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  #21  
Old 20-09-2007, 02:17 PM
maxc maxc is offline
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http://img468.imageshack.us/img468/1...stemdu7.th.jpg

This can make a icse simple and possible.

Here's a link. http://www.phoenixnavigation.com/ptb...les/ptbc18.htm

These devices work better than what they say. I should know I built one. :wink:
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  #22  
Old 12-02-2013, 12:15 AM
maxc maxc is offline
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
I have read something about this and it is effective - On of the SAE papers.

The water has to be dissociated into free radials before the marriage of the combustion process. Presence of a catalysis will accelerate the process. A small amount of peroxide will also help as the OH-OH bond is weaker than OH-H.

I stop short of looking into this further due to two reasons:
1) Requires pressure similar to diesel injectors systems - difficult to use a diesel system without causing internal corrosion.
2) H2O2 is not easy to handle.

It is possible to use water only but requires high pressure for good atomisation, droplet size will be the the region of 1-2 microns?

Please do tell us how one can implimenting this concept without massive investment. If you can heat water up you about 300C, you will get some 200 bar of water pressure to work with. The only valve I know to hold thios pressure cheaply is the diesel setup.

Richard
Low pressure port injected steam can weaken the bonds. Catalysis can be in the combustion chamber.
Sorry old thread where's Willy?
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  #23  
Old 13-02-2013, 01:13 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

Are are trying to split water molecules and use it as a fuel?

Are we talking about the HH-O bonds or the Van de vaal bonds?
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  #24  
Old 16-02-2013, 11:36 PM
maxc maxc is offline
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

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Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
Are are trying to split water molecules and use it as a fuel?

Are we talking about the HH-O bonds or the Van de vaal bonds?
In the 1977 mechanix illustrated magazine. The university of arizona built a hydrogen asisted car. They used waste heat. It got an estimated 50% in increase in fuel economy. Prototype was on vw engine. Then installed on pinto car. (don't know if pinto engine) Steam is used with Nickel catalyst pellets. Can't find it on google books. I have the magazine artical. You have to remember there is a factional production of hydrogen.
My steam system is simple. Much more later. Maybe a informative vid.

Last edited by maxc; 16-02-2013 at 11:40 PM. Reason: added words
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  #25  
Old 16-02-2013, 11:51 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

Do you know the actual process to split/reverse an exothermic bond?
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  #26  
Old 17-02-2013, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

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Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
Do you know the actual process to split/reverse an exothermic bond?
Yes. But the whole point is that steam injected in an engine will expand higher than if it wasn't in the first place. Steam will go into a superheated (I call it)"mass state" Water already in the air is at the same temp as the air. It won't. Water injection pulls too much heat back too the "water" killing the flame front and increasing ignition delay.
I injected about 1% steam too fuel mass. Remember it only has fraction of a second cool it won't "all" cool. It helps vaporize fuel. It will help keep peak fuel flame temps.
It don't have too turn too hydrogen to make more power.
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  #27  
Old 17-02-2013, 02:05 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

OK, it is a thermodynamic topic. Change of Enthalpy within the closed system (combustion chamber). There are no magic in this.

Enthalpy is a measure of the total energy of a thermodynamic system. It includes the internal energy, which is the energy required to create a system, and the amount of energy required to make room for it by displacing its environment and establishing its volume and pressure.

It is not a free energy, you need extra heat to create extra expansion work.

Engine can only produce 30% mechanical work. The other energy is released via the exhaust, cooling system and radiated.

You can recover a large portion of heat energy with the following methods:

1. A turbocharger to increase the effective compression ratio.
2. Water injection/Steam injection into the combustion chamber to absorb any excessive heat that may damage the engine.
3. Stop water circulation to the radiator.
4. Insulate the entire engine so heat is retained internally.

In fact it is better to introduce water droplets at a lower state of enthalpy, allow it to absorb more heat from the combustion process. This is not as simple as it seems. If you are injecting steam or water droplet into an unstressed engine, you will probably loose power. For this to work, the engine has to be in great stress, ie high compression ratio (effective compression), high EGT, ignition timing approaching MBT. Only then, you will see good mechanical gain with water injection . Resulting in better MPG.

THIS IS "NOT" NEW. Do some research on the SAE papers. I remembered reading a project done on a heavy duty diesel engine installed in a bus. It was done almost thirty years ago in Japan, result was very positive but it did not catch on at all. This topic has been studied many time over the years.
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  #28  
Old 17-02-2013, 03:18 AM
maxc maxc is offline
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
OK, it is a thermodynamic topic. Change of Enthalpy within the closed system (combustion chamber). There are no magic in this.

Enthalpy is a measure of the total energy of a thermodynamic system. It includes the internal energy, which is the energy required to create a system, and the amount of energy required to make room for it by displacing its environment and establishing its volume and pressure.

It is not a free energy, you need extra heat to create extra expansion work.

Engine can only produce 30% mechanical work. The other energy is released via the exhaust, cooling system and radiated.

You can recover a large portion of heat energy with the following methods:

1. A turbocharger to increase the effective compression ratio.
2. Water injection/Steam injection into the combustion chamber to absorb any excessive heat that may damage the engine.
3. Stop water circulation to the radiator.
4. Insulate the entire engine so heat is retained internally.

In fact it is better to introduce water droplets at a lower state of enthalpy, allow it to absorb more heat from the combustion process. This is not as simple as it seems. If you are injecting steam or water droplet into an unstressed engine, you will probably loose power. For this to work, the engine has to be in great stress, ie high compression ratio (effective compression), high EGT, ignition timing approaching MBT. Only then, you will see good mechanical gain with water injection . Resulting in better MPG.

THIS IS "NOT" NEW. Do some research on the SAE papers. I remembered reading a project done on a heavy duty diesel engine installed in a bus. It was done almost thirty years ago in Japan, result was very positive but it did not catch on at all. This topic has been studied many time over the years.
there are over 10000 patants on steam injection oil company's dont like it. as you would say red tape.

Last edited by maxc; 17-02-2013 at 03:20 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #29  
Old 17-02-2013, 10:54 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

The oil company cannot stop anyone to offer such product. I think most people just want everything served on a plate.

If we were to prepared to invest and offer a proper system for this market, people will complain on the cost. When the idea takes off, copy cat systems with less capability will appear within a few months for half the price and the R&D and market already created.

Like everything else it is a business decision. Apple's ipad is a fine example. There are too many predatory investors. We were quite lucky insofar that the water injection concept were brought to the market place unchallenged for ten years. In 2003, Snow was the first company that jumped on the band wagon, offering a budget pump speed system. Needless to say, Aquamist have paved the way for them. You know the rest.

The water and steam injection for fuel efficiency concept is sound, but it is unlikely we offer such system anytime soon learning from past experiences. People who warmed to this concept will be the same people that counts every penny, they will always buy the cheapest system alluded to hypes and slick marketing tactics. We have seem it all.
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  #30  
Old 17-02-2013, 06:14 PM
maxc maxc is offline
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Default Re: Post Combustion injection of water

to say,
Quote:
Aquamist have paved the way for them. You know the rest.

The water and steam injection for fuel efficiency concept is sound, but it is unlikely we offer such system anytime soon learning from past experiences. People who warmed to this concept will be the same people that counts every penny, they will always buy the cheapest system alluded to hypes and slick marketing tactics. We have seem it all.

Can you say that you went about your steam injection with the same flow rates as water injection? Or you never did steam injection as in port steam not DI steam?

Last edited by maxc; 17-02-2013 at 06:14 PM. Reason: quote problem
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