Aquamist HFS-3 system for 2010 ..... "Q and A"
 

I have now completed the final HFS3 update

The system has been planned for some time, right after the launch of the HFS-6. We want to be certain the core components are totally reliable before launching the second PWM system.

THF HFS-6 has provided us a sound foundation and quick development time.

The HFS-3 is an affordable entry-level system for those who wants to venture into the PWM valve concept, allowing "wide dynamic range" and "fast response to load change".

Please feel free to post questions.

Looking good :D

Just a few questions...hope thats okay.

- What price (approximately, if you don't have final pricing) will this system be ?

- Is there likely to be an introductory offer & if so what kind of price ?

- What is the target launch date ?

- Is the 52mm gauge mentioned the DDS3 controller ?

I'm based in the UK & pretty new to the world of water injection but noticed that the only people marketing the HFS kit are US Suppliers.... Howerton Engineering have a great site.

Royster,

Final MSRP has not yet been decided, but will certainly be less than the HFS-6. There will be an brief introductory price in the mid-$600us range. Projected launch date is late January or early February. The DDS3 controller is a stand-alone failsafe unit with flowsensor, junction board/controller and gauge. The gauge(to the end user) is the same between the DDS3 and HFS-3, but the HFS 3 and 6 have the failsafe functions and their own flowsensors built into the systems.

Thank you for the complements on the site.

Thank you, that's very helpful.

When starts the group buy?

Possibly this week, very soon!

Fellas, Fellas, Fellas, is there a "list" one would need to get on to be wanna the 1st to get a 3?

Yes, The list will be up by the weekend. Sorry for the delay, there are a great deal of background work.

One detail I wanted to post up for consideration. The HFS-2 system is upgradable to the HFS-3 at anytime. A factory direct kit will include a gauge and cable(replacing the switch) and a flowsensor with mounting block to the FAV. The is no difference between the rest of the parts in the kit.

As promised, the machined body of the HFS-2 dash switch has arrived from the anodiser today, delayed by the recent heavy snow fall last week. We assembled it and took a few pictures. The image is animated to show how the system work in real life. An information much needed before the GB starts in two days time on the aqaumist forum.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS3/H2-SW-an1.gif

oh boy.. im waiting too..

That's what we like to hear. Hopefully we have a good group buy with these systems. If we can exceed the HFS-6 introduction it will be very good.

What was the total for the hfs-6 just out of curiosity.

thanks

I think 60+ worldwide.

Question:

- What is the maximum amount of methanol % the system can run?
- Can the system run ethanol? What is the maximum % of ethanol supported?
- Will the system come with any documentations as to installation and/or parts required? So far I can see I need a water tank, but is there anything else i need? Filters, hoses etc

Thanks

- 100% methanol is used on the HFS-6 system (same pump) since March this year with no report of pump failure of leak. As far as the pump manufacturer (aquatec, USA) the pump is resistant to methanol

- I think ethanol is possible but not confirmed by aquatec - thinking of running a secondary fuel system?

- The system will come with a user manual similar to the (HFS-6). It comes with every thing except the water tank. Download the HFS-6 user manual so that you can get an impression on what is supplied and how the manual is written. You can see the in-tank filter (blue item) on the product picture.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/HFS6/HFS-6-4w.pdf

What are the differences between this kit and the HFS-6?

Why is the small tube, that is attached next to the pump of the HFS-6 system, missing on this one?

Are there any guide lines as to how the car should be programed to run this kit?

The HFS-3 cannot (compared to the HFS-6):
- offset against the initial F-IDC - the F-IDC threshold % = starting point of meth flow %
- It doesn't have manifold pressure compensation, but can use it as a reference for injection (see below).
- alter the failsafe reset period = pegged at 3 seconds
- read "Direct Injection" pulses such as the 335i or Audi FSI pulses
- control a MAC valve directly as with the HFS-6

The HFS-3 can:
- scale-up/down the incoming F-IDC for car with very large fuel injector that doesn't run up to 100%.
- You can run the system based on boost or IDC only. In single stage or progressive mode.

The HFS-6 is more suited for engine with large turbo with power beyond 550whp.

