RICESP Water Injected RX7

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by GySgtFrank

Good info. This has been my experience with header wraps as well. Headers rust away fast enough on their own if uncoated. Wrap them and they last maybe a quarter of the uncoated header lifespan. It's interesting that the same type of degradation can be seen with turbo bags. I would have thought the cast iron would have stood up to heat soaking better than that. Guess not, thanks for the heads up.

No worries, I always wanted to prove that TURBO BAGS are fucking shit, and as you can see they 100% are

I suppose like I said in my first post if you are a show pony or drug racer or generally some fagot who does not actually use the power of your car often then you may find that "nah man, bags are fine, never ever had a problem" you will only never have a problem if you do not use the power (I.E. Generate enough heat!@ consistently) to degrade the housing.

My last housing was a 1.00A/R twin scroll size, and it was on for a few thousand km until it became a restriction and I swapped it out, it ran a bag but because the power level was low and not as much true proper high speed testing was done it did not look this bad. It takes BIG POWER and repeated power after power runs to accumulate the "heat" in the housing and not let it dissipate to over stress the housing. (NOTE: one or two consecutive laps on a low speed track racing for a plastic trophy!! is not high stress LOL) Its just proof of how hard I run my set ups in the name of true proper endurance testing and in that environment BAGS are a KUUUUUUNT!

Originally Posted by silverfdturbo6port

I've used bags and wrap n street machines for many many years with no issues. Even with drag racing, autocross and numerous 180+mph pulls on 100* days I've never seen them "BDC" nor myself turn into a "KUUNT" but those are not harsh conditions like a race car as stated by Peter.
But for a dedicated "Race" car I will guarantee you will see the effects like in the OP.
But for daily driving/street use and you want to keep the bay temps down then Bags, wrap, shielding, heat coatings all work great.

It's a function of power, restriction, retained heat, time used at high power.
Anyone familiar with FD3S twin turbo systems who has used them at high power (1.5bar boost @ ~400bhp or so) and over a huge length of time (say 50,000km+) will attest to the similar degradation of manifolds and turbine housings (non insulated!)

If you are making lower power, use it less frequently, have larger housings, turbo's etc all of this simply means you have less if ever any likely hood of seeing such things

*If you are making the power (with associated heat input!)
*Use it often and at high duration
*Even on a T4 platform with the biggest housing you can run and super low restriction outlet *see proven tests* you will fuck the housing if you insulate it... proven.

[RICE RACING]

DILDO CANNON

[RICE RACING]

Dildo Cannon in your face

[Grant M]

will you ceramic coat your manifold or stay with the heat shield? iv been looking at whether coating the turbine housing is a good idea? as i would have thought you dont want to keep a huge amount of heat in there once the engine is switched off and cooking the CHRA, although any rotary turbo owner shouldnt be turning their car off after thrashing the arse off it without cooling it down first.

my turbine housing runs extremely close to my LIM, within 10mm, maybe less. the LIM is going to be polished to help reflect the heat away however i want to be able to stop the heat from the turbine housing and i may not be able to fit a heat shield and this is where i thought of actually ceramic coating the turbine housing, what do you think i should do?

you got some pictures of the inside of the WI nozzle placement please?

with your new turbo spec are you planning to add more boost? see how far you can go with your CDI and WI?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Grant M

will you ceramic coat your manifold or stay with the heat shield? iv been looking at whether coating the turbine housing is a good idea? as i would have thought you dont want to keep a huge amount of heat in there once the engine is switched off and cooking the CHRA, although any rotary turbo owner shouldnt be turning their car off after thrashing the arse off it without cooling it down first.

my turbine housing runs extremely close to my LIM, within 10mm, maybe less. the LIM is going to be polished to help reflect the heat away however i want to be able to stop the heat from the turbine housing and i may not be able to fit a heat shield and this is where i thought of actually ceramic coating the turbine housing, what do you think i should do?

you got some pictures of the inside of the WI nozzle placement please?

with your new turbo spec are you planning to add more boost? see how far you can go with your CDI and WI?

You live in a great country so far as proper engineering so you can draw upon one of the few suppliers who do ceramic coating for F1 quality applications. Have a look at the RedBrick Racing EVO and the coating on their headers, that is the sort of thing you need, then you can fit in a stainless heat shield to the LIM no problem

E-Mail me and I will send you the picture you want, along with some other tips.

For me, I'm always testing and developing the best so the way I operate is I always release the old steps that have been proven and are behind where I am now, I'm always happy for other people to copy and benefit from my *old* knowledge just I don't really share the current developments until I find something (that is better) else through continual self learning ... that is my philosophy, you are never ever too experienced or know enough/everything, and the more I keep testing and proving water injection and its superiority for internal combustion engines the more I have to share with others who want the best *my old stuff I was doing people today copy and sell as current best practice/advice* its flattering lol Thus I don't openly disclose the Don Mega stuff, too many copy cats

[reid-o]

FWIW over the years--working at a few shops and having seen the market grow for turbocharged parts--a lot of the dangers of header wraps that apply to race situations and teams aren't the cause for failures with street driven cars. I completely agree with your recommendations but for different reasons, as I suspect that most header wraps, even the new composite ones, carry the risk of trapping moisture which compounds the rate of oxidation. Combine that with the fact that most headers are constructed out of the cheaper 304 material than 321 or 316 and you have a huge issue in some geographies. If you consider that the weekend warrior rarely hits wide open throttle, the moisture inside the wrap isn't always allowed to evaporate, but it still absorbs moisture through condensation every morning no matter what the climate is like, unless one lives in subsaharan africa. When I was working for a shop, i noticed that most of the cracked headers were from weekend "warriors" who hardly drove their cars, and while most of those customers chalked the failures to welding defects or the material not withstanding the power they were making, I always felt that there were too many cases to suggest that this was the case.

[UCTURBO]

Just a thought, but could alot of water cause a similar thing? Cast iron red hot then quenched with water? You would think the water would be well and truly steamed by the time it got to the turbine housing and have little effect. Its just a thought.

[RICE RACING]

No, that is not possible since water is a by product of combustion of fuel (without WI), so by your idea it would happen even without it
But you need to re read the information:
This only happens with sustained high load testing, it is thermal degradation of the turbine housings due to insulation and massive retention of heat energy.
The exact same happens to stock FD3S twin turbo systems with their restrictive turbine housings and exhaust manifolds where the cast iron gets eaten away and melted exactly like this (no WI involved) especially after a crack propagates then reducing heat transfer to a cooler part of the housing. *with thermal bags- there is no cooler part of the housing!*
Once you have a piece of metal hanging in the air stream without the ability to "reject" its heat to another cooler bit, that piece then becomes over stressed and much hotter as a result, and it gets "eaten away" this is what happened to the central divider in the split pulse turbine housing, it simply could not reject the heat fast enough (due to the thermal insulation of the turbo bag) and under sustained high load testing that piece got literally eaten away.
Without a turbo bag's retention of heat this would not happen.

[Grant M]

What turbo is that and how come no ported shroud?

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by Grant M

What turbo is that and how come no ported shroud?

Just one of a batch I was testing a while ago, its a Borg Warner, not a bad turbo.

These are some other parts I have been working with:

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