Flickering blue light ?
 

Whilst driving at varying throttle, I have noticed that 'B' light
flickering as I slowly apply more throttle from cruise. If I continue
to apply more throttle the light will go out briefly and then come
back on solidly. There may also be a short orange blip from what
I believe is the water level LED. The tank is full so not 'low'

The setup of the gauge may not be perfect in terms of the number
of bars lit while spraying, but I do get 4-5 bars when I am hard on
the gas. In all other respects the system is working fine.

So, does the flickering indicate I need to do some adjusting, or is
it telling me that there is a problem ?

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Reason I ask is that a month or so ago it was doing this flickering and one day
after I parked and turned the key off, I noticed that the pump was running ??
After investigating I found that the pump relay contacts had burned out and the
relay was not always disengaging when powered down. Replaced the relay and
no more flickering for a couple of weeks. Now it has started happening again.

So I'm wondering if the flickering light correlates with the pump relay getting a
"flickering" control signal ??

My injection initiates at around 14% IDC which is only just above my highway
cruising speed. If I get a bit of head wind or reach a slight rise the system will
be hovering on the verge of spraying. Logs show flowmeter counts of 1 or 2 for
a few seconds sometimes before I either accelerate of back off the throttle.

Could pump pulsation at very low injection rates cause the flickering light ??

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

alter the THRES a little later.May be it is a bit too early?

question:
1. the serial number of the system
2. where is the pump installed?

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

I have been thinking about setting the THRES a bit higher as my current
bypass valve setup seems to be keeping inlet temps under control much
better than the earlier setups I had.

Are the small pots fully variable or do they have to be set at the marked
positions ?? Can I increase by half a click instead of full click ??

The pump is installed in the trunk with the motor on top and the pump head
level with the bottom of the tank. The pump has a dedicated power supply
from the battery directly to the pump relay.

I don't have the serial number to hand, but it is the HFS3-v3.1 system and
your invoice is #2171

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Found it it was May 2016 when you ordered the system.

You wrote:
Are the small pots fully variable or do they have to be set at the marked
positions ?? Can I increase by half a click instead of full click ??

answer: it is continuously variable.

where did you wire the little red wire on the grey connector?

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

The small red wire on the grey plug is connected to a common relay switched
12V power supply that is activated when the key is switched to the ON position.
This relay also supplies switched power to...
1. the engine ECU
2. an Innovate LC-1 WBO2 and DB gauge
3. a small relay coil that is switched to ground by the ECU to generate a back
emf voltage spike for drive my tachometer
4. the ISCV
5. the HFS-3 control unit
6. the HFS-3 alarm relay (white wire grey plug) I use this to turn on a LED on
the dash to tell me that the system is spraying (via the brown wire grey plug)

The green wire on the grey plug is connected to the ECU side of injector #4.
Previously this was connected to an ECU AUX output programmed to mimic
IDC. But when I upgraded the injectors and went to full sequential I needed
the AUX output as an injector driver.

As I recall, I did change some settings (THRES and GAIN) on the HFS-3 at
the time I fitted the new injectors, so it is quite possible that I have messed
up the settings. I will alter the THRES setting tomorrow and make a test to
see if there is any change.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

27-02-19 existing setting as base. Injection initiates ~ 14% IDC. Flickering.
28-02-19 plus 1/2 click on THRES. Injection initiates ~ 17% IDC. No change.
01-03-19 plus 1 click on THRES. Injection initiates ~ TBA. Test deferred.

Deferred raising THRES as I need to get on the motorway to monitor MAT
vs IDC at constant speed. Will do that when I get a chance. But I did have
a short drive to try a few different settings of WL and WH. Tried them both
at 12 o'clock and then with WL full ACW and WH full CW... neither affected
the flickering, but did change the failsafe behavior.

My log shows that the system is becoming active (showing flowmeter output)
at IDC levels below the nominal 17% IDC initiate THRES setting. In several
places I can see flowmeter output values of 1, 2 or 3 continuously for periods
when the IDC is at 13-14%, particularly when the throttle is being gradually
opened. With more rapid opening of the throttle the flowmeter indicates a
"clean" turn on and a clean cutoff at around 17-18% IDC.

This suggests that the pump turns on before the FAV becomes active, and
that "leakage" past the valve is ocurring ? Does the pump have some
hysterisis to make sure it is up to speed by the time the FAV initiates ?

I also noted that the water level light is illuminating for around 3 seconds
pretty much every time I apply a decent amount of throttle to initiate spray.
But I can't tell if the onset of spray is delayed until the light goes out ?

