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  #1  
Old 18-02-2006, 09:47 PM
tawnybill tawnybill is offline
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Default Post Combustion injection of water

Hi to all.

Does anybody know of other work/research being done on this subject?

I have worked on this concept since 1981 and have never encounterd any one else on the same wave length and understanding of the diffrence to water entrainment in the fuel/air mixture.

I have constructed a prototype of the injector (very simple design). and tested it with astounding results!

Mail me back to chat further on this. my address is tawnybill@yahoo.ca

Cheers,
Willy.
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  #2  
Old 19-02-2006, 07:34 PM
JohnA JohnA is offline
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So you inject water in the exhaust?
Why?
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  #3  
Old 20-02-2006, 08:19 PM
tawnybill tawnybill is offline
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Into the exhaust? Where is that from? or did I not explain the concept sucinctly enough?

No it isn't injected into the exhaust per say..... the object is to inject water into the partialy completed combustion gases to help in completeing their combustion WHILE STILL IN THE CYLINDER...

Check out "The Science" (The document that I copied from the TurboICE website at; ) http://www.waterinjection.info/

and : http://not2fast.wryday.com/thermo/wa..._chemistry.txt

(As quoted from http://not2fast.wryday.com/thermo/wa..._chemistry.txt)


From: Robert Harris <bob@bobthecomputerguy.com>
To: DIY_EFI@lists.diy-efi.org
Subject: Water and its effect on combustion.
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 10:24:08 -0700
Message-ID: <9ptjms0uu4oe292mpk6a6vhm2hn8bu9h1j@4ax. com>

Let us take a quick look at ignition. Those who have a Heywood can look it up
- mines on loan so going by memory. The first thing that happens is a plasma
cloud is formed by the arc consisting of super heated electron stripped atoms.
When this cloud "explodes" a ball of high energy particles is shot outward.

The highest energy particles are the hydrogen atoms - and they penetrate the
charge about 5 times as far as the rest of the particles. As they lose energy
and return to normal temps - about 5000 k - they begin to react chemically
with any surrounding fuel and oxygen particles. The effectiveness of spark
ignition is directly related to the availability of free hydrogen. Molecules
containing tightly bound hydrogen such as methanol, nitromethane, and methane
are far more difficult to ignite than those with less bonds.

During combustion - water - H2O ( present and formed ) is extremely active in
the oxidation of the hydrocarbon. The predominate reaction is the following:

OH + H ==> H2O
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
Loop to top and repeat.

The OH radical is the most effective at stripping hydrogen from the HC
molecule in most ranges of combustion temperature.

Another predominate process is the HOO radical. It is more active at lower
temperatures and is competitive with the H2O2 at higher temps.

OO + H ==> HOO
HOO + H ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH

This mechanism is very active at both stripping hydrogen from the HC and for
getting O2 into usable combustion reactions.

Next consider the combustion of CO. Virtually no C ==> CO2. Its a two step
process. C+O ==> CO. CO virtually drops out of early mid combustion as the O
H reactions are significantly faster and effectively compete for the available
oxygen.

Then consider that pure CO and pure O2 burns very slowly if at all. Virtually
the only mechanism to complete the oxidization ( Glassman - Combustion Third
Edition ) of CO ==> CO2 is the "water method".

CO + OH ==> CO2 + H
H + OH ==> H20
H2O + O ==> H2O2
H2O2 ==> OH + OH
goto to top and repeat.

This simple reaction accounts for 99% + of the conversion of CO to CO2. It is
important in that fully two thirds of the energy of carbon combustion is
released in the CO ==> CO2 process and that this process occurs slow and late
in the combustion of the fuel. Excess water can and does speed this
conversion - by actively entering into the conversion process thru the above
mechanism.

The peak flame temperature is determined by three factors alone - the energy
present and released, the total atomic mass, and the atomic ratio - commonly
called CHON for Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, and Nitrogen. The chemical
reactions in combustion leading to peak temperature are supremely indifferent
to pressure. The temperatures and rates of normal IC combustion are
sufficient to cause most of the fuel and water present to be dissociated and
enter into the flame.

As can be seen above, water is most definitily not only not inert but is a
very active and important player in the combustion of hydrocarbon fuel.
Ricardo and others have documented that under certain conditions ( normally
supercharged ) water can replace fuel up to about 50% and develop the same
power output, or that the power output can be increased by up to 50% addition
of water. This conditions were investigated by NACA and others for piston
aircraft engines. It is important to note that these improvements came at the
upper end of the power range where sufficient fuel and air was available to
have an excess of energy that could not be converted to usable pressure in a
timely manner.

As a side note - Volvo recently released some SAE papers documenting the use
of cooled EGR to both reduce detonation and return to a stoic mixture under
boost in the 15 psi range - while maintaining approximately the same power
output. Notice - they reduced fuel and still get the same power output.

