Injecting high concentrations of alky?
A couple of us have started talking about this topic in another thread, to preserve the content of the other thread I'd like to continue the topic here.
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wet1,
I have done my best to clean the other thread up and let me know if I missed anything. It is much better to divide the thread up or it will get very confused if more people joins in later. |
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Please post the schematic as I'm not familiar with this. While your notion to just add 20% methanol to the gas tank sounds like a simple solution, IMO it gets away from some of the ideals of AI. First, methanol is pretty corrosive. A 20% concentration in most fuel systems would certainly create problems. Second, it would be a major PITA to try mixing proper ratios at the fuel station every fill-up. Third, it would be far more expensive since you'd use a lot more methanol. The nice thing about AI is you only use the alky when it's needed (under boost), if mixed in the fuel tank you'd be using the methanol all the time. BTW, you wouldn't add a 50/50 mix to your fuel tank would you? :D While I totally agree that even distribution is a concern, but I have yet to hear of this being a problem in application. Some of the turbo Regal guys are shooting large amounts w/o any issues. As you know the alky is discharged in a very fine mist, as long as it's injected with a reasonable distance away from the intake manifold, there should be pretty even distribution. IMO, the same holds true with water, not just methanol as a fuel (and it is also a coolant). Many people rely on water to keep the engine from detonating... so it holds true for both alky and water. Look at wet NOS systems, many use a single nozzle to inject the required fuel and you rarely hear of problems with a single lean cylinder when shooting reasonable amounts. There are thousands of wet single nozzle NOS systems running on the streets w/o issue. I agree a direct port system is the way to go, but unless you're heavily relying on the methanol (or water) I see no problem with a single or dual nozzle system downstream of the manifold. You would know far more about blockage than I would, but I would think using a dual nozzle system would highly reduce the fear of engine failure since the likelihood for both nozzles becoming clogged at the same time is pretty unlikely. Using a single nozzle system, I've never had any problems with clogs (knock on wood), but I filter everything that goes into my system. I also press a test button before I make a heavy load run to make sure the alky system is working properly, it's habit now. Either way, I don't think it's fair to say blockage is much more (or less) of a concern with AI vs. WI... they are both being used to keep things safe when pushed to the limit. Again, look at the wet NOS systems? no issues there. I guess you could even say the same for direct injectors, there?s still the possibility of clogs or failure. I think today?s AI / WI systems are pretty crude, but they work. I suspect people like yourself will develop much more advanced systems in the future with stand-alone computer interfaced into the ECU running direct port injectors. We already have everything on the market to build such a system, it will just take someone to put it all together... and for people to realize how incredible AI systems truly are. I'm amazed it's taken so many years for AI/WI to catch on given all the benefits it offers, yet so many people do not believe in them. Once they really take off more advanced systems will certainly follow, and you?re right? they will be more than $399! BTW, regarding the Shurflo pumps? I didn?t know there was a concern of seal failure. I?ve been using mine for years with 90% methanol and no problems. Most of the TR guys are using straight methanol (or ethanol) with no problems either. I do know Julio at Alky Control has come up with some new seals if there?s a concern (Teflon?) but I haven?t seen a need to change mine. Then again, how much can you expect from a $70 pump??? :D |
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I think you might have removed to much content out of the nitro thread... your posts had mixed content (nitro chat as well as straight alky chat). I removed most of the nitro info out of the above quotes for this thread. I guess it really doesn't matter either way. :wink: Thanks again, Scot |
I have found the thread about methanol in tank, posted by John Banks:
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/vie...highlight=#478 He has found 10% of methanol in tank produce better power than injected in the inlet tract. Apart from the problem of mixing, it appear it is one way it can work. As regarding corrosion, oxygenated fuel is used widely and I cannot see corrosion is a limiting factor and these fuels are available. I think we are slowly moving away from water injection as we approach alcohol injection at high concentrations- the alcohol will become a fuel as well as a anti-detonant. The role it plays is now more critical and and cannot be compared to just injecting water since water was never used as a fuel. If knock is the only remining safety comparison between alcohol and water to suppress knock, if either component is lost, the knock sensor will kick into action and made the engine safe. But if you loose fuel (alcohol), there is no inbuild safeguard, unless all enignes have an EGT sensor. Since the alcohol has only half amount of latent heat than water, and half the energy of gasoline, you really need to inject four times as much compare to just "gasoline + water". I am not sure how you meter your 20% fuel/alcohol ratio, but if the method is accurate, it will open a door for more alcohol injection systems because one can make reasonable calculations on paper, the results can be used to producing a more advanced alky injection system. Not a black art privy to a only few alky-gurus. I cannot see any point mixing it with water at all. I am interested in such a system but why not just inject toluene or bezene. You can use a fuel pump, conventional fuel line, conventional fuel injectors etc. Do you think there is a failsafe alky system on the market at present? until a company can guarantee a nozzle will never be blocked I can't see it will gain credibilty. I will only make some electrical drawings as and not mechanically because there is a small of risk of fire if the methanol fume escape from the trunk tank into the passenger compartment on a hot day can easily cause some fire hazard problem. I must be very careful before I work on a 100% alcohol system. |
Wet1,
I must add this - I am not trying to dis-credit alky injection, I think is it is a good idea as highlighed by you. I have also been bomdarded with many requests that we should produce one ASAP. I have made my view clear on many occasions and try to voice my problems in creating such a system - I still don't know if it can be competitive since there are systems out there such as Coolmist selling a Shurflo system for 159 dollars. |
I agree adding methanol to the fuel system will work, but it?s not practical IMO. The way I see it, if you?re going to go this route, you might as well go with toluene, race gas, or Torco. Also, the oxygenated fuel that is now used widely is done with ethanol, not methanol. Methanol is far more corrosive than ethanol.
