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robos4 20-03-2016 03:52 AM

Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
New New Update

Now making 775BHP with an EFR 8374 turbo using direct port meth on a 2.1ltr 4 cylinder engine - post number 53 has more details, this setup has been in this car for over 4 years with a lot of track use, it's a solid setup with 0 maintenance doneand still running the same engine after all this abuse



NEW UPDATE

Now making 482WHP with 4 x 0.5mm jets, refer to page 4 post #44

All I can say is - Direct Port Meth FTW!!! Best mod I have ever done in 15 years of modifying cars......

I now run 4 x 0.5mm (but I started with 0.4mm jets) check valved jets in my intake plenum through the Aquamist kit (it's now always running for track as well).

For more information is best to pm or email me - robmonckton@gmail.com I'm happy to share all the details.


Hi All,

I know there is couple of threads on direct port but I just need some help understanding a few things and see what you think of the setup.

I'm in the process of fitting an HFS-3 kit to run 50/50 water/meth on my EVO X. The engine is a stroker build with CBRD BorgWarner 7163 turbo kit putting down 430whp @ 1.7 bar boost on a heart breaker mainline dyno. (1,000 cc inj and will run 1.9bar with this meth kit)

I only want to use the kit to help control knock and a little more power. I keep reading of many evo's having issues when only putting meth in the I/C pipe due to cyl 1 / 4 not getting equal flow (I had that problem already with the stock engine).

So I am putting 4 nozzles into the intake manifold (pic below for location). You can see the drilled holes for the 4 nozzles.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4416/...f5c641d3_c.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4292/...3890e4d8_z.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4305/...9803442a_c.jpg

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/452/3...9c10e011_b.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4325/...0317e41b_z.jpg

I'm going with 4 x 0.4mm jets.

Do I need to be worried about under vacuum sucking the meth through the lines? do I need something else to be added with the HFS-3 kit (I read about the check valves but don't quite understand if that is needed fo rmy application)?

Thanks in advance
Rob
Singapore

rotrex 20-03-2016 09:03 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
If you use a metering valve like the FAV , you won't need a additional check valve. There is no pressure differential across the jets.

I would even considering installing 0.5mm jets in your case. Disadvantage is yout mapping depends more and more on the WI the more you inject. If you use the car on track, consumption goes up a fair bit as you are on the throttle a lot.

Richard L 20-03-2016 09:50 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Rotrex, I have a different view on this...

DP jets do require isolation after the FAV unless you are using four FAVs.

The pressure/vacuum does fluctuate between ports due to the inlet valve opens and shut at different timing intervals especially after lift off. The fluid inside the tubing will commuting and eventually being emptied.

It is important to minimise this effect especially on engines with aggressive cam profile. This can cause pre-ignition or worse still, blowing up the manifold when high concentration of methanol is use.

This is the reason when we offer the DP bundle for a one-stop solution.

parmas 20-03-2016 10:12 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by robos4 (Post 22334)
Hi All,

I keep reading of many evo's having issues when only putting meth in the I/C pipe due to cyl 1 / 4 not getting equal flow (I had that problem already with the stock engine).


Thanks in advance
Rob
Singapore

Where did you put exactly the nozzle into the I/C pipe? pics?

Have you tried to put the nozzle just before the throttle body ? see attachment

rotrex 20-03-2016 11:12 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
A 4mm line with a 2mm ID with a 2mm ID has a volume of about 3ml per meter.
That dribble from 4 nozzles spilling over the course of few seconds won't blow up anything.
With aggressive cams you blow way more fuel from the cylinder into the manifold under those conditions.
Even fuel cut on overrun will continue to inject fuel for a few hundred milliseconds tapering down to prevent catalytic converter overheat from sudden inrush of excess oxygen.

Richard L 20-03-2016 11:45 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
The ID for a 4mm hose is 2.5mm. Also the volume in the distribution manifold is 2-3cc of fluid and decompression of the pressurised hose. I can see 10cc or more will be seen. Having a inline checkvalve should cut it down by ~80%

The likelihood of an explosion is subject to stoichiometric, not easy to predict the exact amount of air after lift off. It can happen as long as there is fuel left in the manifold.