When you consider that EGR consists primarily of nitrogen, CO2, and water ( to
the tune of about two gallons formed from each gallon of water burned ), you
might draw the conclusion that it also was not "inert". They peaked their
tests at about 18% cooled EGR - which would work out to about 36% water
injection and got about the same results under similar conditions that the
early NACA research got.



I hope this explains it better, Strange as it may seem this is combustion chemistry that explains why my tests left me with the conclusion that the water had somehow become volatile

Cheers,
Willy
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  #4  
Old 20-02-2006, 08:29 PM
tawnybill tawnybill is offline
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The refrence in my previous post to "The Science" is on this page

http://tawnybill.tripod.com/a2zeffic...ashed/id7.html

on my website at;

http://tawnybill.tripod.com/a2zeffic...hed/index.html

Cheers,
Willy.
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  #5  
Old 20-02-2006, 09:14 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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I have read something about this and it is effective - On of the SAE papers.

The water has to be dissociated into free radials before the marriage of the combustion process. Presence of a catalysis will accelerate the process. A small amount of peroxide will also help as the OH-OH bond is weaker than OH-H.

I stop short of looking into this further due to two reasons:
1) Requires pressure similar to diesel injectors systems - difficult to use a diesel system without causing internal corrosion.
2) H2O2 is not easy to handle.

It is possible to use water only but requires high pressure for good atomisation, droplet size will be the the region of 1-2 microns?

Please do tell us how one can implimenting this concept without massive investment. If you can heat water up you about 300C, you will get some 200 bar of water pressure to work with. The only valve I know to hold thios pressure cheaply is the diesel setup.

Richard
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  #6  
Old 20-02-2006, 10:08 PM
tawnybill tawnybill is offline
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:? This a retrofit system, namely something you can adapt to your old Gas/Fuel hog to clean up its' (pig s**t) ops: dirty emmisions and designed to retrofit of current vehicals. Although it could be intigrated by OEMs' manufacturing on new production.

This will help us deal with the status-quo (dirty IC emmisions) giving us time to develop a better energy source.

The instalation/conversion costs would soon be recouvered in fuel savings.

Bottom line, we wouldn't need to wait for a new production line, remembering that people will continue useing their current vehicals until they are worn out and replaced through normal attrition. (fiscal responsability, not environmental responsability still dictates, that is why we don't all own hybrids already...Make sense?)

Cheers
Wil'
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  #7  
Old 20-02-2006, 10:37 PM
JohnA JohnA is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tawnybill
..No it isn't injected into the exhaust per say..... the object is to inject water into the partialy completed combustion gases to help in completeing their combustion WHILE STILL IN THE CYLINDER.....
Ah, gotcha now. :wink:
As Richard said, just like Direct Injection systems, the pressures involved would have to be much higher (as the combustion chamber pressures are far higher than those at the intake plenum)
Have you got any ideas as to how a retrofit system can be set up?
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  #8  
Old 20-02-2006, 11:24 PM
tawnybill tawnybill is offline
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I have designed/machined/constructed a prototype injector that is adjustable from "0" water delivery to "Optimum and beyond" to achieve any delivery amount.
It delivers into the combustion pressure, and shuts down immediately when the heat reqired to evaporate (turn into steam) the water is not available. It allows the cylinder to "breath" for the (1) fouled ignition rev, then delivers again as soon as the heat is there to evaporate the charge. If it still does not fire it just "breaths" for that rev again.

It is literaly "fail safe" and it had to be since the delivery of that amount (@10:1 to fuel) of water into a dead cylinder would blow the head off in a matter of only a few revs (milliseconds @ high rpm) long before the motor coasts to a stop. Unique eh? (oh-oh that gave me away as a Canadian Eh? ops: )

It (this system) is not on the "Aftermarket shelf" in the local candy store yet....or you could get it there. Believe me it needs to be on that shelf already......

Oh by the way "The boy George" (G.W.Bush) is touting his new found religion of "Reduceing Oil Dependence" lol :?: :idea: :!:

Just how he expects to do it isn't explained though......

Cheers,
Wil'
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  #9  
Old 20-02-2006, 11:33 PM
JohnA JohnA is offline
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10:1 to fuel?
Do you mean that you inject ten times as much water as fuel? By weight?

So if a cylinder has a fuel injector squirting 100cc/min, you also inject water at a rate of 1000cc/min?

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick here?
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  #10  
Old 20-02-2006, 11:52 PM
tawnybill tawnybill is offline
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You've got it !

This is derived from ,
1 btu = raising 1 pound of water 1 degree F + the latent heat of evaporation of 960btu = (or about) 1140btu/pound from water to steam (180 btu+960 btu = 1140) and with about 140,000 btu/gallon of fuel available, it could evaporate (140,000 divided by 1140= 122.8 lbs of water or) more than 10 gallons of water to steam.

Allowing for heat losses and the effect of the cylinder pressure on the charge of steam, it results in a superheated volume of relatively dry steam. (this will help in clearing all of the steam out on the opening of the exhaust valve and drying out the cylinder) simple eh? :?

Wil'
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