You?re correct that if a WI or AI system fails the knock sensors will retard timing. If the engines are relying very heavily on WI/AI, there?s a good chance the knock sensors will not be able to save the engine from detonation. I personally set my base tune around a 12.5:1 a/f ratio w/o alky so in the event my AI fails, there?s not a fear of my engine going overly lean. Some people rely heavily on their WI/AI and if it fails the engine is toast? doesn?t matter if it?s WI or AI at that point IMO. Sorry, my 20% figure was an estimate. I base this on my usage on road racing tracks. Much of my track time is at WOT so I make this assumption based on gas/alky ussage. Call it black magic. My system is boost referenced and progressive. This is completely controllable by me, not some POS on/off cheap $159 kit. The reason I like injecting methanol over toluene is methanol drastically lowers the IAT? toluene will not. They both will increase the octane level of the fuel, but the huge IAT drop that alky offers is SO beneficial for FI applications. Many people are finding that methanol is so effective at dropping IAT that they are no longer using intercoolers to cool the air charge which has obvious benefits. Methanol may have only half the amount of latent heat reduction than water does, but water will not reduce IAT anywhere nearly as much as methanol. This drastic reduction in IAT with methanol equates to highly reduced chance of detonation. In a nutshell, water and methanol both reduce latent heat and reduce the air charge temps, but water is better a reducing latent heat while methanol is better at reducing IAT. Toluene can?t compare to either in these regards. No, I do not think there?s a failsafe system on the market. Until a system has some type of feedback system integrated to the factory ECM, the system will not be failsafe. I think AI/WI is quickly catching on in the world of FI, but it?s going to take time for it to grow. The cheap kits on the market are functional, but will never be accepted by an serious enthusiast. The AI/WI kit must be completely controllable for it to be accepted by tuners. Working with straight alky does have some risks. If a tank must be mounted inside the passenger compartment, I would recommend using a small fuel cell (like you would with gas). Otherwise, I wouldn?t worry so much if the tank is mounted outside the passenger compartment. Alky is flammable, but it also evaporates very quickly. I?ve squirted straight alky on hot headers and it just evaporates. This is not to say there?s not a risk of fire? there is, but I don?t think it?s a major concern. If you want to be technical about it, just about all the fluids in your car are flammable. The best you can do is have a robust system to minimize the chance of problems. Safe container, SS lines, good fittings, check valves? BUT, these things cost money. The $159 kits you mentioned do not include these items, you get what you pay for. Many of these kits are not boost or MAF referenced and are not progressive in nature? these are MUSTS IMO. Personally, I wouldn?t consider installing a system in my car unless I thought it would be top quality, safe, very controllable, and reliable. These things don?t come cheap. The general public just won?t accept anything less in a good kit. I think there?s only one kit on the market that IMO that comes close to meeting these criteria, and it is still about $500. Scot |
pumps and seal life
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Larry |
I totally agree with you that any system without a failsafe mechanism, it will not be taken seriously. But the majority of Joe Public will go for cheap system, frequent engine failure will eventually give the WI/AL a bad name and the concept will start to fade away.
