A few questions concerning preTurbo water injection

[RICE RACING]

Good luck to you, FACT stands same boost = same torque, with no need to molest the timing to chase power that is only less cause the boost is lower on WI

No need to molest your timing, just decrease the amount to more correct state for your engine, simple.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by parmas

You cannot make more power with water/meth injection especially because you are leaving ignition advance the same!

With water + meth injection there is need for ignition advance due to slower burn rate. So to compare you need to max your ignition advance without water/meth injection until you see some power/torque go down and back to 2-3 Degrees for safety then turn on water/meth injection, set 15% if you are intercooled or 25% if you are non-intercooled, put car on dyno, increase advance after 2psi boost where water injection begins. Keep increasing ignition advance until you see a drop in power and again retard 2-3 Degrees. Now compare and you are doing more power and torque with water injection on !

What Air Temps are you seeing?

You are mad!

You are basically giving this poor man advice to blow up his engine! that is very poor of you, what cars have you done or set up ??????? not many by the sound of it.

Please do not hand out advice to people when you have not one idea of what you are talking about or the end disaster it will cause the owner.

Thanks!

[RICE RACING]

This is some of the worst advise I have had the misfortune to read anywhere on the internet, I am dumbfounded that you would hand out advice like "keep increasing timing until you see a drop in power" LOL............ More likely he will see his crank shaft drop out of his car before he will see a drop in power from the incessant KNOCK!

Your quoted advise has to be the single most stupid and dangerous statement around.

~22BTDC is allot of advance!!!! already, he does not need any more, given the fuel quality @ hand, the totally arbitrary guidance on ratio's and applications is plain outrageous and shows you have done nothing but read off the internet, not really doing any real testing yourself on this subject to be handing out nuggets of wisdom as you have.

It's patently obvious to anyone that if the user simply does NOTHING ELSE but run equal boost he has not lost any power on the heavy WM50 mixture, this is contrary to your best internet research and re postings!

In the interest of his set up he would be far better off doing the following.

A) Winding up his boost on the original atomizer (as that is the only size he has now).
B) Decreasing the rate and running the same boost, he will have more power than on fuel alone and no need to touch his already high timing settings.

~2500millibar absolute (2.5 bar *assuming he is not in Mexico!!! lets say 1.5 bar gauge pressure) is what he should go to, enough injector to do it, and on WM50 it will be safe and boost for boost it will be line ball. And ZERO risk for the end user with a broken engine bill on random internet cut and paste advise.

To save your motor and sanity I have pm'd my personal email, feel free to contact me for proper guidance.

[mrx79]

Hi,
thanks for all your advices. Please keep the thread clean. I think everyone has to think about every advice he is given. If one follows blindly then things will brake and that will happen often enough.

As i saied earlier, i'am not compfortable with high advance values under boost. Even if they make power in the first place, but even if no knock is present, things can be stressed and fail, especialy on the long run.

Thats why i decided (based on all factors, my own calculations and all tips) first to try less WI.

I will keep you updated.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

This is some of the worst advise I have had the misfortune to read anywhere on the internet, I am dumbfounded that you would hand out advice like "keep increasing timing until you see a drop in power" LOL............ More likely he will see his crank shaft drop out of his car before he will see a drop in power from the incessant KNOCK!

When you tune for ignition timing you always beware of knock. If MRX9 is tuning on dyno with an expert tuner, normally there should be knock ears to prevent it. If tuning on street, you can datalog knock while increasing ignition timing 1-2 degree at a time.

Your quoted advise has to be the single most stupid and dangerous statement around.

~22BTDC is allot of advance!!!! already, he does not need any more, given the fuel quality @ hand, the totally arbitrary guidance on ratio's and applications is plain outrageous and shows you have done nothing but read off the internet, not really doing any real testing yourself on this subject to be handing out nuggets of wisdom as you have.

Every engine is different, you are being stupid stating it is a lot. If two brothers had the same engine but one is 8.5 compression while the other is 12.5 compression, 22degrees could be a lot for 12.5 while on 8.5 is too far away!

It's patently obvious to anyone that if the user simply does NOTHING ELSE but run equal boost he has not lost any power on the heavy WM50 mixture, this is contrary to your best internet research and re postings!

In the interest of his set up he would be far better off doing the following.

A) Winding up his boost on the original atomizer (as that is the only size he has now).
B) Decreasing the rate and running the same boost, he will have more power than on fuel alone and no need to touch his already high timing settings. I don't agree, although that depend what tune he actually has. As I said when you input water injection especially with methanol you need advance to keep up the power. Go empty tank in a fuel station and tell the owner to give you his best octane fuel out there and fill up the tank and you will see why advance and high octane is important! You will run rich as hell making poor power.

~2500millibar absolute (2.5 bar *assuming he is not in Mexico!!! lets say 1.5 bar gauge pressure) is what he should go to, enough injector to do it, and on WM50 it will be safe and boost for boost it will be line ball. And ZERO risk for the end user with a broken engine bill on random internet cut and paste advise.

To save your motor and sanity I have pm'd my personal email, feel free to contact me for proper guidance.

