Injecting prior to turbo comp' impellers

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by forcefed86

I'd love to check out that video. Can U email it to me? So your saying the air side of your atomizing nozzle is only seeing 7psi? How much water pressure are you using?

Thanks!

If you look under the Gallery section I just did a post in it with like to video and pressures at the end of my car thread (both around 7psi, you can see them on the lap top).

[stevieturbo]

What a read !!!! All based on turbos though.

What about a centrifugal supercharger being spun hard ?

I currently spin my Vortech V7 YSi to a little over 65k, which is above their reccomended limit ( assuming I see no belt slip )

Oddly the compressor map they post for this unit...they only go to 50k.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...ressor_Map.jpg

Currently makes around 1 bar at 5000rpm, 1.2 bar at 6000rpm, and 1.4bar at 7000rpm.

Although generally shift at around 6700.


I do run a 50/50 after the IC, but could easily fit a nozzle before the Compressor too.

Given the overspeeding and apparent innefficient use of the compressor...would injecting pre compressor be of much benefit ? If it makes life easier for the compressor...would that mean easier on the belt drive ?

I have a pretty large IC, and temps do remain within say 30degC of ambient at most times now. Where I live is generally pretty cool too. Rarely over 20degC

Ive never measured pre IC temps though. Must try and hook something up to do that.

[gluis]

Wow, I was wondering myself what would be the effects of pre turbo WMI. It is more interesting than I expected!

On the other hand, would a system like that benefit from having pre and post WMI? is that possible with our current system using similar pulses but different injector sizes? How can we calculate how much WM mixture needs to be injected before the turbine? Using MAF measurements perhaps? Why it would be better not to have an intercooler? (I don't want to make custom plumbing besides the WMI itself, that's why I'm mounting an AMR TMIC instead of a FMIC). So many questions arise from this post...

Thanks for such an interesting topic,

Guillermo

[Rotard]

I just got the water injection finished up on my RX7 last week, the nozzle is an external mixing nozzle utilizing *air* and *water* for atomization, it is a pumpless system as well. It's rated 600cc @ 20psi. My main purpose for it is a knock deterrent as I'm not really focused on extending my turbos map. Here are a few pictures, I will post any helpful information I come across.

[JoseCabra]

Hi,

after reading a lot about pre turbo water injection I decided to give it a go.
I have a 08 STi with a HFS-3 system from aquamist.
I did some CFD analysis on the intake and decided to put the nozzle about 10 inches before the turbo after a bend on the inside. I found this was the area that provided high turbulence and low pressure so the injection would atomize effectively and quickly before the turbo.
I used a 0.3 nozzle pre turbo and a 0.5 nozzle at the intercooler pre throttle body.

I have to say response at around 4500 rpms is excellent. The car just goes; although I have noticed a little compressor surge but I still have to do some datalogs to verify this.

Before using a single nozzle I used to have bogging down even after tuning ignition to compensate for the water injection.
Now even without tuning the car feels more linear.

I will be inspecting turbo blades later on for some damage but don't think there will be any.

In my opinion injecting pre turbo is more about getting the air to absorb the mixture quickly and not about doing it into the eye of the turbo.

[RICE RACING]

WARNING!

Be extremely careful about trusting general figures for flow rates on cheap copies of my mechanical WI system.

On a full price proper set up like I supply each and every single atomizer is hand modified and tested then stamped to give the proven flow rating capacity (not an "about" setting). Those atomizers as pictured vary wildly as they come from the supplier in both the quality of the air cap and the water side and each and every component needs to be modified & "correctly specified/modified" NOT JUST COPIED FROM ME and hope for the best!.

The precision metering in flow control valves again wildly copied by some are nothing like the quality of what I use and supply in RRWEP110 atomizers. Each and every single atomizer has its own flow sheet corresponding the the flow rate for a turn setting of the precision adjuster. Each and every jet achieves the atomization specification I state... there is a reason I charge what I do just for the atomizer as what some sell a whole WI kit! cheapo Rice Racing copy for.

Your mounting method for the atomizer is not recommended practice either, it is cheap and nasty to have the locking ring inside the air stream, its far harder to mount it properly but I suggest you go to the effort.

