Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Who's interested in an Aquamist "summer" solution for rotaries? I noticed a number of people posting about it on rx7club so I figured I'd see if there are more.

Links to some summer info:
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.ph...quamist&page=6
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/aqd/RX7/summer.html
Cliff notes: The summer module allows for more accurate IDC input for our cars (since rotaries have primary and secondary injection) for Aquamist AI kits.

- summer alone ...........$299
- summer + HFS3 .......... $120 + HFS-3
- summer + HFS-6 ........ $120 + HFS-6

Let's see if there is enough interest to convince Richard L to make some more XD.


1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)
7. FD-KAI (summer + HFS6)
8. RX72NR (summer + HFS6)
9. riprx7 (summer + HFS6)
10. browndog9 (summer + HFS6)
11. Supernaut (?)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

#3. Snyrx7

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Just need the summer alone?

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Lets hope we get 20 people interest for the re-launch.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

#4 interested in the summer alone.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Are you planning to run the summer as a stand-alone system?

You just need to add a constant pressure pump and an inline valve (ideally fast response type)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Looking for a complete kit including summer

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

There are two kits on offer, HFS-3 and HFS-6. Bith will woth with the summer. If like me to explain the differences between the two on the RX7 application, I am happy to do so.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

That's the plan. Talked to you a few weeks back about this (from rx7club.com forums).

Sure hope to see this unit come out in time for when I start cranking up the boost this coming season. :)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Hi Richard
I am very interested in this. Can you please explain the difference between the 2 kits? What are the effects on the pump running 100% methanol? How much does the pump cost?
If i buy directly from you what would the cost of the HFS6 / HFS3 + summer be in ?

Pls reply on my email henri_chetcuti at onvol.net

thanks for your help & time
Henri

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

System cost: see here:
HFS-3: ............ ?480 + NO VAT (until mid January). ?576.00(from mid January)
HFS-6: ............ ?580 + NO VAT (until mid January). ?696.00(from mid January)

Water pump comparisons:
HFS-3 ............. constant 160psi by-pass water pump (100% methanol compatible - 12 months+) $199
HFS-6 ............. constant 160psi by-pass water pump + accumulator (100% methanol compatible - 12 months+) $199 + $50

Fast acting valve:
HFS-3 ............. Fast acting valve + turbine based flow sensor
HFS-6 ............. Fast acting valve + turbine based flow sensor

Dash gauge:
Same

User adjustable on-board trimmers:

User adjustable triggering point:
HFS-3 ............. 12%-72%
HFS-6 ............. 12%-72%

User of adjustable triggering point offset:
HFS-3: ........... % trigger point % = % methanol injection point
HFS-6: ........... % trigger point % = +/- 20% methanol injection point

User adjustable IDC% gain:
HFS-3: ........... -50% to 150%
HFS-6: ........... -50% to 150%

Manifold pressure compensation:
HFS-3: ........... none
HFS-6: ........... 0-20% gain

Failsafe trigger delay:
HFS-3: ........... 0.2 to 0.6 seconds
HFS-6: ........... 0.2 to 0.6 seconds

Failsafe trigger reset timer:
HFS-3: ........... 3 seconds (fixed)
HFS-6: ........... adjustable 1-6 seconds

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

HI..

I AM intrested in summer + HFS-6 ;)

When is this out for sale?

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

I'm in too.

1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)[/quote]
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6) :)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

I am interested. Will you honor the current prices on the HFS6 and HFS3 kits when the group buy actually happens?

1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)[/quote]
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

if you be kind enough to do so... i'd be keen on summer + either HFS3/6 based on what is ideal for me.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

I think you can read through post no.12 a bit further up this page and have all the info you need. If thats not enough Richard will chime in...

Guys pass the word around about this Group Buy as its our only chance to get Aquamist to produce a new batch of summers for our 13B engines :)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)
7. FD-KAI (summer + HFS6)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Add me in for the HFS-6 and the summer

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)
7. FD-KAI (summer + HFS6)
8. RX72NR (summer + HFS6)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

eyy,,,+++ me RIPRX7

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Hi riprx7

you have to specify what you want exactly. Do you want just the Summer or HFS-6/HFS-3 + Summer...

