Flow vs Pressure

[parmas]

ANSWERS IN CAPS

Originally Posted by rotrex

I would suggest you use a different architecture
Set of petrol fuel injectors at the OEM install location for petrol
2nd set of methanol compatible fuel injectors further up the intake runner or pre turbo fed by a methanol compatible fuel pump with a pressure regulater and return line into a small fuel cell, say 10l. Essentially a second fuel system. This way you get all the flow you want with the control you want. This has been done before and it works great.

WHEN SPRAYING LOTS OF METH, SOME DISTANCE IS NEEDED TO LET EVAPORATION AND AIR MIXING TO HAPPEN EFFICIENTLY. STILL THINKING OF THE POSITIONS...

I THOUGHT OF A SYSTEM LIKE YOU DESCRIBED BUT THERE ARE TWO PROBLEMS.

1. COST

4 NOZZLES + 4 PUMPS + TANK IS LESS EXPENSIVE THAN 4 METHANOL INJECTORS + REGULATOR + METHANOL PUMP + TANK

2. CONTROL/EFFICIENCY

THE INTENTION IS TO USE A MAP ACTIVATED BY PWM DUTY RPM VS BOOST TO CONTROL FLOW. HALTECH SPORT 1000 ECU IS NOT CAPABLE TO CONTROL A 2ND INDEPENDENT SET OF INJECTORS.

Use your current water injection system to spray any water you need or want on top of that. As flow requeirements are now much reduced, use your current system as is. You may add 15% methanol to the water tank to keep it sterile.

THE REAL PROBLEM IS SINCE THE CAR IS STREET DRIVEN I NEED TO TAKE PRECAUTION FOR MIXTURES ABOVE 50/50. METHANOL AT SUMMER TEMPS IN THE TRUNK WILL BE DANGEROUS

There is no need to inject methanol and water at once as a mix. It has its merits, but I would not try to build a classic water injection system with membrane pumps to provide the entire fueling of a car. There are suitable and reliable pumps,fuel lines, connectors, fuel pressure regulators and injectors on the market for just that. Fuel injectors will also give you the precise metering capability out need for the same money as 4 water/meth valves and jets. They are plug and play to any ECU with 2nd injector bank capability such as the Emerald K3 I am using. Hondata will likely support this as well.

AS SAID ABOVE ... ADDING THAT METHANOL LIKES IT RICH. NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU INJECT THE BETTER IS ABOVE STOICH. NO NEED FOR PRECISE METERING.

Besides methanol those pumps, injectors etc. would also be E85 compatible if you shall have the desire to try it. It is more stable than pure methanol and available at petrol stations. You could also run a mix of e85 and methanol. You gain flexibility.

E85 IS NOT PRESENT IN OUR COUNTRY AT PETROL STATIONS. YOU NEED TO BUY DIRECTLY FROM RACING FUEL COMPANY JUST LIKE METHANOL. ALSO E85 OR ETHANOL IS MORE EXPENSIVE AND LESS POWERFUL THAN METHANOL. WHY WOULD I USE IT THEN?

THE ONLY DISADVANTAGE OF METHANOL IS FUEL CONSUMPTION.

Run petrol off boost and it automatically switches to e85/methanol, 100% ethanol etc. as you wish. Water comes on top of this from the system you already have. If you go that far, do it right.

YES THAT IS THE PLAN... I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY PRECAUTIONS

[parmas]

Originally Posted by Richard L

Couple of issues need to be addressed:

1. All wetted part has to be water resistance, if you are not running 100% methanol.

I THOUGHT 100% METH HAS MORE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES THAN MIXING WITH WATER? COULD YOU EXPLAIN THIS ISSUE?

2. There are no high pressure fuel pump on the market that exceeds 100psi

EXACTLY. ONE OF THE REASONS USING COMBINED PUMPS.

Why not replace gasoline with methanol in the fuel tank, switch to a methanol map.

I DO NOT RACE EVERYDAY OR EVERYTIME. IF I WENT FOR A SUNDAY DRIVE AND IT DECIDED TO TAKE IT EASY OFF BOOST, METHANOL WILL NOT BE USED.

ALSO THE STOCK FUEL TANK IS NOT PREPARED FOR METHANOL SO CORROSION MIGHT BE AN ISSUE OF INCREASING COSTS.

,,.......,......

[parmas]

Thinking back at the configuration of the injection setup :

Trial number 1 100% Water Mixture :

Would be using 4 pumps : two in series and two in parallel.

From experience and studies when injecting water the primary aspect is droplet size. Droplet size works in direct relation to pressure. The more pressure used, the less the droplet size is. Working 2pumps in series would achieve a pressure of 320-400Psi .

Nozzle size is still unknown although positioning two nozzles one pre-turbo and one post turbo could be enough.

Direct port would be ideal for non-balanced plenums as not all cylinders could benefit equally from the setup. The problem is that water would not have enough time to evaporate if "large" nozzles are used.

