HFS-5 Evo VIII Initial Tuning Notes, feedback requested

[mad_viii]

Hello All,
I recently installed my HFS-5 and have made a few passes at tuning with mixed results. Just wanted to discuss and get some feedback.

The car:
2003 Evolution 8
HKS 272 cams
AEM Cam Gears (-2i, -ie)
Forced Performance Evo Green Turbo (bigger than stock, smaller than a 50 trim or gt 30)
4 X 750cc PTE Injectors
Turbo back echaust etc
Haltech Interceptor piggy back

The Dyno:
DynoDynamics lowboy, 1.0 correction factor (these numbers will be lower than dynojet and mustang)

364cc/min .8mm jet about 2" from the throttle body on straight distilled water
First time on the dyno in a couple months. Previous tune was at 320 whp with AFR's in the 10.5 range. Boost was 23psi tapering to 21psi. I had been messing with my boost control since the last tune and this evening I was only hitting 20 psi, creeping to 22psi, then tapering to 20psi again. First pass with the WAI turned off was right at 298 whp. I left the boost alone and leaned out the AFR;s to the high 11's and added a little timing (about 2 degrees max). With the haltech, pulling fuel also adds timing because you are reducing the load seen by the ecu. We were short of time so I nailed down a repeatable 320whp tune.
Result: 320whp, 11.8:1 afr, 20psi creeping to 22psi, tapering to 20 psi

455cc/min 1.0 mm jet 2" from T.B. 50/50 h2o, VP m1 methanol
By this tuning session I had the boost control sorted out. Everything seemed very happy. Pulled a little more fuel. Started getting missfire when we tried to up the boost so we left it where it was.
Result: 338.4whp 11.5:1 AFR, 23.5 psi taper to 22psi


725cc/min .7 mm jet 2" from T.B. .9mm jet 8" from throttle body 50/50 h2o, VP m1 methanol
EDIT: After thinking over these results and plugging some numbers into the calculator, It turns out I was not running 50/50 more like 65% h20 35% M1
The goal this time was to turn up the boost. Plugs were fresh ngk br8es solid, gapped down from 028 to 025. First run at the same boost as last time netted 320whp. Increasing boost 1.5 psi resulted in zero change to whp. Tried tweaking the timing, pulling a degree or two resulted in knock counts in the 5-9 range (using mitsulogger for logging the knock count from the ecu). Put the timing back where it was, knock went away. Leaned it out just a tad (11.8:1) and it carried some knock through the whole run, leaned it out a little more (12:1) and the next run was free of knock but the power only went up 1 or 2 whp. Started missing again in the midrange. Turned the boost back down 1psi, clean run. Ran it again and it started missing again. At this point we called it a night and I revered back to the previous setup and tune (333whp). Over all it just seemed very inconsistant, one run would knock (ecu reported knock counts over 3, timing gets pulled 1 degree for every 3 counts of knock so a six count = -2 degrees of timing) the next would be clean, one run would missfire, the next would be fine, etc etc.
Result: 323whp 12:1 AFR, 24.5 psi taper to 23psi

So far the best result has been with 50/50 at 455cc/min. I'm thinking that 725cc/min with 50/50 was just putting too much water in the charge giving my stockish ignition fits. The plan for next time is 725cc with 25% h20, 75%VPM1.

815cc/min 1.0mm jet 2" from tb, .8mm jet 8" from tb. 75% VPM1 25% distilled water
Result: 349.2 whp @ 24.5 psi 11.5:1 AFR
So, the changes from last time on the dyno are a proper 75%meth 25% water mix, additional .8mm jet for a total of 815cc/min at 100% duty cycle. My logs indicate that I'm right around 80% duty cycle max. Results this time around were fair. Since I was having ignition issues last time that continued on the street, I swapped out my plugs to some NGK race plugs (BR8EG). The plugs did the trick for now as the misfire has cleared up and non existent up to 26 psi. I was manly focused on learning to run the dyno and tune at the same time rather than just focusing on the tune while Andrew runs the dyno. All the runs were clean up top, from 5,000 rpm and up zero knock and room for more boost or timing leaving a little on the table. Down low was another story though, It was carrying knock from 3,000 trailing off between 4,500 and 5,000. I ran out of time (had paying customers to get on the dyno) before I got to the botton of the knock counts, could be the way the boost controller is setup at the moment, it tends to spike a little then drop a little then level out, I suspect this is part of the problem because it will cause the timing to jump around as the load changes. I have since hooked up the haltech to log the output of the flow sensor and the actual ignition timing. Next time out will be the same setup with better logging and little more time working on the spoolup area where it was knocking this time.

