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  #1  
Old 28-02-2005, 10:54 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default WI seen through "Sight Glass" On Plenum

If any one is interested in how water behaves inside a pleum, these videos will give you some idea:

Download Here Medium res: 667k (WMV)

Download Here High Res: 1.4M (WMV)

Download Here MPG:3.6MB

View Here


Message that came with the video:

Hi Rich,

Here is a vid of a 1s system being used on a 2Lt Cosworth engine running 2 Bar boost. The custom made intake manifold has a ?sight glass? on the end so the water can be viewed during dyno runs.

Jake
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Old 01-03-2005, 03:21 AM
PuntoRex PuntoRex is offline
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Awesome !!
Thanks for sharing.

That's much more water than I'd imagined.
What is the jet size he's using?
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  #3  
Old 01-03-2005, 09:53 AM
janis janis is offline
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I don't really understand what part of the intake I'm looking at, but you can see drops of water on the glas.
If that is what happens always than I understand why pre-turbo injection isn't a good idea.

As soon as the watermist hits a surface, the fine drops regroup into bigger drops. Is that what could be happening in the case of the broken turbo were pre-turbo WI was used??
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Old 02-03-2005, 01:24 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Jake will be on site to answer your questions, I think he has signed in.

Just post the question to Jake here.
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Old 02-03-2005, 07:25 AM
PuntoRex PuntoRex is offline
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I guess the window is on one end of the intake manifold collector (is this the right term? ).

So it's sort of not in the "air flow path", thus some droplets were slowing down here & gathering. Along the high speed air flow under high boost, I believe nothing would stay.
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  #6  
Old 02-03-2005, 10:25 AM
Race Map Race Map is offline
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Hello,
Thanks for the interest in the video. The intake manifold has a center entery in the middle of the plenum. Richard has some pics that he can post as i dont know how to post the pics. The "elbow" leading into the centre of the plenum has 3 dividers in it that were tested on the flow bench to give even air flow to all Cyl. Yes the "sight glass" is on the end of the plenum.

The WI point is approx 250mm before the throttle body so what you see in the plenum is AFTER the water has travelled approx 350mm and then done a 90 Deg turn up threw the elbow before it hits the sight glass that is on the end of the plenum. Also i was using straight water only.

The WI is turned on at 12psi and 3500rpm. BOTH these points need to be met for the WI to become active. The WI is turned on via an AUTRONIC ecu that runs the engine. The WI was mainly used to prevent high intake air temps at 2 bar boost. The dyno runs last approx 10 seconds and start at 2000rpm to 7200rpm. ALL the power runs were data logged in the ecu.

First up we did a number of runs to stablise the engine temps (air,coolant,oil) WITHOUT the WI active. The air temp in the dyno room was 26Deg C. The air temp in the plenum at the start of the runs once stabilised was 32.6C and at the end of the run was 45.1C WITHOUT WI.

With the WI active the run would start with an air temp of 32.2 and end with 37.8C. ALL these figure are on the same day, same car and the same place. The AUTRONIC ecu data logs at 20 times per second.

At full noise the engine runs 80psi fuel pressure and the injectors flow 1,060cc at this pressure. I am using a 0.4mm jet. I know that the jet size is small for the injector size as our intention was to use the WI purely to prevent high air temps at such high boost.

Once the WI was active there was NO difference in the A/F ratios but bear in mind the small jet size. In my opinion i was very impressed by the WI. I have admittedlly been a sceptic about WI but now i recommend it to all my customers that run hi boost turbo engines.

Richard, Could you please post the pics of the Intake manifold so it will be more clear to all that are interested to see what path the water had to travel and yes, i also thought there was quiet alot of water for such a small jet but have never had any problems with the engine due to the WI.

Jake
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Old 02-03-2005, 12:06 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Thanks for posting the replies.

I have the following pictures re-size to show your inlet manifold and engine bay.








I will post some more later as well as the latest video you sent.
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Old 02-03-2005, 02:50 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Mere is Jake's second dyno run (1.80MB):

Download Here
View Here

More pictures of the inlet manifold after editing. Jake will explain the effect of the extended induction pipes.
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Old 03-03-2005, 08:19 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Hereare some more very interesting pictures -The length of the induction pipe has transformed the power output, I will let Racemap tell you the power difference...