I think the small tube you are referring to is possibly the accumulator. This unit is used to smooth out any pulses apparent in the lines due to the nature of the pump. I have not used a kit without an accumulator so Richard will have let you know the effects of removing it from the system. My guess would be it may change slightly between each application due to flow rates etc. but Richard is the authority on the subject.

As for programming, there are general guidelines one can follow but your best bet is to contact other users of the system with similar vehicles/applications to yourself and inquire as to settings/tuners that have been used. Maybe we can have some feedback on this forum for you one of the other sections if you post a few questions there.

That's what I thought. But why is it missing from this system? I think (and maybe wrong) that with smaller engines, and the PWM-Valve working at lower speeds, this is needed more than the HFS-6 system that is intended for more powerful engines, as Richard pointed out. Did it up the price of the kit too mutch or it is really not needed? Can I have a kit with it or install one myself? I am planing on doing "direct port" injection that is why I am concerned about the pulsating jet so close to the intake.

What are the failsafes that this system has? I know that one for sure is the liquid level. Any other? Is flow taken into consideration?

Also, when is the manual coming out?

Sorry for asking so many questions but this is a new kit and not match is written about it.

Thank you both for your replies

I can't give you an accurate answer on the accumulator as Richard will have made the decision to eliminate it. We do have the parts here to add it to the system if you wish to do so.

The system has a similar failsafe setup as to the HFS-6, with the reset time fixed and no direct circuit for the MAC valve( but the normal contacts con drive a MAC valve fine). So a full flow based failsafe is provided in the 3.

The manual will be published when completed, we have a good deal of product info on our site here:

http://howertonengineering.com/Aquamist_hfs3.html

Even though there are some differences to the HFS-6, installation and basic operation are similar to the 6.

Would the HFS-3 support 2litres/minute methanol flow at good pressure?.

Richard will have to give a definitive answer, I think the pump will flow 1800cc/min at good pressure, and the FAV can be configured for special applications if need be. I'll try to get him to respond here.

The item in question does two jobs. It stores a small amount of pressurised water from the previous injection event on readyness for the next event. This fills the gaps where system pressure can drop by a small amount before the water pump spools up from a dead stop to arriving at the intended system pressure. The second job is to softening the hammer-effect caused by the rapid on/off action of the inline valve.

One of reason for omitting it is final system cost, we have to trim $200+ off the HFS-6 so people can afford a PWM valve system other than the HFS-6. We have been criticised for not designing a system for the masses.

As to the effect on the overall system performance in its absence, it is mimimal. This is because the HFS-3 is designed as a trunk mounted system, the long pressurised nylon hose (18 feet) between the pump (in trunk) to the inline valve (engine bay) will act as the 22cc surge arrestor/accumulater.

The item can be purchased separately, part #806-409. You need to get the kit of parts as on the HFS-6.

Please ask as many questions as you want, this is the place to do it. Information-overload and just as bad as providing too little.

The HFS-3 is designed to supply 1500cc/min of water at 160psi. This is below the upper limit of the standard inline valve of 1800cc/min. Beyond this flow the system pressure will drop by 10-12psi unless you wind-up the pump pressure. The flow control by the valve will looses its linearity. You need to contact us to supply a higher flow valve up to 2-litre/min and a higher flow flow sensor. Those will be specials and a small cost involved, but we can do it.

Hfs-3 or 6
 

Hi I'm thinking of getting in on the group buybut want to know if I need the hfs-6. My motor is a 2.2ltr and makes 550 hp on c-16 race fuel. This is a multi usage car so mostly I use pump gas with boost turnd down to 12 lbs to prevent knock. It's intercooled. I don't use a MAF so fetures of the 6 system like the accumulator, map compesation and start flow point. Are these fetures needed and what are the reasons.

What car do you have?

The HFS-3 should be able to handle all you need to run pump fuel and have performance approaching C16. Can you explain if you have a second switchable map for c16 or just running lower boost for pump fuel.