If it helps, the only thing I haven't done that may be pertinent, is add the
solder blob to change the flowmeter resolution. I am running two jets
(1 x 0.7 and 1 x0.4B) with the 380cc/min FAV restrictor.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Link FDC and tell me if the gauge displays full bars at WOT. I like to know of you are using full FiDC or not. This result of the test will tel me what is the best approach to your settings.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

There is a video showing what the gauge does here (FIDC link installed)...
https://youtu.be/HqtZys_-PwY
That is a second gear pull WOT to fuel cut at 8000rpm. Sorry about the
camera being upside down but I had to attach it to the handbrake and
couldn't get it properly lined up. You can see the lights OK though :)

Here is the data from my log of the run.
RPM vs IDC vs flowmeter count

5000...42.6...28
5500...49.8...39
6000...57.6...40
6500...63.7...42
7000...68.6...44
7500...76.8...43
8000...80.0...43

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

you must not allow the bars go beyond 6 bars. Once the failsafe triggers, the boost will reduce and the B light will go blink. Try reading the user manual. Learn the set up the system yourself.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

That test is with the FIDC linkde as you requested. Without the link the bars
do not even reach six and none of the failsafe/warning lights are activated.

The flickering of the blue light that I refer to occurs just at the onset of boost
and before even the first bar (LHS) is lit. As boost increases the flickering stops
the "B" light turns on solid and the bars will be lit progressively until 4 bars (or
sometimes 5 briefly) are lit. In all other respects the system appears to be
operating as expected.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Lets go a bit further, what is the fuel injector size and the power of the engine. In other word, are you using the full capacity of the fuel injector?
... Also the water jets size, if is quite small, you may need to change the flow table.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Injectors are RC SL9-550cc/min and hit 80%IDC at fuel cut. The engine
boosts to 200kPa(abs) and is above 170kPa from around 4000rpm to
8000rpm. According to my logs the flowmeter is showing slightly higher
peak flow now than it was with the previous 440cc/min injectors. This is
most likely because the engine iis still running rich at WOT as I have not
yet trimmed back fuel flow to compensate for the added W-M spray.

I will need to check my nozzle selection, as the 380cc/min FAV restrictor
may have reached its limit. The figures I listed above look as if flow is no
longer following IDC at higher rpm's.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

I have recalculated my nozzle selection based on the larger injectors and
the resulting slightly lower IDC at redline. The current combination of
1 x 0.7 + 1 x 0.4B should deliver a W/M to fuel ratio of 17%. This is a bit
less than the target of 20% that I use on account of running without an
intercooler. If I change the 0.4B for a 0.5 nozzle, the ratio would improve
to 21% and I can trim that as required with the GAIN control.

With the 0.7 + 0.5 combination, the estimated W/M flow rate into the
engine will be ~365cc/min @ 80% IDC. This is still within the 380cc/min
flow rating of the 0.5 FAV restrictor. How close is too close ??

I expect to be able to use a THRES value of 18% as due to improvements
to the s/c bypass, the engine now runs cooler than it did a year ago

Regards... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Just a thought and I don't know if it is relevant. But prior to installing the
larger injectors I was providing a PWM signal that mimiced IDC from an aux
output on my ECU. I changed this to a direct IDC pickup from an injector
negative because I needed the aux output for another purpose.

Thus there will now be a back EMF spike reaching the HFS-3 controller that
was not present previously. Could this cause the light to flicker before IDC
reaches the trigger point for W/M injection ??

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

I think removing the restrictor is essential.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

I think it is the frequency change. HFS3 is much happier if the PWM frequency is above 80Hz. the duty update for a multi-point sequential fuel signal is quite slow. Perhaps this is the issue all along.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Good call :) I changed the 0.5 to a 0.7 restrictor and straight away I could
see more bars lighting up on a trip to the mall. So the 0.5 was definitely
holding back some flow. I will need to make a log to see what impact this
has on W/M flow into the engine. Then I can decide if I need to change the
nozzle size.

Changing back to using a PWM signal from the ECU would mean changing
back from full sequential ignition to wasted spark to free up an AUX output.
I'd rather not do that if the flickering light is not causing any harm to the
controller.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

No more spare PWM outputs?

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Not at the moment, but if I revert to wasted spark ignition that will
free one up. I'll most likely give that a trial next weekend. If there is
no performance difference (and there shouldn't be) I'll run it like that
and see if it resolves the flickering light issue.

EDIT: Made a couple of logs today and after looking at them I am of
the opinion that the flickering does correspond to the pump "simmering"
due to the pump relay being intermittently triggered. And as I have a
spare non-PWM AUX output I think I shall try using that to trigger the
pump relay e.g. turn the pump ON @ 18% and OFF @ 14% IDC. This
will ensure that the pump turns ON without simmering.

The blue light and the transistor in the HSF-3 that turns on the relay
will still be twitching, but I don't think that will cause any harm ??

The only unknown and possible flaw with this plan is that the HSV may
still be twitching, and that may not be good ??

