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Old 01-10-2004, 04:35 PM
b_boy b_boy is offline
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Default An idea to reassure WI users and prevent catastrophic damage

From another thread on a different forum (NASIOC.com), I'd be interested in thoughts on rigging a "fail-safe" injector/jet that "reacts" to any perturbation of water flow. It means more sensors, but also more confidence and possibly more wide spread use of WI:

Quote:
It seems that total confidence in WI is what is needed, and this means constant monitoring, short term back-up systems, and computer control over shutting down fuel or blowing off boost in the even of a clog or failure.

Similar worries must have been present when fuel injection was new, blockage or failure of an fuel injector could lead to the same lean detonation favorable condition, yet we don't worry about fuel injectors now.

The Aquamist DDS2 system offers some relief by monitoring flow and the option of signalling any of numerous devices of a problem. Additionally, I'd like to see a system that provides water even in the event pump failure, high speed valve failure, or development of a clog in one jet and not another. More monitoring at each possible point of failure, and a system of compensation for any failure would go along way to reassuring WI users.

One additional means of off-setting a pump failure is to equip the system with an "accumulator" that will sustain pump pressure and flow even after a complete pump meltdown. Development of a 'back up' jet to be used in the even of a component failure, that only injected water in the event of a failure would also make a more fail-safe system (perhaps using boost pressure as a source of water flow). In fact, "over injection", that is injecting lots of water (flooding), would be an excellent response to any failure, one that would safely indicate a problem (power loss) and also protect the engine from detonation.
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  #2  
Old 02-10-2004, 02:16 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: An idea to reassure WI users and prevent catastrophic da

Quote:
Originally Posted by b_boy
From another thread on a different forum (NASIOC.com), I'd be interested in thoughts on rigging a "fail-safe" injector/jet that "reacts" to any perturbation of water flow. It means more sensors, but also more confidence and possibly more wide spread use of WI:

Quote:
It seems that total confidence in WI is what is needed, and this means constant monitoring, short term back-up systems, and computer control over shutting down fuel or blowing off boost in the even of a clog or failure.

Similar worries must have been present when fuel injection was new, blockage or failure of an fuel injector could lead to the same lean detonation favorable condition, yet we don't worry about fuel injectors now.

The Aquamist DDS2 system offers some relief by monitoring flow and the option of signalling any of numerous devices of a problem. Additionally, I'd like to see a system that provides water even in the event pump failure, high speed valve failure, or development of a clog in one jet and not another. More monitoring at each possible point of failure, and a system of compensation for any failure would go along way to reassuring WI users.

One additional means of off-setting a pump failure is to equip the system with an "accumulator" that will sustain pump pressure and flow even after a complete pump meltdown. Development of a 'back up' jet to be used in the even of a component failure, that only injected water in the event of a failure would also make a more fail-safe system (perhaps using boost pressure as a source of water flow). In fact, "over injection", that is injecting lots of water (flooding), would be an excellent response to any failure, one that would safely indicate a problem (power loss) and also protect the engine from detonation.
I agree that for water injection to work and more wide spread, monitoring water flow is very important. There is certain proven method currently used on fuel injection - constant line pressure, flow-calibrated fuel injectors, lambda feeback etc, all part are now well developed and highly reliable - should one go to such a length to impliment it on a water injection system. Even if someone wants to market such a system, would the market afford to buy it.

Aquamist has a system almost immulate the FI system but we do not sell that many due to the high cost. Water delivery quantity is a not a problem for us, as commented many time on many threads. We have Shurflo based systems and alcohol systems but only available on special orders.

Storage of pressurised water is a concern with us - a small leak over night and cause hugh problems in the next morning.

I am happy to take anyone's suggestion and help anyone try to develop a low-cost, highly reliable system as described by b_boy. Competition is healthy.
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  #3  
Old 06-10-2004, 02:25 AM
b_boy b_boy is offline
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In your view Richard what is the safest way to "stop" the engine from self- destructing? Fuel cut? Boost cut? Short but sufficient water surge? Other?

It would seem for the sake of simplicity, that something that directly acts to prevent detonation, but allows for continued transportation. For the majority of readers we are talking about street cars, not just those devoted to racing. Given that tuning with water injection preserves the engine's safe operation without boost, perhaps attacking boost is the simplest link to disrupt.

I do not know how the blow off valve is signalled, but perhaps electronically opening the blow off valve would serve to relieve the threat of detonation, or another similar atomospheric opening.

DDS2 could send voltage to a valve, that remained open until water flow is restored. The difficulty is that under normal operation, water flow is not continous.
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  #4  
Old 14-10-2004, 03:01 AM
DuMaurier 7 DuMaurier 7 is offline
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Default Re: An idea to reassure WI users and prevent catastrophic da

Having simple safety systems like the ones discribed in the last thread entitled "maintain your system" , I think is more than enough protection, anything more would just be overkill . If a fault occurs and boost is cut via the DDS and a solenoid , boost controller deactivation etc., Why not just stay off the gas until the problem is rectified instead of complicating things further with "over injection" and / or having a "back up jet", I dont think putting LOTS of water into a motor would be good for it !.


Quote:
Originally Posted by b_boy
From another thread on a different forum (NASIOC.com), I'd be interested in thoughts on rigging a "fail-safe" injector/jet that "reacts" to any perturbation of water flow. It means more sensors, but also more confidence and possibly more wide spread use of WI:

Quote:
It seems that total confidence in WI is what is needed, and this means constant monitoring, short term back-up systems, and computer control over shutting down fuel or blowing off boost in the even of a clog or failure.

Similar worries must have been present when fuel injection was new, blockage or failure of an fuel injector could lead to the same lean detonation favorable condition, yet we don't worry about fuel injectors now.