[Richard L]

These are excellent feedback/

It is a shame that the ignition will not sustain the combustion. Perhaps reducing the spark gap may help.

I have a question, what power is the turbo capable of?

[mad_viii]

Originally Posted by Richard L

These are excellent feedback/

It is a shame that the ignition will not sustain the combustion. Perhaps reducing the spark gap may help.

I have a question, what power is the turbo capable of?

Well, we have seen as high as 375 hp at the wheels at about 24psi on our uncorrected dyno dynamics. We have not pushed the limits of one of these turbos yet on 100% meth yet so time will tell.

Next time on the dyno I will try stepping up again and using a true 50/50 mix, as mentioned I made an error when going from 75%water 25%meth to 50/50 so I think I was running more like 65% water 35% meth. If the ignition continues to breakup I'll be moving to an HKS DLI unit.

[mad_viii]

Swapping out the plugs from ngk BR8ES Solids gapped at 024 to NGK Race BR8EG at the stock gap (.022) seemed to quell the misfires this time around. The plug design seems much better than the BR8ES in that the electrode is much finer and the strap is cut back from the tip to un shroud the spark a bit. Nice thing is at 022 these plugs feel the same as the BR8ES gapped at 026 (no noticeable loss of power from the smaller gap) and they can take more boost with the stock coils :smile:

[Richard L]

"8" is quite a cold plug if I read it right. Can you try a hotter plug? Water/methanol injection produces quite a cold burn.

Things are improving at a good rate... Plug gaps doesn't seemed affect power. I remember the 800BHP+ rallycross car runs 0.4mm gaps.

I have a few questions:

1) At what point did you start the injection?
2) Are you using any restrictors supplied with the kit?

[mad_viii]

Plugs:
Well, I wanted to try a 7 (stock range) but they do not have a 7 in the eg series, so far the eg's are the only plugs that have been happy with the WAI. All the other es series plugs seem to start poping after about two weeks of use (Single pop rather than the typical stutter box rapid misfire). I'm planning on doing an HKS DLI II in the near future, but for now the br8eg's seem to be the most comfortable with the current setup. Once I get the DLI, I'll try out the br7es's again and see how they do.

Start Point:
I don't have any logs yet with the flow sensor output, but on a 3rd gear pull on the dyno, the spray seems to start around 9-10 psi. Previously, I tried to raise the start point by 1 or 2 clicks on the dial in the dds 3 control box, this only seemed to make the knock worse so I went back to where it was.

Restrictor:
Yes, I'm using the largest one, IIRC it's rated up to 900cc's


Up to this point I have been at a disadvantage from a logging standpoint. When using an interceptor to modify fuel, you also modify timing due to the ecu load calc relying on the maf signal that is being modified to control the fuel. Also, what they call 1 degree of advance in the interceptor maps is probably not 1 degree but rather some random small increment. Add to that the fact that you cannot use standard loggers to log the real timing because the interceptor modifies the signal after it leaves the ecu.

Now that I have the flow sensor output and the ignition timing logged in the haltech, things should go much better this saturday

[Richard L]

Is haltech an interceptor and not a stand alone?

[mad_viii]

Originally Posted by Richard L

Is haltech an interceptor and not a stand alone?

Well, haltech obviously makes stand alone EMS's but in this case I'm using the haltech interceptor which is, as the name implies, and interceptor rather than a stand alone

It's a great product for those that need to maintain OBDII functionality for emissions reasons like myself.

[Richard L]

Now I know. All the time I was wonder why your tuned information is limited.

Altering the MAF signal affects fuel and igniton. Could be the reason why you get knock as low RPM. Knock is more likely to happen as low RPM+Advanced ignitions.

Can you print out a dyno chart with AFR and post it here?

[keithmac]

Have a look on http://www.handheldhalo-datalogging.co.uk/ if you haven`t already got a datalogger, with this you can see the timing demanded by the cars ECU, if you factor in your correction from the Haltech you`ll end up with actual ignition timing which is always worth knowing.