Before we embarked on the water injection market in the late 80s, we researched the water injection market and only found a handfull of washer pump based system that didn't really work very reliably. Despite that, we decided to go for a quality system, regardless of market trend. Water injection in those days were being dismissed as a "band-aid" and not a proper tuning tool. Nevertheless we kept going and slowly the confidence returns and market demand grew. Within the last year or two, the low cost systems started to creep back in again. But this time, people have a choice. The A/I market may following the same fate as the early WI market if "safesafe" mechanism is not incorporated soon. Delivery of the alcohol need to be improved as well, tracking the MAP sensor voltage to speed up or slowing the injection pump is not a way to provide progressive flow rate, motor RPM doesn't translate into actual flow at all. Don't be fooled by this method when vendors are claiming a progressive system. I do have a question for you, how does your progressive system work? please share it with us - I have been looking for a way to produce such a sysrtem and hope to discard the expensive highspeed valve altogether - we can be competitive again and offset the terrible "strong pound stirling" against the "weak dollar" at present. |
Larry,
I have my pump mounted behind one of rear my wheels on the Porsche so heat isn't a concern for me. I think I'll mount the pump behind my front wheel on the C5 when I do that one... the C5 has a great covered spot there. I also have it rigged as an intermitent system that only goes to full pressure when the AI is triggered. These could be important factors for increased pump/seal life. Scot |
Richard,
I have to think anyone with half a brain would see the difference between the cheap kits and the better kits that contain important performance and safety features. I think you'll find the people buying the cheap kits are the ricers... remember, 'natural selection' is a good thing. :lol: Seriously, people don't mind paying more for a better product, if it's truly better... I know I don't mind. There will always be 'cheap' products, don't compete with those guys... that's not the matket you want, think premium. Either way, AI/WI is here to stay, it's only going to grow. While I agree using a MAP sensor to vary AI output is not ideal, IMO it is somewhat progressive and far superior to the cheaper "on/off" systems. As boost increases so does AI output. It's very similar to the cheap FMU some of the aftermarket forced induction suppliers include / included in there kits. The FMU's are nothing more than a boost referenced FPR. Crude? Yes, but it does work to a certain degree. I'm using a GM MAP sensor with an Alky Control PAC to control my system. The PAC has the "Ability to electronically adjust turn-on point, initial pump speed pressure, and ramp gain of final pump speed pressure using any 12volt injection pump." Far from the ideal system, but it has worked great for me. Ideally I'd love to see a 3D mappable computer to control output hit the market. I guess it's only a matter of time before a DFI type AI kit hits the streets. While this would be ideal, what I'm using now has been working great for me... I don't think I'd need anything more. BUT, I can only imagine what some of the serious tuners would do with a mappable system. :cool: I'm going to be out of town for a few days... take care guys. :wink: Scot |
Richard alot of people out there who know aquamist products know the quality and the engineering that goes into the products.
Hey look at me m car is a suzuki swift Gti which i turbo'd i could have bought a cheapo kit and used it but no i heard about your product from my local dealer i researched the product and i paid the price of admission. Granted the water injection kit is worth close to the price of the car :D But its the quality that i go for ... people ask me why i bought such an expensive product i tell them this " YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR " Simple. I'm currently waiting on the DDS3 Richard ! |
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Suzuki turboed by yourself - you have to be pretty serious to go into that depth. I have found engineering very challenging indeed and very satisfying when things go to tegether nicely. The DDS3 is not that far away, I will let you know the minute it is avaliable. |
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I consider yourself as a pretty serious guy on technical issues. If you are happy with what you have already and would not be considering a better system, that is little chance that you are going to try our system if it is made available - either way it is working well, why change. It is a pity that there are so many people out there respond to marketing hypes - buying something at half price and think they are getting a bargain. I assure you that they are not -99.9% of the time they are wrong, but they are convinced that they are the in "0.1%" group all the time. It doesn't really matter if if you are injecting water or alcohol, it is just a personal preference, the two concepts are totally different. At 50% mix - they become one. It is always the two ends that causes debate and sometimes war of words, totally pointless. I think the common ground is the equipment used - but if the equipment cannot deliver a fluid at a predictable rate, you simply cannot compare the results. There are thousands of SAE papers available to read but I am certain that you will find "none" that compares the two concepts in one study. I don't think either of us have the resources to do such a study - at least I know I cannot afford it. I really hope you are right about AI/WI concept will grow. :razz: Here are a few links if you are interested: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/reference/refer.html |
Richard,
You mentioned that the HSV uses the same seals as the pump. Does that mean that regardless of the pump and its seals, we would still be limited by the HSV? I would like to try running 100% methanol or 100% ethanol for example... |
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Methanol: 50%- long term 75% medium term (a week or two) 75% -95% -short term (a day) -people have done it longer than this, but I have not tested it in the dynamic conditions. I have tested it at 100% in static conditions and cannot detect any ill effects - six months or so. Ethanol: strictly no more than 5% at any period. Over 10% shown signs of absorption and started to affect the designed piston/seal tolerances - piston-seal wear will acceleralate. If you can re-seal the pump yourself, it will coat you 20 cents per seal. Isopropanyl: 25% is fine long term. Every part of the aquamist pump is replaceable - part veried between 10 cent to 50 dollars (complete centre tube). On occasion when water got inside the pump and causes massive corrosion, it is much cheaper to exchange the old pump for a new one at 50% of the retail price -after warranty period. The most import thing to remember - try not to place the pump in direct path of water splash - I bet no manufacturer would put an engine management system that way. It almost all cases, we replace the pump under warranty under a year even it shown signs of water splash - the surface of the casing is a good story teller. I believe I have sent you a pump centre tube recently with a complete set teflon interbnnal seals - you can try to run anything you want with it - It is experiemental for us and you will be well supported |
Yes, I did receive the new center tube - thank you.