At what phase does the over-lap blow fuel into the manifold? I was referring to the exhaust stroke. I do think the modern multipoint sequential system inject fuel during this period.

Also, the delay wmi injection on the next event, cavity has to be refilled before reaching the tip of the jets.

rotrex 20-03-2016 08:51 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
The beauty of the jets with the integrated check valves is that there is no extra effort to install or extra connections. Just jets and that's it. If their break pressure is low there is no downside.


In my car, I have "masked" the onset of the WI by extending the acceleration fueling just long enough to have no knock upon sudden WOT.
I have never had issues with plenum backfires.
The dead volume past the HSV in my system is rather small as I just use y-junctions with a low dead volume. I should measure it once the opportunity arises.

robos4 21-03-2016 04:25 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Thanks guys for your replies..

Parts of this are in a different language but I'm following (just).

Few more facts,

This is mostly a track car but the meth kit is only to be used on the street.

I am running a port and polish, Cosworth MX1 cams and oversized valves..

I figured the 0.4MM jets would atomize better being so close to the cylinders..

I am planning to run from the FAV one line split in two then those lines split in two again.

The kit is being installed this week so I don't have time to wait for a new set of jets. Are you saying there is a chance I won't have enough flow to deliver the benefits of what I'm trying to achieve?

I'm going to try the system as is (without check valves).

I'll ask my tuner to make sure there is minimum droplets after lift off (back fire option) as I don't think that will mix well with meth in the manifold lol.

robos4 21-03-2016 04:29 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by parmas (Post 22340)
Where did you put exactly the nozzle into the I/C pipe? pics?

Have you tried to put the nozzle just before the throttle body ? see attachment

Hey Parmas,

Sorry I meant I had problems without meth on the stock engine (when I rebui8lt it), cyl 4 was damaged due to running too lean. It must be a poor design from the intake manifold as it's obviously not getting equal flow. (the injectors were flow tested and came back fine).

Putting a jet just before throttle body in my mind wouldn't help me cure my cylinders receiving un even flow still.

Rob

Iguanapeluda 21-03-2016 06:47 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Hi!

Is it a good post!, where exactly do you install the nozzles in the intake manifold? In my car, I don"t know where is better...

Do you install it where the red marks are you painted?

Richard L 21-03-2016 07:00 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
The red marks are good.

parmas 22-03-2016 10:22 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robos4 (Post 22353)
Hey Parmas,

Sorry I meant I had problems without meth on the stock engine (when I rebui8lt it), cyl 4 was damaged due to running too lean. It must be a poor design from the intake manifold as it's obviously not getting equal flow. (the injectors were flow tested and came back fine).

Putting a jet just before throttle body in my mind wouldn't help me cure my cylinders receiving un even flow still.

Rob


You are using stock intake right?

Are you saying that Mitsubishi designed a poor design?

If that is the case I would consider making a custom one that will provide equal flow to all the cylinders and use one pre throttle body.

Water/meth could help but the setup is not right.

robos4 23-03-2016 01:02 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Thanks Parmas,

Sorry, so you are saying my meth setup is not right?

I would imagine most people chasing bigger power goals would go with nozzles in the IC pipe pre throttle body (and possibly in the manifold too) but I'm primarily going to use it for knock control.

Well, it's a fun project and it should all be complete and tuned by next week.

- Stock it gets 215whp

- Stock engine and bolt on's with HKS 7460 turbo got me 348whp (1.75bar)

- HKS stroker, MX1 cams, oversized valves, PNP, CBRD 7163 turbo kit, got me 424whp but I didn't set the IWG properly and wasn't holding boost..

- Now adding external fuel pump, larger intake, meth kit and firmer wastegate tune next week and shooting for 450-460whp.

Rob

parmas 23-03-2016 10:24 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
I meant not tight to use a known unbalanced intake manifold and use water injection to "balance" the mixture

robos4 24-03-2016 04:32 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Guys,

Need to know the best angle to install the nozzles?

