Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers

[Richard L]

If you just heat water in a strong chamber to a specific temperature and maintaining it electronically, you will automatically generate the required pressure, I posted a chart sometime ago regarding water pressure against temperature, I believe at 370C, the natural water pressure is something like 200 bar!!!

[PuntoRex]

That's impressive!

Richard, can HSV take this pressure ? :twisted:

[Richard L]

Defintely a no no no. The HSV is not suitable for this job.

I too having troubll finding the chart I posted on water pressure against temperature in a closed vessel on another post.

I think you need a diesel injector to do the job.

[JohnA]

Shame how little this thread has moved on since I last checked.

PuntoGT's errosion pics are definately not conclusive proof -- they could well be due to the poor filtration characteristics of K&N cones, which become laughably bad after cleaning them once or twice (just stick it in front of a strong light and you'll see what I mean!)

I've now got a SupraTT which I'll fit with precompressor injection and see how far the stock turbos can go.
They are good candidates for such experimentation, as they are undersized for 400+bhp, in fact they leave their efficiency islands right after 1bar.

The shape of the intake plumbing is kinda weird, so I need to figure out where to optimally locate the nozzle(s).

Fingers crossed.

[PuntoRex]

Originally Posted by JohnA

...just stick it in front of a strong light and you'll see what I mean!
....

There're holes everywhere, yes, but that's the way it works!

According to K&N, the filtering is not done by "blocking" the particles, but adhering them by the oil & the thin thread end splits. So you always need oil in such filter. (and do not use them after 20 times of cleaning, at that time, those thin hairs are mostly gone)

I've been using K&N for years without filtering problem. Yes indeed, it's not that clean as the stock paper filter can provide, but very close. And it out performs a lot in flow.


Let's admit it, those obvious radial traces on the blades can only be made by "fluid", not "particles" from bad filtering. Marks by particle impacts should look like dots (think sand blasting), not lines. Because they are always bouncing around when contacting solid surfaces. Fluid would mostly stay on the surface & flow down, that makes line marks.

I know the corroded blades in the picture is scaring (to some at least), but I absolutely hope to see other's successful results. (And actually I'm still using this same turbo now & it seems OK. )


I remember Larry had used pre-compressor injection for quite a while & the condition of his turbo was far better then mine.

About the jet location we were talking over a lot previously, I have a reverse idea that maybe getting the jet(s) further upstream would be better.

Why? Simple, droplets have more time to evaporate before touching the blades, and evaporation makes them smaller. As to the water which gathers on the inner wall, I can only guess the issue would be minor. Also as mentioned, there's always a step in the turbo inlet.

My pre-compressor jet was quite close to the blade, about only 8" far. It was located in the elbow and mosly "aimed" at the blade. In contrast, Larry's jet is further upstream, and injects vertically to the flow.....

That's what I'm thinking....

[JohnA]

Originally Posted by PuntoRex

There're holes everywhere, yes, but that's the way it works!

That's not my definition of a 'working' air filter mate :lol:

According to K&N, the filtering is not done by "blocking" the particles, but adhering them by the oil & the thin thread end splits.

I know their advertising literature mate, I've wasted money on them like so many others before me (and after!)

I've been using K&N for years without filtering problem. Yes indeed, it's not that clean as the stock paper filter can provide, but very close.

I could explain how they reach their filtering percentages, but won't bother (it's a con)
Have a look on my website under 'intake' if you're really interested.

And it out performs a lot in flow.

no it does not.
I've got the pressure measurments to prove it.

Let's admit it, those obvious radial traces on the blades can only be made by "fluid", not "particles" from bad filtering.

I've seen worn compressors that looked exactly like yours, and these people had never used W.I.

I know the corroded blades in the picture is scaring (to some at least), but I absolutely hope to see other's successful results. (And actually I'm still using this same turbo now & it seems OK. )

The compressor efficiency is a bit lower, no big deal, don't worry too much about it. Just use the stock filter from now on.

About the jet location we were talking over a lot previously, I have a reverse idea that maybe getting the jet(s) further upstream would be better.

I've just set up mine as upstream as possible (right after the MAF)
There is a 'split' afterwards, with the pipes going to each turbo (say 120degree turns) Then there is a 180degree turn for each turbo.
Who knows how the atomisation will be after all this torturous path...

When I dismantle the turbos in the future, I'll stick a W.I. nozzle right opposite to each compressor. Then we'll know which one works better.

Wish me good luck :wink:

[PuntoRex]

Originally Posted by JohnA

...

Just use the stock filter from now on.

Thanks for your advice, but I just can't.

The space for the stock air box has been occupied by water pump for years, and nowhere else to mount it. (if you get a chance to glance round the engine bay of a Punto, you'll know what I mean)

...

Anyway, about the air filter "myth", I've read some. I'd say they are very "interesting". Opposite opinions are everywhere, just like everything else.

In my own car & my own experiences, the cone type K&N works the best. (with proper heat shield)

About the so-called "stock type" plate filter from K&N, I think it's indeed useless. The area is just too small. In this case, stock filter does sometimes perform better. I know it because I had tried it. But cone type is another story.


This somewhat injured turbo on my car is the 3rd one I have. And I had also used K&N with the first 2. Their compressor blades were not like this.

So, it's quite "interesting", eh?:wink:


(Actually, as I'm getting older & older, I found it's harder & harder to distinguish truths & myths :? )

Originally Posted by JohnA

...
Wish me good luck :wink:

Yes, I surely do! I do wish you good luck & am also looking forward to see your results. :smile:

[JohnA]

Originally Posted by PuntoRex

(Actually, as I'm getting older & older, I found it's harder & harder to distinguish truths & myths :? )

I'm probably even older, and can now see many myths from miles away -- especially those fuelled by commercial interests

I do wish you good luck & am also looking forward to see your results. :smile:

I'll post pictures later on, I've now got the LED in the cabin to indicate when WI kicks in.
One good thing is that you can time a run with W.I., then another one with a different activation point, then pull the fuse and do another without WI

[JohnA]

here's more reading on the subject :smile:

http://www.turbineinletcooling.org/intro.html

http://www.turbineinletcooling.org/News/ETDec03.pdf

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5867977.html

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5930990.html

http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6173564.html

[JohnA]

OK, here's another issue that's been bugging me. Ideas are welcome.

Suppose that we want the water injection stream to hit the compressor blades straight on. If there is a 90degree turn of the pipes right before the turbo this might be easier than I thought -- my engine has two compressors, each one 'blessed' with such a steep turn :wink:

This is how we'd like things to be



However, since the air is moving at seriously high speeds and it has inertia, this is what we'll probably experience:



In that case, perhaps we could account for this by setting the nozzle a bit offset:



What do you guys think?

I've found some pictures of compressor blades erroded by injected water in the wrong size/pattern. OK these were power-generator turbines and they were being injected continously, but the principle is the same. (the leading edges of the front compressor blades were eroded, not unlike Punto's pic lol...)