The Aquamist DDS2 system offers some relief by monitoring flow and the option of signalling any of numerous devices of a problem. Additionally, I'd like to see a system that provides water even in the event pump failure, high speed valve failure, or development of a clog in one jet and not another. More monitoring at each possible point of failure, and a system of compensation for any failure would go along way to reassuring WI users.

One additional means of off-setting a pump failure is to equip the system with an "accumulator" that will sustain pump pressure and flow even after a complete pump meltdown. Development of a 'back up' jet to be used in the even of a component failure, that only injected water in the event of a failure would also make a more fail-safe system (perhaps using boost pressure as a source of water flow). In fact, "over injection", that is injecting lots of water (flooding), would be an excellent response to any failure, one that would safely indicate a problem (power loss) and also protect the engine from detonation.
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2006, 06:28 AM
cheekychimp cheekychimp is offline
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Richard,

I was actually going to start a new topic on this, but this seems a very suitable thread to put this. I have yet to purchase a WI system from you. You may remember I visited you the summer before last. I have a V6 VR4 like the one your colleague was driving at the time.

Anyway, I digress !!! I ws reading a thread on the Evolution.net forums regarding different WI systems available as well as functions and failsafe mechanisms available. Given that this forum is dedicated to WI, I am kind of surprised that something like that hasn't sprung up on here. I imagine a lot of the questions have been raised and answered but it would perhaps be nice to collate and consolidate into a thread where we could all look, discuss and analyse!

I too have been looking at a multi-nozzle accumulator approach, because as stated previously it would allow for a continued supply of water in the event of pump failure giving safe injection whilst loss of flow is detected and a boost cut triggered. Multiple nozzles also mean that it is very unlikely that all nozzles would fail/clog simultaneously meaning that reduced rather than no water flow would occur.

I am trying to decide on whether direct port or an intercooler pipe located nozzle is better. Distribution by way of direct port seems better but I am concerned that a failed nozzle in a direct port system might leave a cylinder starved of charge cooling whereas a multiple nozzle 'downstream' setup would likely fair better if a single nozzle failed.

Perhaps you could elaborate some more on the 'special order' systems. I know for one I have discussed Shurflo pumps with you and the problems of tuning the diagnostic systems to work with the high pressures those pumps involve. This is another reason I feel a 120 psi accumulator located at the engine bay with an aquamist pump in the boot/trunk is a good idea.

Please Richard could you give us an idea of all the various 'failsafe' and diagnostic components available, what they do and how much they cost. Advantages and disadvantages or limitations of each. I know it is work for you, but given the different fuel management and setups that people use it might help us to come up with ideas for improving kits and or help you to put together packages better matched to particular cars and fuel management systems.

I for one would likely be willing to spend more money on a system proven to be almost impossible to fail because it would give me the confidence to push the tune further. I think you once said that if someone is too paranoid of an engine failure to tune properly with WI then WI may simply not be for them. I think that's true up to a point Richard, but there are also a lot of us who want to innovate. I myself have taken on the task of building a setup with a so called 'bullet proof' turbo that requires boost pressures of over 25 psi to even start to work properly for my application. An aggresive tune with WI would thus be far more beneficial but also potentially dangerous to me than if I was using the stock 7 psi seen on some vehicles.

Paul.
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2006, 04:15 AM
turbojack turbojack is offline
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A WI system needs some maintenance just like other systems on a car. Above all do the install right the first time and take your time and plan things with maintenance in mind.

Get the jet adapters so servicing the jets after the initial install is less painful/easier.

Without something like a DDS3, WI users should actually check the spray pattern once in while. IMO no need to go crazy but if the tune is lean and WI is needed/used to help with this then you need to pay (spend some time under the hood double checking things) to play.......jet adapters help with this.

Be careful and use liquids from sealed containers to help avoid contamination.

Check fluid lines and wiring looms for problems such as rubbing/chafing against another part/component/body structure.....etc. (planning the install carefully can sometimes help prevent problems with this)

During the install make access to the filter(s) easy for back flushing as part of regular WI maintenance.

During the install make sure of good elec connections using proper soldering techniques and heat shrinking or otherwise to prevent the elements from getting into the connections/splices.

Be creative if necessary when doing the install so components that should not get hot, actually do not get hot after hard use. If necessary add a cooling duct of some sort for additional airflow.

When mechanics do oil changes they also at the least (or should) visually look at other non oil/filter related things, with WI added to a car/truck, it too needs to be reviewed and it too needs to be included in a maintenance plan....oil change time is a good time for taking a visual of the WI system.

Also review the trouble shooting threads for things that seem to creep up from time to time for ideas in making the install better or more fool proof.

Some of the trouble shooting threads describe how to test for a pump not working, this test can also be used as part of a maintneance plan that consists of checking the jets spray pattern by manually activating the pump under the hood while the jet are in a measured container (again jet adapters make this process much easier).

For the money and the potential problem they could cost on a tuned car, buy extra jets and swap them out once a year or more often if you want, they can be tested but if the cost is cheaper then your time to test, swap them out.

Sorry for the long post, I just wanted to express my opinion that besides spending money for more or better saftey controls you need to also do some carefull work during the install and include some maintenance work afterwards.
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2006, 05:56 AM
simple simple is offline
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Gentlemen,
Most modern cars already have fail-safe system in place. My AUDI will pull timing back as far as needed to compensate for knock which will become evident in case of WI failure. It does it quickly and effectively. So I do not see a need for fail-safe systems on most new street cars. However, saying so, if motor if highly modified and operates very high boost levels timing pull back may not be sufficient.
This is the example of timing pull back due to knock. Collum marked as CF (Correction Factor) is a reduction in timing done by ECU based on high knock level.

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