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Old 19-05-2016, 07:10 PM
parmas parmas is offline
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Default Flow vs Pressure

I am making this thread to ease my mind that I am going the right route.

This Aquamist graph shows that with an Aquamist nozzle of 1.2mm @ 160psi the pump is able to flow 600cc.

If you use 4 x 1.2mm nozzles will the pump be able to flow 600cc x 4 = 2400cc?
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  #2  
Old 19-05-2016, 08:59 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

No, it won't flow 2400cc/min. This is because the pump cannot sustain 160 psi at 2400cc/min. You need a more powerful pump.
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Old 19-05-2016, 10:32 PM
parmas parmas is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
No, it won't flow 2400cc/min. This is because the pump cannot sustain 160 psi at 2400cc/min. You need a more powerful pump.
So the chart displays the maximum flow in case one nozzle is used. In that case if I want the maximum all I can do is 200cc x 4 nozzles per pump?
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Old 19-05-2016, 11:10 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

The maximum flow at 160psi is approximately 1600cc/min. This is the aquatec 5800-series pump.

All pumps on the market are quoting "dead-headed" pressure. Totally meaningless. As soon as the spray starts, the pressure will drop. Higher "dead head" pressure setting will drop much faster than a lower "dead-head" pressure setting.
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Old 20-05-2016, 06:15 AM
parmas parmas is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
The maximum flow at 160psi is approximately 1600cc/min. This is the aquatec 5800-series pump.

All pumps on the market are quoting "dead-headed" pressure. Totally meaningless. As soon as the spray starts, the pressure will drop. Higher "dead head" pressure setting will drop much faster than a lower "dead-head" pressure setting.
Let's take 1600cc/min as Maximum flow (0.9mm(M5.3) nozzle) for a 4cylinder engine :

A - 1 Pump = 1600cc @ 160psi = (400cc x 4 nozzles)

Good for mixing 75% pump fuel and 25% Water/Methanol


B - 2 Parrallel Pumps = 3200cc @ 160psi = (800cc x 4 nozzles)

Good for mixing 50% pump fuel and 50% Water/Methanol


C - 2 Series Pumps = 1600cc @ 320psi = (400cc x 4 nozzles)

BEST for mixing 75% pump fuel and 25% Water/Methanol. SUPER FINE MIST


D - 3 Parallel Pumps = 4800cc @ 160psi = (1200cc x 4 nozzles)

Good for mixing 25% pump fuel and 75% Water/Methanol


E - 2 Parrallel + 2 Series Pumps = 3200cc @ 320psi = (800cc x 4 nozzles)

BEST for mixing 50% pump fuel and 50% Water/Methanol. SUPER FINE MIST


F - 4 Parallel Pumps = 6400cc @ 160psi = (1600cc x 4 nozzles)

BEST for operating engine @ 100% Water/Methanol injection


Calculating Fuel flow for 400Bhp @ 1.2 BSFC 100% Methanol = 1260cc/min x 4nozzles. Using 25/75 Water/Meth, one should compensate for water flow and Setup F configuration of 4 Parrallel Pumps would be needed.


Calculating Horsepower loss per WATT taking account pump is operating at 14Volts x 10Amps

1 Pump = 140Watt = 0.19Hp loss
2 Pump = 280Watt = 0.38Hp loss
3 Pump = 420Watt = 0.57Hp loss
4 Pump = 560Watt = 0.75Hp loss

Maximum of 1Hp loss @ 100% Meth fuel injection. Is it worth it ?

What is your point of view Richard ?
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Old 20-05-2016, 06:38 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

Are you trying to flow 1600cc/min of methanol per cylinder at 160psi?

Just use one large pump with a "return to tank" pressure regulator is best. This is because the pressure drop across the entire flow range in not linear.

You will experience starting problem in cold morning, much worse than ethanol due to high latent heat value of methanol.
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Old 20-05-2016, 05:16 PM
parmas parmas is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

1600cc what I calculated, It could be more or less but better be prepared for much than for less.

If you know one big pump ready for methanol able to use 150+psi pressure and flow 6400cc/min please share.

I will not have issues with starting cause I will work with pump fuel for starting/idle/cruising/low boost. At certain boost levels the base fuel will eventually be replaced by methanol injection.

Seems like the best possible setup a street car should actually have although I am ready for critics to say their way.
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Old 21-05-2016, 07:02 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

I don't know of any pump and can run at 160psi continuously.

They might be able to make you one:
http://www.micropump.com/product_overview.aspx
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Old 21-05-2016, 10:43 AM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

I would suggest you use a different architecture
Set of petrol fuel injectors at the OEM install location for petrol
2nd set of methanol compatible fuel injectors further up the intake runner or pre turbo fed by a methanol compatible fuel pump with a pressure regulater and return line into a small fuel cell, say 10l. Essentially a second fuel system. This way you get all the flow you want with the control you want. This has been done before and it works great.

Use your current water injection system to spray any water you need or want on top of that. As flow requeirements are now much reduced, use your current system as is. You may add 15% methanol to the water tank to keep it sterile.

There is no need to inject methanol and water at once as a mix. It has its merits, but I would not try to build a classic water injection system with membrane pumps to provide the entire fueling of a car. There are suitable and reliable pumps,fuel lines, connectors, fuel pressure regulators and injectors on the market for just that. Fuel injectors will also give you the precise metering capability out need for the same money as 4 water/meth valves and jets. They are plug and play to any ECU with 2nd injector bank capability such as the Emerald K3 I am using. Hondata will likely support this as well.

Besides methanol those pumps, injectors etc. would also be E85 compatible if you shall have the desire to try it. It is more stable than pure methanol and available at petrol stations. You could also run a mix of e85 and methanol. You gain flexibility.

Run petrol off boost and it automatically switches to e85/methanol, 100% ethanol etc. as you wish. Water comes on top of this from the system you already have. If you go that far, do it right.
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Old 21-05-2016, 02:21 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Flow vs Pressure

Couple of issues need to be addressed:

1. All wetted part has to be water resistance, if you are not running 100% methanol.
2. There are no high pressure fuel pump on the market that exceeds 100psi

Why not replace gasoline with methanol in the fuel tank, switch to a methanol map.
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