheap and nasty to have the locking ring inside the air stream, its far harder to mount it properly but I suggest you go to the effort.

****To get the best out of this system you need an adjustable atomizer along with a flow rating that is legitimate and can be verified by anyone testing the unit**** Otherwise you are just guessing at the end of the day and you will not end up with the ultimate results WI can and does deliver.

The widely imitated system! original and the best below!


http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6252/mounted1p.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8656/mounted2.jpg

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/9718/mounted3.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/4939/mounted4.jpg


Tank

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/2248/witank1.jpg

This is the thread you need to read about what goes into tuning WI and the recorded results as well, all measured to high precision and no guess work. http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=1590
You WILL NEED a fully adjustable atomizer to get best results and you will NEED to know how much you are injecting as well. otherwise you will get disappointing results and be chasing your tail.

When done right this stuff is magic :)

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Great for giving it a go. Keep us updated to any data logging or results you come up with.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

In my own testing examples I am coming to the point where I am making too much power (for a road car) and it's getting stupidly quick! I did not think I would get to that point, but the more I research followed by long term tests in my own fully instrumented vehicle, the more I am finding the same conclusions Sir Harry Ricardo found in the early 1900's.............. there is indeed no real limit to how much power you can make on Water Injection, and you will reach the practical limits of 2ndary things before you will find the limit of stable combustion

Obviously Harry Ricardo and Frank Walker were on the money, I too have after running my own bank of tests am finding exactly the same. When you follow their guidance (spelling out how to do this correctly) it just opens up another whole world of power and best of all durability that far exceeds what you had when running "less power" :) AMAZING STUFF!

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Great thread. A couple of questions though. (I only got to page 15 + a couple other pages)

Which is better? Directly in front of the turbo vs on the filter head vs anywhere pre-turbo?

Which is better a 80* cone spray or a 160*cone spray?

I have a Garrett 50trim (46lb/min) what size jets should I use? Mainly I want to shift compressor map. I will be boosting around 30psi (which I think is the limit of my turbo), will the water injection pre-turbo help?

Will a separate pump/controller be needed or can it be T-connectored to the post turbo nozzle?

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

I have read all 41 pages of this thread and feel I have increased my knowledge of this subject ten fold!

Is there an ideal distance to mount a pre turbo WI?

I am currently in the middle of building a Mazda rx4 with a bridge ported 13B, BorgWarner s300sx3 turbo. Admittedly it isn't a small turbo but it isn't a big one in my eyes.

Now from what I gather most of the I put says that pre comp WI sees the greater benefits when used on the factory turbos which are to small and are operating outside of their efficiencies? Would I still gain the benefits of pre comp WI on my S300 turbo?

Before I read the info on this thread my major concern from other people was that using pre comp WI was that the water may drop out of suspension in the air when passing through the intercooler, but from what I have read this suggestion has only been mentioned once or twice out of the whole 41 pages!

Am I right in saying that the water will not drop out of the air due to the fact that when the water air mix reaches the IC it will have evaporated in the heat, cooling the charged air, making it more dense (more oxygen) and not actually have the time to form into larger droplets and pool in the IC?

From water I gather spraying WI into the centre of a conduit and not in from the side ( spray hitting the other wall essentially pooling the water)

Would I gain a benefit to run WI after the IC aswell to further cool the air?

I am hoping to run a the WI system that Rice Racing uses as I have discussed a lot of things with him on other forums and he has a rotary application not to dissimilar from mine.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

i to am seriously thinking about doing this after a good read. my only issue is that i'm using a tiny turbo and very short air intake

the compressor intake is only 48mm so fitting a jet right infront will obstruct most of the air intake. Right before the compressor there is a 90 degree bend at 48mm diameter which the outside is to close to the oil filter to fit the jet there pointing at the compressor. But after that bend its 12" of straight 2.5" diameter pipe with the air fitler at the end. My idea was to fit the jet into the end of the air filter pointing straight down that longish intake.

Would that be ok?

also with using the pre turbo setup, i would still like to run a normal setup pre TB, would i be able to just run a T section off the pump to power 2 jets or do i have to run a twin pump configuration? I'm using the Aquamist 2D system and would like if possible to run 50/50 meth/water

Any issues do you think?

thanks

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Has anyone tried using a mist maker to vaporize water mix pre-turbo?

