A few questions concerning preTurbo water injection

[mrx79]

Hi,
i'am reading here for a long time, but never had the time to install/test my WI system in my car. Today i made some first testruns.

As a background: Engine is a Honda B16A1 turbocharged with a GTX2860 .48ar T3 Turbine, running stable boost of around 1.1bar on pumpgas (98 ROZ).

based on RICE RACINGs threads i decided to go pre-turbo injection.
Currently installed is a 350ccm nozzle. I run my 550ccm fuel injectors at around 80%dc at redline and at activation boost of 0,6bar they have aprox. 23%dc.

I run normaly rich mixtures (i know propably too rich for pure water) of lambda 0,8 under boost. Timing is normaly retarted. Aprox. 0,5?/psi as a rough guideline of how much retard i'am running.

My first tests where without meth, but i will try later.

Maybe someone can say something about my experiences:
- i lost aprox. 35hp with my setup. no advance or lambda changes. Just add water.
- with water activated at 0,6bar, my spoolup is delayed by about 500rpm later then without water.
- the overall boost i lowered (with same WG and boost controller settings) by 0,1-0,15bar

[mrx79]

I also wanted to add, that i don't see a temp drop in my IAT (Bosch TMAP) Sensor which is located at the outlet of my intercooler tank. Is that normal? maybe sensor too slow for a 3rd gear pass or is it a sign of that my water is not properly vaporized

[parmas]

First running pre-turbo with intercooler, in theory, it will not gain any IAT drop in temps.

Although with pre-turbo spool up time should be increased not decreased.

Did you test the setup on dyno or on street? If yes do a dyno map with and without water injection and compare maps. Do not care about bhp and torque since with water injection you should see a drop in power and torque because tuning would be needed.

Please post some pictures of the setup of the pre-turbo and engine bay..

[mrx79]

Hi, thanks for the reply.
Can you explain why spoolup will suffer from pre-turbo injection?

I will try to make some Pictures, but it's hard to see because it's very tight in the engine bay and the main components are behind the front bumper and the power steering pump.

But basicaly, you can think of the Installation like that.
The turbo sits in front of the engine. the compressor intake faces to the driver side. From there a tube goes streight to the left (when you are in front of the car) to the fender.

In the Fender there sits the air filter inside an Aluminium case which has an opening at the front for air intake.

The nozzle is inserted thru a small hole on the side of the airfilter and is fixed after the airfilter. from there to the Turbo it's aprox. 15-20cm to the turbo inlet (streight).

After that the pluming is a normal FMIC Installation, nothing Special.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by mrx79

Hi,
i'am reading here for a long time, but never had the time to install/test my WI system in my car. Today i made some first testruns.

As a background: Engine is a Honda B16A1 turbocharged with a GTX2860 .48ar T3 Turbine, running stable boost of around 1.1bar on pumpgas (98 ROZ).

based on RICE RACINGs threads i decided to go pre-turbo injection.
Currently installed is a 350ccm nozzle. I run my 550ccm fuel injectors at around 80%dc at redline and at activation boost of 0,6bar they have aprox. 23%dc.

I run normaly rich mixtures (i know propably too rich for pure water) of lambda 0,8 under boost. Timing is normaly retarted. Aprox. 0,5?/psi as a rough guideline of how much retard i'am running.

My first tests where without meth, but i will try later. WI alone will give gains IF you are knock limited in your set up, otherwise it will generally cost you power, especially if you do not adjust your calibration to take effect of the water injection. My suggestion is try the different injectant fluid and report back.

Maybe someone can say something about my experiences:
- i lost aprox. 35hp with my setup. no advance or lambda changes. Just add water.
- with water activated at 0,6bar, my spoolup is delayed by about 500rpm later then without water.
- the overall boost i lowered (with same WG and boost controller settings) by 0,1-0,15bar

These are all normal findings.

Some of the loss can be recovered by 'beefing up' your spark, even if you have no audible misfires I can gurantee you that it will be much harder to initiate combustion when running water injection on an otherwise optimized calibration for fuel alone.

All the other standard knowledge here applies, you will loose power when you run water injection at your Lambda, even if you go optimal of 0.92 you will still loose a tiny bit of power over the fuel alone set up.

IAT finding is generally correct, it will only have a noticible effect on lowering temperature if the compressor is worked hard or the IC is undersized.

This above is one of the reasons I changed to soley WM50 mixture as an injectant.

Hope this helps.

[RICE RACING]

Try WM50 (same flow rate), set your Lambda to the same 0.8 as on fuel alone, and report back, you should see a power increase on this alone (no ign altering).

[mrx79]

Hallo,
thanks very much. Meth is on the way to me and i will test it as soon as it arrives.

I also have one question i was wondering about.
In the beginning i was worrying that my water mist could recondensate in the intercooler and then kept in the end tank of the intercooler.

But after a full tank i removed the IC and checked, there where no sign of water in it.

Do you think, that all water kept vaporized until the air/water mix reaches the cylinder?
What if 100% humidity is reached before all water is vaporized in the compressor (can that actualy happen?) will the rest be transported in the cylinder and vaporize there under pressure?

so basicaly the question is, how much a in cylinder effect (cleaning, knock supression, further charge cooling, retarding of the burn process) could i expect when injecting pre-turbo?

Thanks

[RICE RACING]

The water will NEVER pool, it will condense back into a liquid, however it will stay in very fine atomized form, its hard to explain on a computer, but it just stays in suspension in the air stream... it will enter the cylinder in very fine mist form and then turn from liquid in suspension into a vapor then finally turn to steam under the effect of compression of the cylinder.

You will like the WM50 much better, remember by mass not volume.

[mrx79]

Thats good News... i will let you know what MW50 will bring up. Much thanks already for your words.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by mrx79

Hi, thanks for the reply.
Can you explain why spoolup will suffer from pre-turbo injection?

I will try to make some Pictures, but it's hard to see because it's very tight in the engine bay and the main components are behind the front bumper and the power steering pump.

But basicaly, you can think of the Installation like that.
The turbo sits in front of the engine. the compressor intake faces to the driver side. From there a tube goes streight to the left (when you are in front of the car) to the fender.

In the Fender there sits the air filter inside an Aluminium case which has an opening at the front for air intake.

The nozzle is inserted thru a small hole on the side of the airfilter and is fixed after the airfilter. from there to the Turbo it's aprox. 15-20cm to the turbo inlet (streight).

After that the pluming is a normal FMIC Installation, nothing Special.

I meant that water injecting pre turbo should boost earlier than without due to colder/denser air is being sucked by the turbo.

Re the pre-turbo nozzle setup, I am understanding that the nozzle is installed further away from the turbo, is this right? Other pre-turbo setup I saw were injecting directly into compressor wheel

What heat-range and gap size are your plugs? Also what is the engine compression?