1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)
7. FD-KAI (summer + HFS6)
8. RX72NR (summer + HFS6)
9. riprx7 (?? + ??)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Id like the summer with hfs-6, but if this takes to months get 20 people I think I just have to get the hfs-6. My car has to be ready in march.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Well we have to pass the word on as much as we can or else when we manage 10 ppl we get 2 summers each lol :)

1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)
7. FD-KAI (summer + HFS6)
8. RX72NR (summer + HFS6)
9. riprx7 (summer + HFS6)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

It's good to see people with rotaries understanding water injection is the only way to make true reliable power ;)

Anyone in any doubts here is a thread (feel free to share and pass on) as to how well it works. Should be mandatory on all turbo rotaries :)

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...4063#post14063

^ 8000km of running at ~500bhp level over 80lt of WI used ........ that is (3+hours) at full power setting. And my original engine is like new. When rotaries at this level of power life span can be measured in seconds and minutes (at full power output) this WI just shows again why its the best technology man has ever engineered for the internal combustion engine :)

Hey Peter, thank for chiming in. There are still a great deal of people do not what water can do for making safe power. You have contributed a great deal already on this forum, keeping me up at soem nights.

Can you share some of the experiences on the effect of running 100% methanol instead of water. Most people on the RX7 club forum run pure methanol, do you think it is unnecessary where water or W50:M50 will do just as well? I am not familiar with rotaries.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Hi Rice

thanks for that. I always read your threads and saw what you achieved on your site.
As you say there is only when way to go and thats with water injection.

Henri

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

it took me half a night to get to this point. Sorry if I am computer callenged but I'll bet I can change a tire as fast as anyone or better. I have said in more than one post I want one of these summers things. As for the 6 or 3 I guess I.ve got to go with the 6 . So now add me to the group. One last thing, Richard I have had the pleasure to read your posts. The have beeen very educational and I think we could definitely drink a glass of bitters together and talk.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Thanks Henri,

Yes I not only believe so but unlike most I suppose I have proved it over the last 15 years of consistently using water injection on all kinds of rotaries (and lesser internal combustion principles!).

(This all has to be given some context)

I make the same power (with proven durability) ~500bhp
Than what Racing Beat made with factory bespoke 7.5:1 compression bridge ported, ICE water intercooled, twin turbocharged, open exhaust racing engines, on racing gasoline. (which set 244mph speed records in 1986, 238mph two way average).

There is no magic sauce in mechanical engineering (but WI comes close!), you make power by volumetric flow rates, mechanical and thermal efficiency. I run the std 9.0:1 compression ratio found in the 13B-REW, stock standard porting for intake and exhaust, and a small conventional type air to air intercooler (original SP rx7 item).

Water Injection is the only major secret?/magic? ingredient and a fine degree of tuning. Which allows what was only achievable on factory racing engines a few short years ago to now on stock standard parts, and a totally legal emissions engine........ unbelievable.

I class one of my biggest achievements is educating students and general public type people on the proven merits of Water Injection, and the power it can unleash while at the same time enhancing durability of your engine. If anyone needs any help feel free to read my thread or don't hesitate to ask Richard or other very experienced people who contribute here on how to get the same results we have all enjoyed over the years.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)
7. FD-KAI (summer + HFS6)
8. RX72NR (summer + HFS6)
9. riprx7 (summer + HFS6)
10. browndog9 (summer + HFS6)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Great Stuff! Any vids of your car hitting the limiter in 5th then? :)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Hi guys

now that we're 10 of us on the list why not spk to a friend of ours that has a rotary and convince them to get 1 too. If we all manage 1 person we double up straight away hit 20ppl and the summer is in production. A little effort goes a long way :)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

This is a very encouraging start.

I would like to update and improve some of the circuitry of the v2 summer to v3. This will enable user to HFS-xx user port to communicate with the v3 summer.

Since I have to restart the production anyway, it is a good time to update. I may take advantage of this holiday period to to work on the v3. Updating the system design is costing my time so it is OK, as far as I am concerned. It will also shorten the main production time.

Henri and many others such as OP for helping out and making this special group buy a reality.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

It is possible to get the HFS-6 first get it installed and then put on the summer later.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

The summer was developed a few years ago when someone told me the RX7 uses an unusual fuel delivery algorithm. Since all our systems use fuel flow as a reference to control flow, I had no choice but had to find a solution so that our system can work properly on the RX7.