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

anyone??? :)

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

2 jets off a single high pressure pump will work just fine.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

MR2,I have seen several people with cone filters tapped at the top for a nozzle, so I did it myself, and my filter is right at the turbo. See my warm air intake thread.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Hello all,

I'm actualy thinking of installing a preturbo jet to my HFS-3 system.
I actualy run one single 1mm jet just before throttle.
now, where to fit the preturbo jet is the real question.
I understand it is recomended to install it just in front of impeller. But this is a rally car with a 34mm restrictor just in front of inducer. so I don't realy want to restric this area with any extra item (jet).
I'm wondering what is the downside to have the jet close to airfilter ?

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/p...DSC00978fb.jpg

I did this pic before instaling the HFS3 (there is no more BOV now, air filter has been relocated in front of engine bay, but stainless piping is still the same), I've been thinking to install a 0.4mm preturbo jet on the stainless air intake piping you can see on top of exhaust manifold (just next to black rubber piping which goes to air filter) what do you guys think of it ?

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

We have many customers inject pre-compressor now. If it is not possible to inject right before the turbo, then as far away from the turbo will work if it is a smaller jet. You want to try to have the spray evaporate and break down as much as possible before it enters the turbo. Right after the air filter should work. Good luck.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

thanks for your answer, the stainless piping which goes to the turbo inducer is about one meter long. Does it sound far enough ? the jet would be just on the right side of the "TOYOTA" writing. I was wondering if there is any risk of water reforming on piping wall ? what is the max jet size which could be used in this typical area ? could I just plug it on the side of the piping ? of should it be installed in the center of the piping ?

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

There will always be some water that gets on the piping wall, what you need to determine is if this will be an issue. If the air velocity is high and hot and dry, then it should still evaporate off. If it's a cold ambient temp and very humid, then it will have a harder time evaporating. Adding some methanol would help.

You can stick it in the pipe wall this far away from the turbo. The jet size would be by HP and engine size, but I would start with a .3mm or .4mm and see how it goes.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Thank again for your help

Air velocity should be quite high as I start spraying at 0.6 bar boost (TD04l turbo) which happen around 3000 rpm
I live in tropics island, So it is quite Hot most time of the year. average weather temp is 22-30 ?C. It never goes less than 15?C. and it can go up to 35?C in summer peak. Now it is never dry, it is pretty much humid (around 80%) . I plan to use WM50:50

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Hi Guys

Interesting thread..

I have an MR2 turbo...it runs no intercooler for one reason or another..

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-05-13-207.jpg

At present it has a red 0.7 and a green 0.5 jet on the old style aquamist pump...50/50 ethanol/H20 triggered at 6psi.

Engine is bone stock rev2, it runs 20psi boost on a GT3071R with a link G4 ECU on 880cc injectors at around 60% DC, present power is around 350bhp/350lbft

It has been mapped with the methanol/H20 and also runs 95 octane fuel..very happy with the amount of timing advance we could get from the motor with it setup like this, when we mapped the car I still had the small sidemount intercooler and temps with a single 0.7mm jet was fine and even on an ambient 25c day after 1 hour of repeated mapping runs on the motorway we never saw over 35c degrees

As mentioned the intercooler has now been removed and even with the addition of another 0.5mm injector temps are very high and have been recorded at 90c on my datalog, i hope to get this on video but for now i just have a still image


http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e327/TEFUS/G4.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6OX4...ature=youtu.be

I have recently ordered a devils own kit and hope to inject pre turbo as well as using the present kit in its present location, I will update this thread with the findings on the datalog as i go, i am only recording temp just before the TB and I am only interested in reduction of inlet temps at this time.

I thought some of you guys might be interested to see what happens, any ideas as to how much extra H20 I will be able to inject?, will I be able to get down to 30c with H20 alone?

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Second kit added.

Twin tanks in the boot, separate one for each kit
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-02-242.jpg


The Devils-Own injector will be placed looking into the "eye" of the turbo as close to the impeller as possible doing this is not easy....the best position on offer is firing the injector from the wall of the hose so I adapted some mesh to give me the optimum position, lets hope it stays in place and does not offer too much restriction :0

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-01-229.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-01-228.jpg



the injector is just spraying pure water at the moment and hopefully will help lower temps a bit closer to 30c, this injector should flow circa 400cc per min
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-01-230.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-01-234.jpg


Air filter in position
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-01-238.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-02-243.jpg



After a test drive in cooler conditions that the last test the inlet temp has dropped by circa 40c
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...er19psimax.png
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEX08...ature=youtu.be


Ambient temp was 16c, injection trigger point for the Aquamist system (post turbo) was dropped to 4psi, Devils system (pre turbo) was triggered at 2psi and ramps up to max flow at 19psi (boost sensative progressive system)

Boost temps were seen to be around 40c, I never saw 50c on the test but I could not pull max RPM on a wet road and ambient temps were quite low.