The reason for changing plans is that I only recently finished rewiring
the ignition setup for individual coils and sequential firing. I would prefer
to keep that setup if this new plan can protect the pump and relay from
the intermittent triggering.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

you can send the controller back to me and I can increase the hysteresis or take more samples on the incoming idc signal.

Only the relay contacts will be affected.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Thanks for the offer Richard. I have a couple of events coming up and
I need to get the W/M injection dialled in. So I will try controlling the relay
with my ECU first. It is an easily reversible modification and essentially
just open circuits your relay control wiring and switches control to the ECU
by running a single new wire.

If need be I can take up your offer or change back to wasted spark later
in the year. But providing I can get a clean turn ON and OFF for the pump
the system should work fine.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

System is working as expected with a clean turn ON. However, even with the
GAIN set to maximum CW the flowmeter count shows that flow is pretty much
flatlined. There is a very slight rise, but flow is not tracking IDC. From this I
conclude that the installed nozzles are at their maximum flow and I need to
step up one size ??

No problem, I can do that. At the moment I can just control MAT rise on cooler
days and I would like to have a bit of capacity in hand for warmer weather.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

You need a large nozzle to extend your flow range. Increasing the GAIN only flattens the flow earlier (dotted red line). Image extracted from the user manual. please read the manual as there are many information regarding your application.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/GAIN trimmer.gif

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

I have read the manual many times and have a reasonable understanding
of the function of the controls. What is not immediately apparent to a user
such as myself, is how the controls and hardware interact to affect W/M
delivery.

In this case, with the small FAV restrictor flow did track IDC. But when
I changed to the larger restrictor it did not, although flow was well short
of 95% IDC. I expected that increasing the GAIN would have the effect
shown in the graph only this did not happen.

After checking my logs I can see that installing the larger restrictor did not
increase W/M delivery at higher IDC. But did increase delivery at lower IDC,
and I conclude that flow is now being controlled by the size of the nozzles
rather than by changes in IDC.

As you say, and no doubt it is obvious to experienced users, increasing the
nozzle size is the next step. I am still learning about these things :)

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Changed the 04b to a 0.50 nozzle and the flowmeter count now
follows IDC (+/-). However MAT is not being controlled so well as
with the previous "choked" W/M delivery. I put this down to the
fact that with the smaller nozzle delivery went immediately to near
maximum output, and remained at that level as IDC increased.

I think that this put more mix into the intake ducting at initiation
and helped reduce the temperature of the heat soaked intake
ducting. Now the system initiates at a lower flow rate and ramps
up, so that it takes a bit longer to overcome the effects of heat
soak. I have only done a couple of short low gear pulls so far
that are inconclusive.

Tomorrow I will find a place where I can do a longer 4th gear pull
and see if the MAT goes up and then starts to reduce once the
intake ducting has been exposed to the spray for a few seconds.

Cheers... jondee86

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

With careful matching you should achieve this:

Magenta = PWM input
cyan = signal from flow sensor (-0.5V offset)

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/NEW/FAV-log.jpg

More info: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum2/vbu...ead.php?t=2733

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

We can supply a fully matched system but it will be costly. The FAV orifice will be constructed for a specific flow range. It is mainly for OE application on one model of car.

The restrictor is a good compromise for lower flow. If you are flowing in the region 500-1000cc/min, the standard system performs well.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

In you case, you need a lo-flow FAV and flow sensor, You are operating slightly outside the ideal range.

You can run two jets, one jet (with inline CV) goes back to the water tank. Other than this I cannot see a good solution.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

In the region of 12-14%, hysteresis is as as effective as the incoming IDC signal sampling rate is slow. Solution: use your ECU to output a PWM signal at 200Hz or more. We have now gone full circle.

Does your dash gauge have two yellow leds so to distinguish between water level and failsafe trigger? You also need to reduce the WL (CCW) to avoid failsafe triggering.

Worth linking 1&2 on the flow table as it will give your a better resolution in you low operation range.

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

what is the maximum F-IDC% you are running now? if it is not near 90%, you may need to rescale the incoming iDC so the THRES is more effective at the lower end.
Try set the IDC prescaler to x1.25

Re: Flickering blue light ?
 

Thanks Richard. I now have a better understanding of how the system
works and how the controls and hardware choices interact. I accept that
my application as it currently sits is not ideal for the HFS-3. So for the
moment I have reverted to my original restrictor/nozzle setup and using my
ECU to switch the pump relay. This allows flow to vary with IDC sufficiently
well for my purpose... namely provide some charge cooling in the absence
of an intercooler.

Fortunately, the engine can be driven quite hard without the W/M system
operating, as I discovered today when I went for a test drive and forgot to
activate the AUX output for the pump when I loaded an old tune :o:o

I shall now review what I have learned from swapping things around over
the last month, do some more testing and then decide how to configure the
system to give me the best result.

Cheers... jondee86