Hi Richard, the car is a 55 bug. 2165cc aircooled motor extensive mods. Yes a seperate map for c-16 but have to manualy input the 2nd map so look to use the w/m to keep one map only and meet somewhere in the middle. I'm hopeing to get into the 10s on pump gas. What nozzles do you suggest. One or two smaller ones? Also what mixture?

If you have some ideas what fuel flow is your car consuming per minute?

Or the estimated horse power of your engine and boost psi. From there I can estimate the jet size.

Richard

I have 96 lb injectors and never go over 80 perc duty cycle. With the low map I never go over 60 perc. Horse power goal is 350-400 at 18 lbs

The idc gain trimmer is used to upscale the flow of the jets? Right now I feel like I am running a good deal of methanol. My peak injector duty is 70% this occurs at my redline. Can the Hfs-3 be cranked up to match the flow amount of the Hfs-1, basically will it flow less meth where my injector duty cycle is less and will that cause me to lose power theoretically? Or is the afr/timing more important than the % of methanol being injected after a certain point (diminishing gain by injecting more). That is to say that more is not necessarily better as long as its tuned properly. Sorry just trying to wrap my head around this. My old system is an hfs-1 v8. I think I need to do alot more reading.

MT057, what size injectors and what jetting do you have in the HFS-1 right now?

I am using 780cc injectors and I believe that I am using a .8 and .6 but it could have been a .8 and 1.0 My old tuner put them in about a year ago. The jets have red rings that i can see if that helps at all.

Bright red is a .7mm and dark red is a .8mm. Assuming this combo you are spraying about 670cc. I'm not sure at what RPM this comes on at at WOT, and does it come on at close to WOT or partial throttle settings as well? Anyway, with 780cc injectors and 100% meth, using the same jet with the higher psi pump, you will have 790cc of jetting. Now, at the cut in point, which maybe sooner or at less load than the HFS-1 depending upon how you set it, it will track IDC 1:1 at the cut in point. After that, you can adjust the gain function to add or subtract duty cycle with the slpoe of the line pinned at the cut-in point and hinging from there. You can add or subtract up to 20% plus or minus. I suspect you will have a little less in the midrange than you are used to but more as the revs climb if the trimmers are left in the factory settings. You could go with bigger jets, and trim the gain way down to flatten out the curve to make the unit similar to what you are used to if you like.

One thing to try, is to download the HFS-6 trimmer excel worksheet, and leave the MAP compensation(set to 5v) and IDC trim(12 o'clock position) untouched then you can play with the curves to see what you have now and what different configurations the 3 will give you.

By what you are saying I could ramp it up until the mid range is where I am used to and then lean out the gasoline up top a litte more. I will have to try out that spread sheet.
My current setup kicks on at 12psi and I run about 30psi in third gear from 4500 to 7000 in 4th I hit 32 making my limiter on my ebc go crazy.

Your maximum consuming is around 4 litre of fuel per minute, regardless of DC%.

Please try the following ratios:
100% water ...... 400cc to 600cc per minute
M50:W50 ......... 600cc- 800cc per minute
M100% ........... 800-1000cc per minute

Take 18psi from the chart below and pick the jet combination to suit:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum/gall...H6-jetrate.gif

So useing that chart. Pump pressure 160 psi- 18 psi And needing between 700-800cc I need one .7mm and one .8 mm to run 100 perc meth or one .6 and one .7 to run 50/50

it is OK to over jetting, the HFS-3 can reduce flow electronically.

HFS-3 / Failsafe / Map Switching Output
 

I have been using your System in the Hydramist version. (DDS v8)
I will be interfacing the HFS-3 with a HydraEMS in a Honda S2000 application

I want to use the HydraEMS auxiliary map feature so I would like to know which output from the HFS-3 is equivalent to the MAP-SW2 output from the DDS-v8
This output enables the ECU to use the auxiliary fuel-trim map and allows to run with or without the Water Inj. system on. - I could wire an "external" switch but if it's already available from the DDS3 display gauge then I would like to wire it that way- similar to the Hydramist.

Also which output from the HFS-3 box can be used for a solenoid boost-cut relay when a fault is sensed? This could be a (+) or (-) trigger?
thanks!