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Old 04-03-2005, 02:34 PM
Race Map Race Map is offline
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Richard,

I was hoping this wasn't going to turn into an "Intake Manifold Design" thread, however here is a bit of info for those that have an interest in this subject.

Firstly, i can not accept credit for the fabrication of the Intake manifold. It was designed and fabricated by a good friends of mine Jim, he fabricates most types of Int/Exh manifolds from his company MENTAL PERFORMANCE FABRICATIONS located in Sydney Australia. Jim is also responsible for fabricating my Exh manifold too and as you can see in the video it copes well in extream conditions.

I take full credit for the programming of the ECU as this is what i do. As can be seen in the pics, the new Intake has over double the runner lenght of the standard Cosworth item. Not only does this increase air speed it also has the added benefit of having a larger volume within the runner. What must be remembered is air DOES have mass and trying to fill the Cyl as much as possible in the small time frame the Intake valve(s) are open is one of the many keys to making gains in Hp/Torq.

Having dynoed 100's of cars over the years i have learnt plenty from OTHER peoples mistakes. Over the years i have made up my own simple theory. If you make a mod to the engine and it make more power, then you have simply filled the Cyl's better. I am of course refering this to mechanical changes let alone programming changes (A/F mix, Ign advance etc)

What also MUST be remembered is that a Dyno SHEET only shows FULL THROTTLE gains as most dyno runs are at 100% Throttle openings.

Now to the manifold. Note; the following is at 100% throttle. A back to back test (SAME boost, fuel, dyno etc) shows that below 3700rpm there was NO gain in power nor torque. I put this simply down to the fact that below this rpm there is adequate time to fill the Cyl's, infact i am certain there is reversion below this rpm. Reversion is when the Cyl's completely filled and the piston is still on its up stroke with the Int valve still open. This only occures at low rpm as at high rpm the air mass cannot keep up with the piston speed and therefore not fill the Cyl's completly and this is one of the reasons to why the torque drops of in the higher rpm range.

Above 3700 rpm there were excellent gains in both Hp and Torq. Even at 7000rpm there was still a 10 Hp gain (Flywheel) indicating that the longer runners did not "Nose over" as we thought might have happened.

Now regarding small throttle openings. This is what the dyno sheet cannot show you. There was a MASSIVE difference in throttle responce during transition throttle and small throttle openings. Again i will come back to my simple theory, if the engine make more Hp/Torq you are better filling the Cyl's. As an example, if we are at 10% throttle, you are in fact "Throttling" the engine so therefor your not completly filling the Cyl's.

What is happening with the new Intake manifold is that with the same throttle openings there is better Cyl filling due to the longer runners therefor more Hp/torq generated at the same throttle % compared to the standard manifold and thus giving a much sharper throttle respone.

This was also proven whilst retuning the engine with the new intake manifold while the load/rpm points were held static for optimum MBT tuning.

Also this is backed up in an unusual manner by the factory idle control solenoid. As you can see in the pics, the solenoid is attached to the throttle body and was not affected in any way by the install of the new intake manifold. The solenoids "settings" were NOT touched in the ecu software.

What we found after fitting the manifold was, the Idle contol solenoid struggled to maintain a steady idle. It would idle between 1200-1300 rpm. Obviously the new intake manifold had made the solenoid MUCH more sensitive to the air it would bypass. The cure was to fit a 4mm "restrictor" within the solenoid and the throttle body and this gave us the stable idle (880rpm) we had prior to the new intake manifold being fitted.

In my opinion the gained rpm over the original 880rpm setting comes from the gained responce of the engine to any form air flow to the manifold. The other noted aspect was the engine is also alot more difficult to "stall" due to the lack of throttle while engagining the clutch while taking off. The IDLE ign timing/fuel delivery setting were not changed in any way nor was the throttle body "butterfly" position and there were NO manifold leaks to say that this was the reason for the gained rpm at idle.

I also want to make it clear i am in no way trying to "send work" Jims way. I spoke to Jim prior to this post asking if he was interested in having a contact number or email address posted and his reply was "I'm booked out for the next 6 Months".

I am passing on this info as per Richards request and i originaly sent the "sight galss" video to Richard as i knew it would have been of interest to him, i did not have any other intention other than that. The pics Richard has posted were sent to him at his request. I do understand that there are guys out there interested and this is why i asked Richard to post the pics so you guys can have a better understanding of what you were looking at in the video.

I hope this thread was of some assistance to those interested cos it took me bloody ages to type out ops:

Jake
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