Combination of direct and post/pre turbo total of Six nozzle would be the best viable option for best distribution and cooling.

[rotrex]

Fuel injectors, also ones for methanol, only need 45PSI. So any alcohol compatible fuel pump should do.
If you use a methanol compatible fuel cell, e.g. Small steel tank, there is no issue with having it in the car. The tank is vented as any other fuel tank.

The boiling point of methanol is not that low. Folks use plastic canisters of methanol to run fuel cells in their camper vans. They typically are used in hot areas.

[rotrex]

Check flow rates of air assisted foggers. Some have rather high flow rates.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by rotrex

Fuel injectors, also ones for methanol, only need 45PSI. So any alcohol compatible fuel pump should do.
If you use a methanol compatible fuel cell, e.g. Small steel tank, there is no issue with having it in the car. The tank is vented as any other fuel tank.

The boiling point of methanol is not that low. Folks use plastic canisters of methanol to run fuel cells in their camper vans. They typically are used in hot areas.

This is a billet methanol fuel injector :

https://www.moranmotorsports.com/pro...mizer-injector

Cost : $188 x 4 = $752 = £518

Aquamist Jets = £35 x 4 = £140

And that is only injectors.... A high flow methanol pump like Aeromotive costs more than 6 pumps altogether apart fuel regulator and engine management....

Fuel tanks: I always so plastic tanks in methanol setups and in a way I like it. Steel tend to heat the liquid more plus could be prone to corrosion plus it is more expensive and "heavier" aswell.

To be exact methanol's boiling point is 64.7DegC. Let the car sit for a few hours in the sun on a summer day. I am sure you will see 60+DegC in it (tried and tested). Liquid inside would be less though.... just taking pre-cautions...

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by parmas

,,. All wetted part has to be water resistance, if you are not running 100% methanol.

I THOUGHT 100% METH HAS MORE SEVERE CONSEQUENCES THAN MIXING WITH WATER? COULD YOU EXPLAIN THIS ISSUE?

- Water causes sever corrosion on iron alloy than methanol. Fuel injectors will seize.

- There is also issue regarding using an intermittent pump for continuous duty.

- 300-400psi line pressure will impede the operation of and inline valve.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by Richard L

- Water causes sever corrosion on iron alloy than methanol. Fuel injectors will seize.

What mixtures/flow% do you recommend then?

- There is also issue regarding using an intermittent pump for continuous duty.

The pump will not be used continuous but on demand according rpm and boost. Check ecu table attached. Also check attached screenshot directly from Aquatec. The pumps could be used to run continously for hours

- 300-400psi line pressure will impede the operation of and inline valve.

You mean the check valve ? If the cracking pressure is 15psi, the valve still needs 15psi before opening. The only possible issue is if the valve withstand the 300-400psi range

..........

[rotrex]

The injection control valve will only work to some max. Pressure. Check the data sheet of the valve you use.
Doubling pressure only gains you some 40% more flow. Pipe fittings become challenging at such high pressure.
The pump case might not sustain 450PSI vs. the outside and leak or crack.
The serial arrangement is not necessary. Just use them in parallel and get the jets yOu need for the flow you need. you can always just add more.

My system is based on the old AM 2c system. I have now replaced the race pump with a Flotec pump. Otherwise it stil works the same. 150 PSI rail pressure buffered by a accumulator. The mix is metered by a HSV PWM control valve. I think AM now seems a FAV (fast acting valve). My flow indication is the pump running indicated by a LED: if it blinks or illuminates, the mix is flowing. The faster it blinks, the more I flow.

There is no reason to build something like this, just with 4 pumps and the according number of jets. Likely a single FAV will flow enough.

Fuel injectors are ethanol and fuel compatible these days. MEthnaol compatible injectros are likely identical except someone did the effort to test compatibility.
Common to all fuel injectors is that they cannot tolerate water similar to fuel pumps with ther fuel cooled rotors. They corrode from the water.
You need special metering valves that are designed to be compatible with with water. They are not common. Aquamist is one of the few (actually the only one) selling those.
I have a HSV under ECU control and it is one fine piece of valve. Current modulation frequency is set to 80Hz.

Pure methanol corrodes aluminium if exposed over prolonged periods of time in a container, especially if contaminated by acids or bases breaking down the passivity on layer of aluminium. Water reduces this effect. That is why storing 50:50 mixes causes no issues.

Are you sure your race fuel shop cannot provide race spec e85? It would make your life much easier as you could use mostly common fuel pumps and injectors for a secondary injection system.
Then again, add water as necessary with your current WMI system.

[Richard L]

Originally Posted by parmas

..........

- You should not have any trace of water in the methanol. Even absorb from the water vapour from the air over time. Leave the fuel injector

- High pressure demands high current. Hight current means heat rise. The Aquatec specification is quite vague, " ... some pump can run for hours .... "

- I cannot see a valve that will work at 450psi at 1600cc/min. Certain not from us.