I'm having bungs welded on the intake ports which means I can now drill the holes at an angle (rather than straight down into the pipe).

Seems to be two schools of thought from who I am talking to:

- 45deg facing with the flow (nozzles pointing towards the cylinders)
or
- 45deg facing into the flow (away from the cylinders) as to ensure it mixes better before hitting the combustion chamber.

Or I guess I could still just go straight 90deg down into the pipes.

What's the answer?? :)

Thanks
Rob

parmas 24-03-2016 05:02 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
I would position the nozzles similar to the fuel injector position made by factory.

If cannot be done as above I would make them at the bottom bend of the intake manifold

robos4 26-03-2016 12:39 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Thanks Parmas,

Richard/Rotrex - what do you think also?

90% of the pics out there of direct port setups have straight down 90deg and the other 10% have it setup like the fuel injectors facing towards the cyclinders.

Also, machine shop came back and places the holes about 1" lower from the original pic I showed you but doing it again with bungs welded.

robos4 27-03-2016 04:43 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
anyone?

I am drilling the manifold tomorrow.

parmas 27-03-2016 07:24 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robos4 (Post 22393)
anyone?

I am drilling the manifold tomorrow.

Do you think there is a better person than a Mitsubishi engineer designer here?

I think the best option is just in front your eyes.... no need for any suggestions.

Notice the fuel injectors position/angle and make it similar if not the same whenever possible.

Good luck .... and post results and pics in return :)

robos4 27-03-2016 07:58 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Cheers,

No offense - always good to hear other opinions and it's the Internet after all :) did not know you were so educated in all this (my bad).

Just told workshop to follow your recommendations.

Hoping to have it all done by Fri and hopefully start tuning.

I was thinking of setting the spray to start about 30 to max 50% of what could be sprayed (not looking for huge power).

If you disagree, let me know.

Rob

Ps. Will absolutely share results and findings.. Who knows, part of me thinks it won't work (cause less power, can't find the right mix of spray v timing and fuel, meth sucking the lines causing rich spot after lift off, too larger jets etc)

rotrex 27-03-2016 09:33 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
I'd second that. The fuel injectors are a good guide.
Spraying at an angle might give you a better distribution across the cross section of the runner.
I'd position them right behind the fuel injectors above that vertical pipe. So well above the red dots.
I'd avoid that the spray has to take any bends.
Instead of using only 50% of spray, I'd rather choose smaller jets. Droplets are the smallest near max flow.

robos4 27-03-2016 10:12 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Thanks,

I'm running 0.4mm nozzles, isn't 0.3mm the smallest?

I still would have thought being further back in the ports the better regardless of bends, it's moving pretty quickly with 30psi on this sized turbo no?

Cheers

rotrex 27-03-2016 11:19 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
The 'quickly' is the issue. Taking the bends generates enormous g-forces throwing the droplets against the runner wall. While the methanol will still evaporate passing the valves and within the chamber, the water will do much less so as a stream of water running along the runner's floor. This is a other reason the fuel injectors are close to the intake port in the straight section. They point right at the valves in the direction of the air flow. This minimizes fluid separation.

parmas 27-03-2016 08:20 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robos4 (Post 22396)
Cheers,

No offense - always good to hear other opinions and it's the Internet after all :) did not know you were so educated in all this (my bad).

Just told workshop to follow your recommendations.

Hoping to have it all done by Fri and hopefully start tuning.

I was thinking of setting the spray to start about 30 to max 50% of what could be sprayed (not looking for huge power).

If you disagree, let me know.

Rob

Ps. Will absolutely share results and findings.. Who knows, part of me thinks it won't work (cause less power, can't find the right mix of spray v timing and fuel, meth sucking the lines causing rich spot after lift off, too larger jets etc)

Testing, patience and time is your friend from now on.

I spent countless days finetuning myself water injection vs different mixtures. Surely it's not a one time pass but don't give up trying to achieve your goals and sometimes when taking risks is where the power is achieved.

