Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?

[FI_Rubicon]

Originally Posted by Flr Power

I have been dyno tuning for 12 years. What I have found is that ''tuners'' are often just dyno operator. They are not that good at tuning even after many years. A lot of dyno operator can tune WOT pretty good but they lack in all the many engine table parameters that can make an engine reliable and or win races.

A dyno is truly the best way to find optimum advance since the conditions will be perfect to measure. When you don't have access to a dyno you are required to tune on the same day, same stretch of road, same wind condition and start each run at an exact same speed. Some guys also use an accelerometer to complement tuning.

That's how I started until I realised I could not get accurate enough. It was also very time consuming to reach a good tune. I know you spray a lot yourself so you could even have past MBT. If that is the case then expect the engine bearings and headgasket to be short lived just like FI_Rubicon...

Definitely agree and appreciate your dedication and ability to tune outside of WOT.

Interestingly, nobody has called your experience or dyno tuning in general into question in this thread. If anything, I am asking you to back up your statements.

A race car absolutely belongs on a dyno. No question. At the same time, my street driven Jeep will probably live a full life without engine failure, even if it never sees a dyno and despite your naysaying. Even just slapping an aftermarket blower on a stock motor will increase stress to the head gasket and crank bearings.

You have my respect as someone who goes beyond being just a dyno (read: machine) operator. Myself, I was a fully certified and factory trained Mazda/Subaru tech. Worked on all of their first generation FI cars and I modded rotaries in the early days too. I also had a California smog license, which is difficult to attain and even once you get it you still need to know how to make a car run correctly and pass smog. I can also appreciate your path to seeking more HP and wisdom etc by getting a dyno. If I had a shop and a dyno, I'd be living on the thing with a laptop collecting and analyzing logs, tuning cars and eeking out every last bit.

Still.... it would be great to better understand what actual failures have occurred in the context of a street driven vehicle. Sure blowing a head gaskets or increasing bearing wear sounds great on paper and in theory. Maybe it can even happen on a race car. Where is the actual and factual data to back that up? The question is still out there.... How many engines have you personally seen fail as a result of getting MBT wrong with WI where it is not also accompanied by knock? Lots of folks are tuning by knock and you know it. While it may not be perfect, it does work for folks without a dyno. Where are the accompanying reports of folks killing their engines with WI/WMI where they tuned on knock? There really is not even any data out there to suggest just putting a blower on an otherwise stock NA motor will decrease engine life and there is lot of naysaying around that. Still no actual cases of failure or reduced engine life to back it up where some other factor cannot be identified as the cause.

It would also be interesting to understand why you feel that I am necessarily over-spraying and getting MBT so wildy wrong that I will incur engine damage.