I will try for a slightly larger injector soon!

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

A 40 celcius drop in temp by just adding water is brilliant. Very interested to see what results you will net by playing with different nozzle sizes and if you run WM50/50 pre turbo. The results you are showing are indicating that temps can be run low enough without the need for intercooling at all.

Has the elimination of the IC reduce turbo lag? If you had any that is?

Are you running this car on the road?

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Yes I intend to play with Ethanol mixture soon...I am going to rely on the Devils kit alone due to the pressure it runs at and add an injector just after the compressor where the present Aquamist injectors are and run a 50/50 mixture....or maybe I should run everything pre turbo?

The car is a daily drive and runs very well like this..it seems to have less lag than before too but I have no data on this until I get to the dyno.

For more info on this car please see.
http://www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtop...264&highlight=

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

You will be able to see whether or not if you need the post turbo injectors by disconnecting it and going for a drive and logging everything.

Rice racing on here will be able to give any advice about pre turbo injection as he's been running that for a while on his rx7. He uses a water/methanol blend 50/50 by weight iirc injected preturbo. He is running up to 35psi on his T04Z which is prety much the turbos limit without overspeeding it.

You may also want to try moving the pre turbo injector further away from the turbo so that the atomised water can help cool the air being sucked in even more. That is If you have the space.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

You will be able to see whether or not if you need the post turbo injectors by disconnecting it and going for a drive and logging everything.

Rice racing on here will be able to give any advice about pre turbo injection as he's been running that for a while on his rx7. He uses a water/methanol blend 50/50 by weight iirc injected preturbo. He is running up to 35psi on his T04Z which is prety much the turbos limit without overspeeding it.

You may also want to try moving the pre turbo injector further away from the turbo so that the atomised water can help cool the air being sucked in even more. That is If you have the space.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

@ TFS.

You do realise that mesh screen will be posing a huge restriction to airflow. Get rid of it !

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

TFS, is the end of the filter metal or filter? I tapped the end of a motorcycle filter and used it for summer preturbo work. My filter wasn't as large or long as yours, but with the airflow that should be incoming, and not through-flowing, fluid contact with the side should be less likely, unless your hobbs switch gets set to open the solenoid before the spray starts :(

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Guys I am unsure of how much of a restriction that actually represents...it the mesh is more corse than say an AFM?, air filter has a rubber end..

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Just some general info; Sometimes the open area of a screen cannot be equated to the airflow through that screen.

If you look at a normal household window(insect) screen, typical in the US, they will generally cut airflow by 50% through an opening. All screens are a bit different, but the numbers are sometimes surprising.

The screen in the pic appears to be a bit more coarse, but it could be a significant restriction.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

OK I removed the screen and fitted the injector at the filter end....not happy with the distance from the compressor but until I have something custom made thats not going to change.

Thanks for the advice.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

dont take what i say as gospel but from what i understand by reading the posts made by people on here, having the injector further away from the turbo should further reduce the intake temps, i think its to do with the atomisation of the water, water droplet size taking heat out of the water air mix. so long as the droplets size is small you shouldnt get any problems with compressor wheel damage

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Ok so the next stage I took was the removal of the Aquamist system and I added twin injectors to the Devils system, 600cc pre turbo, 400cc post turbo (D04/D05)

I relocated the pre turbo injector to the end of the air filter, this we know is not ideal, I hope to change this soon.

Water injection supply lines were rerouted away from heat source.

Post turbo injector 400cc (D04)
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-14-276.jpg

Devils progressive controller pic to be added.

Pre turbo injection position to be added.#






Datalog..
http://www.screencast.com/users/mono...0-ab44e89ddcc0


Ambient temps were back up to 22c and this is the first daytime datalog after my one last night was lost due to incompetence lol

I used a 38/62 ethanol/water mixture and I was surprised that if anything temperatures were higher than the previous run...yes ambient temps were 4c higher than the previous test but I saw almost 70c at one point at the very top of the RPM range at circa 130mph?...in general temps were around the 50c mark on boost.