****To get the best out of this system you need an adjustable atomizer along with a flow rating that is legitimate and can be verified by anyone testing the unit**** Otherwise you are just guessing at the end of the day and you will not end up with the ultimate results WI can and does deliver.

The widely imitated system! original and the best below!











Tank



This is the thread you need to read about what goes into tuning WI and the recorded results as well, all measured to high precision and no guess work. http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=1590
You WILL NEED a fully adjustable atomizer to get best results and you will NEED to know how much you are injecting as well. otherwise you will get disappointing results and be chasing your tail.

When done right this stuff is magic

Originally Posted by JoseCabra

Hi,

after reading a lot about pre turbo water injection I decided to give it a go.
I have a 08 STi with a HFS-3 system from aquamist.
I did some CFD analysis on the intake and decided to put the nozzle about 10 inches before the turbo after a bend on the inside. I found this was the area that provided high turbulence and low pressure so the injection would atomize effectively and quickly before the turbo.
I used a 0.3 nozzle pre turbo and a 0.5 nozzle at the intercooler pre throttle body.

I have to say response at around 4500 rpms is excellent. The car just goes; although I have noticed a little compressor surge but I still have to do some datalogs to verify this.

Before using a single nozzle I used to have bogging down even after tuning ignition to compensate for the water injection.
Now even without tuning the car feels more linear.

I will be inspecting turbo blades later on for some damage but don't think there will be any.

In my opinion injecting pre turbo is more about getting the air to absorb the mixture quickly and not about doing it into the eye of the turbo.

Great for giving it a go. Keep us updated to any data logging or results you come up with.

[RICE RACING]

In my own testing examples I am coming to the point where I am making too much power (for a road car) and it's getting stupidly quick! I did not think I would get to that point, but the more I research followed by long term tests in my own fully instrumented vehicle, the more I am finding the same conclusions Sir Harry Ricardo found in the early 1900's.............. there is indeed no real limit to how much power you can make on Water Injection, and you will reach the practical limits of 2ndary things before you will find the limit of stable combustion

Obviously Harry Ricardo and Frank Walker were on the money, I too have after running my own bank of tests am finding exactly the same. When you follow their guidance (spelling out how to do this correctly) it just opens up another whole world of power and best of all durability that far exceeds what you had when running "less power" AMAZING STUFF!

[ricekikr]

Great thread. A couple of questions though. (I only got to page 15 + a couple other pages)

Which is better? Directly in front of the turbo vs on the filter head vs anywhere pre-turbo?

Which is better a 80* cone spray or a 160*cone spray?

I have a Garrett 50trim (46lb/min) what size jets should I use? Mainly I want to shift compressor map. I will be boosting around 30psi (which I think is the limit of my turbo), will the water injection pre-turbo help?

Will a separate pump/controller be needed or can it be T-connectored to the post turbo nozzle?

[Grant M]

I have read all 41 pages of this thread and feel I have increased my knowledge of this subject ten fold!

Is there an ideal distance to mount a pre turbo WI?

I am currently in the middle of building a Mazda rx4 with a bridge ported 13B, BorgWarner s300sx3 turbo. Admittedly it isn't a small turbo but it isn't a big one in my eyes.

Now from what I gather most of the I put says that pre comp WI sees the greater benefits when used on the factory turbos which are to small and are operating outside of their efficiencies? Would I still gain the benefits of pre comp WI on my S300 turbo?

Before I read the info on this thread my major concern from other people was that using pre comp WI was that the water may drop out of suspension in the air when passing through the intercooler, but from what I have read this suggestion has only been mentioned once or twice out of the whole 41 pages!

Am I right in saying that the water will not drop out of the air due to the fact that when the water air mix reaches the IC it will have evaporated in the heat, cooling the charged air, making it more dense (more oxygen) and not actually have the time to form into larger droplets and pool in the IC?

From water I gather spraying WI into the centre of a conduit and not in from the side ( spray hitting the other wall essentially pooling the water)

Would I gain a benefit to run WI after the IC aswell to further cool the air?

I am hoping to run a the WI system that Rice Racing uses as I have discussed a lot of things with him on other forums and he has a rotary application not to dissimilar from mine.