I was hoping the HSV could hold up longer, but it seems to me you're saying even with my new teflon seal pump I still can't run 100% methanol because of the HSV...is there a way to upgrade the HSV components as well? |
The HSV is made of a different material with higher resistance to methanol but it is not possible to change the seal of the HSV to teflon due to their functions. May research into other materials in the future if we decided to go for 100% alcohol injection. Until then you got the best we can offer for the moment.
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Yes, you can. 75% is no problem.
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Also, I just wanted to say that this is a really great thread and it has convinced me that I need a quality system for the setup I want. I will have to peruse Aquamist's products a bit more. I appreciate the extraordinate amount of tech and customer support made available by this forum; it speaks volumes of the kind of company Aquamist is. |
HI wet1 Hi Richard
Well I hope that it won't be just a dream... also something moooore... :smile: It is almost all what there was on to say about the topic... except from the price :cool: and how to get Alcohols for big engines... but I'm also working on... Prometeus never stops!!! Good news when I'll get Back... Something that sounds like Kane 's spot: "I'm Baaaaaack...." :wink: Regards Daniele |
Hi new to this forum, but a query for Richard.
I see mention of Shurflo pumps, and of course your own Aquamist pump here. I have fitted one Snow kit to a friends Subaru, and from what I gather it runs much higher pressure ( up to 200psi ) and appears to have much greater flow ability than the aquamist pump. I think the Shurflo is capable of flowing more than 1000cc/min, which I think they claim is a good number to start with for an engine making in excess of about 500bhp ?? In a large capacity engine, or a high powered one, where you intend using 100% meth, can a normal aquamist pump compare with a shurflo for flow ? I ask, as I already have an aquamist setup on my engine ( supercharged 5.7 LS1 ), currently with 2 x 0.5mm jets, and I am running quite a high concentration of meth. Dont know exact quantity though, as when not racing, i would dilute with water again to a degree.. Pump is quite old, but so far seems to be working. Any flow data Ive seen for the pump, seem to suggest its only capable of around 400cc/min or so ?? I was intending to upgrade to a Snow kit, but if I could get the same results with a single aquamist pump, it would make things a lot easier for me, rather than having to fit a completely new system. |
Welcome Stevieturbo,
The shurflo pump is capable of more than 2 litre per minute - almost most capable of the car's fuel pump. We do use Shurflo pump for high flow applications as our pump can only flow 330cc/min or so. If you take into account that water has 6 times the latent heat of fuel, it is almost equivalent to injectind 1.8 litre of fuel into the engine for incylinder cooling purposes. A 350HP engine requires about 1.8 litre/min of fuel, putting 330cc/min of water is the almost the same as running 7.5 air/fuel ratio. If you are using 100 methanol instead of water, you need to inject twice as much alcohol to water by mass, or 2.5 times as much by volume. If alcohol is solely used for incylinder cooling purposes, then it is the wrong liquid to use. Aquamist is solely design of water inejction purposes, but people do use it for upto 50% methanol injection. Most alcohol injection system is used for the purposes of supplimenting the fuel and octane boost, but have encountered some tuning problems since mentioned system can not be mapped accurately, so air/fuel/methanol (afm) is not easily predictable. Trimming the fuel to make room for methanol is one way to make it work, but if the system were to break down or encounter the slighest nozzle clog, the result can be catastrophic. It is much easier to add alcohol to your fuel tank and risking some inbalance of flow into each cylinder by using one nozzle in the inlet tract. If you want to inject 100% alcohol, we can build you a system that will do that, based on the Shurflo pump and HSV and port injection - flowrate sensing on each set of nozzle to minimise any inbalance of flow to each cylinder. You will also be responsible to map the system on a dyno to get the best out of the set up. In the end, it is far cheaper to just to remap your engine based on bigger fuel injectors running E85 fuel. If you want to go with the existing aquamist pump, you can use a priming pump to bring the flowrate upto 600cc/min. We have tested a 3 bar priming pump on a 1s system, we got 570cc/min out of the aquamist pump. I am sure if you use a headlamp washer pumpm, it will produce more, relatively inexpensibe way to improve the flow of the aquamist pump. If you have a 2d/2c system, I can help you yo interface it with the shurflow pump. I believe the following thread mention this: http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=127 Richard Quote:
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