I thought a total of 250cc extra liquid was injected on this run but I had incorrect advice as to the flow rates of the injectors

I planned to inject a mixture of 78% alcohol* rather than the 38% we had in the last run to test this theory.



The temp did not drop and after a close look at the injector flow rates
https://www.alcohol-injection.com/images/flowchart.gif
and it seems I am simply not injecting much more liquid than my previous tests...only 750cc per min total, another injector is planned for the next test to bring injected amount closer to 1150cc per min




*due to a lack of ethanol I am using a small amount of isopropanol in the ethanol/water mix to bump up the alcohol content.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

I think the D05 is your problem. DVLDOC has said to stay D02 or lower pre-turbo

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Interesting, I did wonder if there is a limit to how much I can add pre compressor but I thought if looking to reduce inlet temps the more mix I put through the turbo the better?

Also I have been told by Devils own to double the flow rating on the injectors if using their 250psi pump but I have also been told by a user that this is not true and I should go with the original ratings...if the latter is true it explains a lot because I wouldn't be injecting any more than my last test and TBH I have had very similar results....

Sure I have had a higher inlet temp at 7000rpm but due to a wet road I was unable to test above 5000rpm on the previous test so we cannot compare at over 5000rpm.

The D02 would work out at only 120cc in that case...a very small amount for pre compressor?

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

The 2 gph is at 100 psi. The flow will be greater at 250 psi. it's not double, but it is greater.

https://www.alcohol-injection.com/images/flowchart.gif

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

So in total about 750cc going by that graph eh.

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

The D04/D05 injectors are moved back to the injection points I was using with the Aquamist system...I adapted the injectors for straight fitment at this time.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-22-285.jpg








Rear view of injection point/s

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-22-286.jpg







Fitted.
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-22-289.jpg








http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-22-300.jpg







D05 pre injector moved back to the turbo entry point..I set it back about 1/2 inch from the turbo
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-22-304.jpg







Dump valve added
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-22-293.jpg





http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e327/TEFUS/run4.png



The engine bogged and misfired on this run with well over 1000cc per min being injected, temps were closer to 40c on this run and hit a max of 46c on an extended high speed run at near 130mph, I would have liked to have added a full datalog for this run but I am having trouble using the screen recording software.

I played with different mixture settigns but the misfire would not clear...it seems that either the mixture was simply too rich (dipping under 10.0/1) or had too much water content to ignite.

With the coilpack dwell time being too high as it is I will need to get the car remapped to take the extra fuel into account...for the moment I will drop a jet size for around 900c per min and take some more measurements.

I may also use more smaller jets amounting to the same injected amount to offer a more atomised mixture to the inlet to help drop temps even more...I dont know how much of a drop this can provide but right now anything is worth a shot!

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

I fitted two more injection sites in the turbo scroll and fitted much smaller D075 injectors in those areas...the idea was to give a more even distribution of cooling mix within the turbo and reduce the chances of dropout on the walls of the turbo whilst also taking advantage of the very slightly better atomisation that a smaller injector/s provides.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-27-348.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e3...-06-27-351.jpg



The pre turbo injector has now been reduced to a D04.


I took the car for a test run last night and although the WI system was providing something like 25% less coolant/mixture and ambient temps were higher than previous tests at around 21c the inlet never went over 50c even on an extended high speed run....something is working a LOT better here!

The mixture was set at around 50/50 (water/ethanol) and another factor I should mention is that the dump valve was also leaking quite a bit...I am sure this only would have made the turbo work harder and increased inlet temps so now that has been repaired I may get some datalog tonight.

Methanol has not arrived yet..

Re: Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers
 

Anyone any interest in this ?

http://www.evo-host.co.uk/getimg/29348.jpg

After a little grinding and filing

http://www.evo-host.co.uk/getimg/29349.jpg

I'm not saying it's perfect, but its cheap.

I had it cut from 4mm thick aluminium and all legs are 4mm thick also.. This one is 102mm OD so it's a snug fit inside my air intake pipe.
I made the external legs 10mm, these can be cut down. Idea being drill a hole into the silicone tube and these legs will secure the fitting from going anywhere.
Again cheap and easy to use.

Just trim and adapt as necessary. Could get them made in other diameters if anyone interested ?
Or could have legs reduced to a smaller size, I was just paranoid about strength so opted for 4mm. 2-3mm would probably do fine.

This is my first attempt at pre-compressor, although I'm also spraying a lot pre throttle as well. Centrifugal supercharger application