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  #31  
Old 06-05-2016, 07:41 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Nozzle spray angle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by parmas View Post
Forget the charge cooler... You definitely not needing it till 20psi
Excellent Then I shall proceed as planned. I have decided to install three
injection points, all in bends and arranged to spray axial to the following tube.
One will be in the bend before the charger, one in the first bend after the
charger, and one in the last bend before the engine inlet manifold. This will
give the choice of 1, 2 or 3 nozzles spraying simultaneously.

I will also drill, tap and plug the inlet runners (straight up) to allow for the
installation of port injection when it becomes necessary. I have selected one
each of standard nozzles 0.70, 0.50 and 0.40B to begin, and will order more
once initial tuning with water is under way. I think water only should be
sufficient to reach 10psi ? If not, I will change to 25-35% methanol mix.

Once again thanks to you and rotrex for your guidance

Cheers... jondee86
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  #32  
Old 06-05-2016, 11:59 AM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

If you have a wideband Lambda Sensor and a programmable ECU, I'd start with a 50:50 mix right away. It requires less changes to ignition timing and works over a wider range of AFRs.
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  #33  
Old 07-05-2016, 01:12 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Arrow Re: Nozzle spray angle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotrex View Post
If you have a wideband Lambda Sensor and a programmable ECU, I'd start
with a 50:50 mix right away. It requires less changes to ignition timing and
works over a wider range of AFRs.
Yes, I have an LC-1 wideband in the car and it will be hooked up to the new
ECU to allow the auto-tune function to work on the fuel map. While I haven't
spent much time considering how to go about tuning the map above 100kPa
I do recall reading that 50/50 v/v was the easy way to mix methanol and
distilled water (deionised not readily available here).

I also recall that tuning with a 50/50 mix comes close to allowing the engine
to run a gasoline only ignition map ? Hopefully, that means I can use timing
from turbo (no WI) ignition maps as a a guide for my initial setup ?

One thing I have been wondering about, is how the WBO2 handles the mix
of methanol and gasoline ? Stoich for meth is 6.4 vs 14.7 for gasoline. So if
the target AFR in boost is 12.5 at a certain load, does the ECU just "ignore"
the presence of water and meth, and simply adjust the gasoline injection
to achieve the target AFR ? Sure makes life easy if it does

Cheers... jondee86
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  #34  
Old 07-05-2016, 08:31 AM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

LC-1 is a terrible system. I had two failing in short order. Got a STACK WBO sensor and no more issues ever since.

Start with a turbo map is OK, but retard the ignition before you start in the positive boost "area" even with water methanol.

Forget about AFR for different fuels. The engine likes to run with a certain residual oxygen level in the exhaust gases. This is the same for all fuels. This residual oxygen is converted to a lambda value which is 1.000 for a stoich mix. Then you can convert this lambda to AFR values for different fuels. If you use a AFR signal for feedback to the ECU, just stick the petrol values, I.e. 14.7:1 stoich. Many engines with WI run well between an (petrol indicated) AFR of 11.8 to 12.5. If you go any richter, performance drops a lot. Depending on boost levels, heat, amount of ADI injection etc, they run well even leaner, but things get hotter and knock sensitivity increases. As you do not opt for any charge cooling, I'd stay on the 12-12.5:1 AFR side of things. If you use pure methanol as the sole fuel, you need twice as much compared to petrol, but at best power, your AFR gauge set to petrol will still show some 12:1. So just ignore them. Fuel specific AFRs become important if you gauge your AFR from the fuel flow values. As we have a convenient sensor for this, you do not need to know your actual fuel flow. The ECU also shows it to you as a percent injector duty cycle.

To get around all this better work with lambda values. Second best, just stick to petrol AFRs to judge where you are.
If you add methanol and (petrol indicated) AFR turns richer by 1.5, just reduce fuel until you are back :-)

Last edited by rotrex; 07-05-2016 at 08:37 AM.
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  #35  
Old 07-05-2016, 09:11 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Wink Re: Nozzle spray angle...

Some people like the LC-1 and some people have problems with it. Mine has
been working fine for five years, but I have to admit the car does not get
used a lot. STACK instruments are nice, but they are $$$$$.

I work with AFR instead of Lambda, but the ECU can display either one. At
the moment I am waiting to order a new ECU as the manufacturer is about
ready to release a new model that will have a lot of new features... some
of which will be useful I will wait until the end of the month, if the new
model is nor released I will buy one of the older model. It will be good enough
run the supercharged engine and I am already familiar with the software.

Cheers... jondee86
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  #36  
Old 07-05-2016, 01:34 PM
parmas parmas is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

AFR gauges work with voltages. According to the Pre-Set program and voltage the gauge puts a reading.

Example:

Program 1 : Gasoline, 1.25Volts = 12.5AFR

Program 2 : Methanol, 1.25Volts = 5.52AFR

Let's say we use 100% gasoline OFF boost while shifting to 100% methanol ON boost. If program 1 is selected and the engine is tuned to run 5.52AFR on methanol, the gauge should represent a reading of 12.5AFR.

Methanol likes rich mixtures so if using 100% methanol ON boost the lower the AFR value the better power output. Actually seeing 10AFR using program 1 and 100% methanol is considered safe and powerful.

The only drawback is fuel consumption.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg METHANOL LAMBDA.jpg (75.1 KB, 3 views)
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  #37  
Old 15-05-2016, 02:58 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Question Re: Nozzle spray angle...

A bit off topic, but I will ask here rather than start a new thread.

I would like to locate an air temp sensor in the intake manifold so that the
ECU can read the temp of air entering the engine. The readily available GM
Delphi open "fast response" sensors seem to be popular for this application.
They are rated for 200kPa and up to 130degC.



What sort of effect does water-meth spray have on the thermistor ?

The GM sensor has a screw-in metal body, but I will be running a 3mm PTFE
thermal insulator gasket on the intake manifold, so manifold heat soak should
not be a significant problem.

Cheers... jondee86
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  #38  
Old 15-05-2016, 03:31 PM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

The mix makes no issues except that you might (I got) get erratic readings and low temp spikes as methanol dribbles evaporate on the sensor bulb.
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  #39  
Old 15-05-2016, 11:08 PM
parmas parmas is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

I have one similar off Haltech. Injected many times few inches in front for years.

Never had issues apart from what rotrex said especially when throttle closed after WOT run
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  #40  
Old 16-05-2016, 08:04 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Nozzle spray angle...

OK, I'll grab one then. I actually have the original enclosed type sensor
from the 4AGZE (supercharged) manifold. However, I have been told that
the enclosed type of sensor does not react fast enough for non-intercooled
applications. I hope to be able to use the open type sensor reading to trip
an alarm (via the ECU) if the supercharger discharge temperature goes too
high, so fast is better

Cheers... jondee86
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