GoodLuck!

robos4 31-03-2016 12:24 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Hey guys,

Urgently need some advice.

We went to wire up the fail safe using Tephra alt maps which says to wire up the white wire to either pin 112 or 115 in the ECU, funny thing is - there is NO PINS on either 112 or 115..

Does anyone know what options I have here?

I have emailed Tephra to see what he suggests. We were thinking of putting a pin in 112 and see if ECU picks it up.

Thanks
Rob
ps. My EVO X is an RS model from Japan - not sure if that is why..

robos4 02-04-2016 12:49 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Unfortunately we couldn't get it tuned yday :(

Found a leak in exhaust so need to fix that obviously.

We have 1 week now - Went to order the 0.3mm jet nozzle but it's not available anymore on Aquamist site, they only have 3 options @ 0.4mm A, B or C.

Can anyone help me out here?

Richard L 02-04-2016 07:09 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
The 0.4mm "A" is the nearest replacement of the 0.3mm jet.

robos4 02-04-2016 07:27 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Thanks Richard!

Here was the current 0.4mm but I don't know if they are A, B or C lol.

Looks like a lot of flow for 50% spray (water only):


http://s862.photobucket.com/user/rob...woivk.mp4.html

robos4 17-02-2017 02:52 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Hey All,

Sorry have been slow to update.

Just had a session on the dyno, we finally got the fail safe to work (and it works really well)...

We are facing an issue with V2 Tephra map causing my ecu to brick when flashing the ecu (apparently I need V3 but need looping via TPS as I don't have cruise control lol).

We did however attempt to get a few passes on the dyno but were limited due to flow. After speaking with Richard (top bloke) we are soldering the rear of the chip board to increase flow from 1,000cc to 2,500cc flow map (should have read the manual properly lol).

We did see almost 1 point richer from the runs but the bar graph on the aquamist gauge would only hold 1-2 bars of flow.. (at one bar it kicked into fail safe which was good to see).

Once am back from my travels and so long as Tephra gets us that V3 we are back in business and will update all..

pics of the setup (the machine shop said they couldn't drill where I wanted and had to go closer to the cylinder entrance :

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/a...pstco5kaxl.jpg

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/a...pskpxk7akr.jpg

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/a...psowtmnzsf.jpg

Parmas - I won't give up haha not until I get it working hehe.

Also I missed a comment from earlier - the stock evo x intake manifold I was referring to causing one cylinder to often get less flow ths causing lightly leaner (and when you tune aggressive it causes issues), so I'm told form my engine builder it's common for the stock manifold. do u agree?

rotrex 19-02-2017 06:18 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Less flow would let it run richer. It is more common with side fed manifolds that have a uniform cross section that the first cylinder closest to the inlet runs leaner as it gets more air. Airspeed drops for the others decreasing flow. The more boost you run the worst it gets. Dedicated FI manifolds gradually narrow down in direction of the last cylinder to maintain airspeed despite the cylinders ahead already getting air. An other way is a primary tapered plenum feeding a secondary plenum chamber through a full length slit. This feeds all cylinders equally.
The jet position looks ok. Closer to head seems difficult the achieve as there is no space.

Just run a 50:50 mix to start with. It will be amazing.

robos4 12-03-2017 03:28 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Hi all,

Another attempt which was disappointing. We are still running the same nozzles I mentioned earlier (ordered from Rallisport direct in US under part AQU 806 301) apparently they said it is 0.4mm (the old nozzles before they changed to A,B and C range in 0.4mm nozzles).

We have soldered the back of the circuit board to flow map 3.

Once we hit full boost it can't hold flow. we tried 5-6 times adjusting SC and gain (turned failsafe off for testing).

I have a short video and will try upload shortly.


So clearly I need larger nozzles and I only want to stay with the 4 nozzles not add a 5th.

Should I go for 0.5mm or 0.6MM is the question?

I am running about 86% IDC now on 1,000cc inj and about 28psi boost.

By my calculation it does put me into 0.5mm nozzles but want to make sure I do it right and hear from you guys what you would choose.