Do you have bitter in the states? (Texas), I am very pleased that you have conquared the computer and posted here.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)[/quote]

I will promise to keep the price pegged.

Richard

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

I wonder if you still want me to explain after you have read the post #12?

The major difference between the H3 and H6 for the rotary is the boost compensation if you run 100% methanol.

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Some one added the above in my post high lighted in bold.? I'll reply below.

100% Methanol is any inferior solution for the following reasons:

1> Increased knock.
2> Vastly Increased fluid usage to equal WI.
3> Quick fluid degradation over time.
4> Stress on system parts (corrosion, lack of lubrication, degrading all rubbers).
5> Tuning problems which greatly effect knock resistance.
6> QTY needed to equal majority WI mixtures or WI alone double to triple system weight!.
7> Excessive wash down of lubrication in engine.
8> FIRE hazard!
9> Narrow tuning window to stop knock far inferior to water or mixes of water
10> Totally not flexible (you have no meth then you are fucked!)! where as 50/50 W/M cars and and do run 100% water without any changes in tune or any set up changes! (the slightly leaner AFR setting is ideal for 100% water alone) so if your stuck somewhere no problem, just fill up on water ;) can't do this on 100% Meth set up!
(WI or 50/50 WI cars can run and make power from 10.2:1 AFR to 13.9:1 AFR) try that on pure meth add on set up like Americans preach and your rotary will be out in favor of a V8 conversion :( )
Methanol Injection is rubbish, but add water to the equation and its something that works, has been proven for a hundred years, and it THE best all round solution, I say the only real solution that is flexible, reliable, and has little excuses associated with its long term application in the real world.

I can't say why American after market automotive people are not with technology as it was developed during the war? To me it is crazy and simply points to lack of knowledge, education, and pure skill.

WI on its own works well, 50/50 by mass mixes with Methanol work in ALL situations, will never freeze, makes excellent power, and counters ALL of the negatives of running methanol alone. It is the complete solution. You can leave the fluid in mixed state for over a year exposed to air and it will always be consistent! (Unlike Methanol) that will degrade quickly and cause untold problems. Mixing 50/50 by mass it undergoes an exothermic reaction and its make up is permanently altered and it is very stable and consistent, giving almost all the water only attributes while being kinder to making power on fixed variables like boost, timing etc, and its easier if your system parts are not up to spec (like ignition capacity).

Methanol is just a cheap alternative and ill thought out (as are ANY alcohol fuels IMHO > E85 included). Its simple cause its easier to fire, but its horrendous to system parts, varies daily, store it too long and you will have a blow up machine BDC style!

The absolute ideal is gasoline main fuel, water/methanol in 50/50 ratio and injected at 40% to 25% of main fuel flow *BY MASS!!!*, it will make power on all set ups, be consistent, not rape any parts be it in your injection system or your engine.

It's not hard, you just need to follow what Frank Walker and many other Mechanical Engineers have been quoted on since early last century. A war was won with their brains V's today's internet forum wars of nobodies............... I know who I would rather believe and follow :)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Peter,

I may be have stepped out of line by moving this thread off topic. It was orignally intended to set up a group purchase for the RX7 summer unit we discontinued.

If you don't mind. I would like to correct this by putting this very interesting contribution by yourself on the "injection mixtures" forum. I would also like to discuss Frank walker's research paper of water/alcohol injection. I believe I have posted the link here somewhere.

Found it: http://enginehistory.org/Frank%20WalkerWeb1.pdf

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

I do not mind at all ;)

As the thread has been linked all over the place I though I would add some muscle behind it for people trolling in who might be sitting on the fence? or who are looking for some real knowledge.......... since I am very selective on which forums deserve my valuable input these days :)

Re: Rotary "Summer" Unit GB interest
 

Supernaut is having trouble posting in this thread for some reason, so here's a post on his behalf:
1. Drunkengimp (summer+HFS3)
2. remydrm (summer+HFS3)
3. Snyrx7 (?)
4. trainwreck517 (summer alone)
5. MaD^94Rx7 (summer+HFS6)
6. r2omega (summer +HFS6)
7. FD-KAI (summer + HFS6)
8. RX72NR (summer + HFS6)
9. riprx7 (summer + HFS6)
10. browndog9 (summer + HFS6)
11. Supernaut (?)