MRX9 Check this feature out and decide for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPFZWd8wj4

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by parmas

MRX9 Check this feature out and decide for yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkPFZWd8wj4

LOL I think you belong on Devils Own / AEM / *insert some other trashy forum* or similar ? LOL

I say again..... what have you done?????? sounds to me like nothing You can't even state your case without contradicting yourself, he makes the same power with much higher octane and same air fuel setting !!! SAME ADVANCE!!!!!!! *my knowledge and advise did not come off the internet or from others, I tested and do my own theory, how about you???????*

Don't worry he has made his own mind up

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by parmas

When injecting water or meth or combined ignition advance must be increased according injection amounts. You will ALWAYS LOOSE POWER when injecting water/meth without increasing advance.

NOTES:

1 . The introduction of water will allow higher boost pressures to be run without detonation. Higher pressures will increase torque

2 . Water Injection allows ignition timing to be more aggressive

3 . Boost does not automatically mean retard your timing

4 . The cooling of potential hot spots in the combustion chamber defeats pre-ignition, the most destructive form of uncontrolled or unplanned combustion

5 . Water injection has a cooling effect on the engine head, valves, and cylinder

6 . Excessive amounts of ignition retard will cause a loss of power and overheating

7 . Water does not burn. There will be no combusting of the hydrogen in the H2O

8 . Injection of 15% water reduces knock better than increasing fuel 4-5 Octane

9 . Injection of water reduces inlet air temperature equal more power


Check this website if any of you say otherwise http://mywintek.com/waterinjection.htm

LOL @ your "notes" = worthless
Your STUPID: none qualified "notes" do nothing for the posters question nor did you pick up on the FACT that he is making exactly the same power on WM50 as he does on petrol alone if you take into account the lower boost pressure. Your post about "it should spool up faster" with pre turbo WI shows you #1 have no idea of what you are talking about and #2 have never done this let alone run a car with it!
Your 9 point plan is "retarded" Wikipedia ish in quality and context.
I suggest you maybe come back to this forum and post advice when you have actually run a water injected car and can contribute something of your own???????? just an idea most who do post here have actually a mountain of experience with water injection over decades on some cases, and speak from first hand experience......... not re hashed generalities.

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by parmas

First running pre-turbo with intercooler, in theory, it will not gain any IAT drop in temps.

Although with pre-turbo spool up time should be increased not decreased.

Did you test the setup on dyno or on street? If yes do a dyno map with and without water injection and compare maps. Do not care about bhp and torque since with water injection you should see a drop in power and torque because tuning would be needed.

Please post some pictures of the setup of the pre-turbo and engine bay..

Another total rubbish post!

I have many dozens........ actually probably hundred or more cars!, some of which are the fastest in their respective countries that run LARGE CHARGE COOLERS and ALL of them show reduced Inlet air temperature!!!!!!! with pre turbo water injection, @ 43psi boost some report +15 deg C reduction right after the fitment of pre turbo water injection.......... so much for your "theory"

It is actually one of the first things my customers call me to talk about, that they cant believe how much cooler the temperatures are!......... they must all be wrong??????????

Many others since Adam was a boy have all run tests (their own) administering just enough WM50 to achieve performance gains, certified gains, not one off wonders or doctored results, again contradicting your nuggets of internet searched wisdom of generalities. They must all be wrong too???????

Not sure which rock you have crawled out form under but I strongly suggest you take my advise and get a car, do some testing and come here and learn from people who know about this subject THEN maybe post some advise to others ????????

[RICE RACING]

It is quite easy if given enough information to work out the current thermal efficiency of the OP's engine set up.

I can tell you for a fact from my experience that the token gains from increasing ~22BTDC will be FAR MORE DETRIMENTAL to the health of his engine V's unleashing the power from extra boost pressure and the associated density increase it will offer and thus power level.

I can not overstate the DANGER is screwing around with advance to chase power especially when you are talking 98 oct petrol and the level you are starting at now.

I have worked on lots of engine types from 6.0:1 compression to 10:1 compression and all types of porting and camshaft specifications, from 98 oct petrol to methanol and let me tell you there is little gain and lots of grief in chasing token gains by using garbage advise Re ign timing and water injection crack pot internet theories by people who have only read about it rather than do it over decades.

If you provide me with pertinent details on my email or here? I will run the calculation for you.

I currently as a working teaching aid have a car at ~26% thermal efficiency and on the maximum of the standard fuel system and will fit a pre turbo WM50 system to it and show the results, that engine runs 8.5:1 CR and spark lead much less than what is being discussed here with same Lambda of the pure petrol first up test.

Excessive spark lead is the biggest killer of engines, and a very mis understood topic, and one lots of people get wrong, especially when trying to chase power gains.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by RICE RACING

LOL I think you belong on Devils Own / AEM / *insert some other trashy forum* or similar ? LOL

I say again..... what have you done?????? sounds to me like nothing I am no business but I tune engines from qualified experts lessons who know how to get the job done as it should

You can't even state your case without contradicting yourself, he makes the same power with much higher octane and same air fuel setting !!! SAME ADVANCE!!!!!!! *my knowledge and advise did not come off the internet or from others, I tested and do my own theory, how about you???????*

Can you quote where did he ever said that he made the same power with WI. I only found 2 posts saying : " i lost aprox. 35hp with my setup. no advance or lambda changes. Just add water"

OR

"max. tq /wo WI = 355Nm
max. tq /w WI same AFR =323Nm
max. tq /w WI -5% AFR = 331Nm"



Don't worry he has made his own mind up

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