Rob

on 98octane (Singapore) fuel it is hitting 415whp on a mainline heartbreaker (about 530hp). stock evo X gets 220whp on this dyno.

Richard L 12-03-2017 08:02 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
You have ordered the wrong jets for DP application. They should be checkvalved. You are experiencing surges.

This problem cannot be solved as long as the non-checkvalve jets are used.

The engine vacuum empties all the fluids in the lines on the finish stages of every injection event. The system has to expel all the air on the next injection commencement hence causing the surge on the gauge.

Did you seek advice before going Direct port?

robos4 13-03-2017 10:20 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Am now on the right track (thanks to Richard).

Hopefully the new parts will be shipped to me within a week and then we tune one week later with results to share.

Decided to go with 0.5MM x 4 for direct port and 1 additional 0.7mm jet post IC to cool IAT.

I'm now wondering how quickly this setup will drain my 6.5ltr tank at the track ha!

Rob

rotrex 13-03-2017 12:29 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
on track, FAST.

BTW, I did not use valves jets, but normal ones. Still good you got the check valves ones.
That saves the effort of compensating any initial delay.

The initial period was covered by extending the acceleration fueling duration for a fraction of a second. The AFR data logs allowed to see this tiny delay as did the knock gauge of the knock control system. With the right settings, no knock was detected independent on how fast you depressed the throttle. I used the WI extensively on track.

robos4 01-04-2017 04:16 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
All,

Got back on the dyno yday and impressed with the results!

I did another base run which was 390whp on this dyno, after tuning the direct port with 0.5MM nozzles (and no 5th nozzle) I managed 433whp with zero boost changes (only AFR and Timing).

Not bad if you ask me.

Made a total max gain of 45whp and 4kg of torque but at peak power (8,000rpm) made 43whp gain and 2kg torque.

We noticed only about 0.5 AFR drop when we initially started spraying meth, I believe 0.6MM nozzles could have been used and we would have seen richer drop in AFR (or adding a 5th nozzle) but end of the day, we leaned it out to 12.1 AFR (true AFR of 12.6) and the car was in a sweet spot!! We must have put 20+ runs on it and every one was perfect, zero counts of knock and VERY healthy smooth runs (using det cans of course).

Added about 3-4 degree of timing and done (this is my track setup, don't want to go too crazy).

Will send post dyno graph soon.

One thing I also noticed, with the jets out of manifold, I tested and set SC to 6 bars on graph, but when in the manifold it would only show 4 bars. Should I adjust the SC one notch to the right or leave it?

Rob

rotrex 01-04-2017 02:37 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
I'd increase pump pressure if possible to restore flow. At 2 bars of boost, you lose 2 bar of the pressure differential driving the mix flow. Going from say 7 bar down to 5 bar will drop the flow rate by about 20%!

robos4 12-04-2017 04:02 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Here is the dyno graph to show the gains.

http://i862.photobucket.com/albums/a...psihvny4dj.jpg
--> for reference, on this same dyno we made 220whp when the EVO X was stock..

I'm not done tuning, soon we will put it back on and turn WGDC up to hold boost to redline (currently it's 1.85bar going down to 1.55bar), also will do a silly tune for some fun runs (2.2bar boost)

and a very short vid to show the sort of spray this kit delivers with 4 x 0.5mm jets:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoNO2a89iew

Rob

robos4 17-04-2017 09:33 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Just got back from my track day (Sepang F1 track in Malaysia).

Absolutely smashed my PB time, fastest track time out of over 100 cars on the day (and fastest of 2016 also). Car is a total beast now and was consistent along with zero knocks (used to see the occasional knock even with toluene additives). Track temp is 60 deg Celsius here, it's a great test and it passed with flying colours.

Really really happy with this new setup.

Video of my lap:

http://youtu.be/7RvQH83zHgo

Rob

Richard L 17-04-2017 10:05 AM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
Congratulations!

Nice bit of driving. 60 deg.C track temperature!!! Wow.

rotrex 17-04-2017 05:02 PM

Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup
 
How much mix did you use per lap or per session?


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