WI and running rich

[4drturbo]

I read a thread that its not a good idea.. Here is my setup:



I did have the injection nozzle after the Intake Air Temperature sensor so the PCM would not see the lower temps. But as you can see, it is BEFORE the sensor now close to the coldside outlet of the intercooler. The intercooler is a AGP direct fit with race core. (4.5'' core)

My injector is 280-340 cc/m (CM5)

Running a progressive controller.

Pump turns on at 9psi @ 25% duty cycle
Then I have the MAX setting at 18psi @ 100% duty cycle. I spike around 23 ish but falls to 19 by redline. Pump is a 250psi pump set at 200psi. It is mounted in the trunk:

About 14 feet of brake hose line before the upper pressure pipe.

The car:

Dodge Neon SRT-4 with the Mopar Stage 3 upgrade. No tune, using the factory Stage 3 PCM parameters. Running water injection for the cleaning properties and being able to maybe run more boost int he future with a different WGA I have. AFR's are in the 10.3-11.0 by redline. Normal for Stage 3 to run rich. Thinking of running more boost since I am only seeing a .5kr around redline. IATs are very stable and seem to go down 5 degrees or so after eveyr pull. Stay in the low 90 degree range.

Any ideas on what my setting should be? Should I run more boost since I am running rich? Remember, no tuning device. 100% distilled water in tank.

Thanks for any help!

[Richard L]

I belive you are running too rich to obtain good power. Dumping fuel for suppressing knock is not a good idea.

Ideally you need to run leaner and add water to suppress knock Since you cannot tune the fuel map. May be you can try the following:

1) Increase boost beyond the map sensor range
2) clamp the map sensor output so PCM cannot add fuel based on boost.
3) reduce fuel line pressure.

[4drturbo]

Thanks for the reply!
The Mopar Stage 3 fuel setup consists of a fuel rail with a FPR built into it. Once the car goes into boost it raises fuel pressure up to 75psi. No way to really alter that. There is a handheld tuner called a DiabloSport that I am looking into getting. Will be able to really alter things with that. Stage 3 consists of a 3 bar map sensor and a new TIP sensor among other things, like bigger turbo/manifold, injectors, and a new PCM.

I got a couple replies on a Dodge forum...kind of confused about even running WI now.

Originally Posted by The Pope

looks like you need a bigger turbo more than the injection system. The turbo will lean the fuel a bit and cool in the intake charge, also really dropping the pumping forces reducing the WGA opening pressure.

Looks more like your trying to cure a problem by causing more of it. If your already too rich don't drown the engine.lean it back to 13:1 and add injection.

SRTs have 540 injectors last I checked, 340 is smaller than a 87 2.2 T2 injector....

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have the stage 3 turbo by it self on my PT. But your going to need more turbo to get past your fueling, past your fueling is where you start using the injection.

when you add water to a metal / chemical fire it explodes because the temps are high enough to release the energy in the nitrogen in the water. Toss water on a cool camp fire and you just put it out. Lean it out with a bigger turbo and more than use up the stage 3 fuel, then have the injection come on at high boost to get more power.

Water does richen the mixture as it displaces volume normally occupied by air.
Adding methanol to the mix will make it cool more readily as meth has a very low latent heat point and it dramatically reduces the surface tension of the water.
Water IS going through your engine, did you think it was disappearing before the chamber?
Adding 50% methanol to the mix will richen it only 3.6% (assuming water is 10% of fuel).
This will be offset by 1.5% more lean the reaction will become with 50% less water.
So in total if you add meth your A/F's will change by 1.1% and that is negligible, especially when your already so rich.

it is assumed that the water injection is a water meth injection. You should end up around 11 with meth. But to start out before you hit the button should be around 13. I didn't say 13 after injection nor did I mention the size of the s3 injectors, I was commenting on the injector size mentioned.

boost is not the best way to get it lean. Small turbo create massive horse power killing drive pressure and heat trying to burn off that extra fuel. The best way to lean it is with cool intake boost and less drive pressure, IE bigger than stage 3 turbo. Then when you hit the button there is more room to get the extra HP, vs starting with an already max volume setup and trying to force more through it.....

Much like building a car for nitrous. You go just a little bigger on exhaust and carb, so you gain back what you lost when the button is pushed, you build for nitrous. Same thing, you have to build for where it ends up after the injection system hits

Thanks for your time.

[Richard L]

The FPR will only work if it is allowed to see the manifold pressure. You just bleed of some of the pressure that goes into the upper chamber, Something like a MBC may work just as well.

I wouldn't recommend you running water or methanol injection. You will loose power.

Water does richen the mixture as it displaces volume normally occupied by air.
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I do not agree with this statement. Not even close, at least not to the extent of affecting the afr.

[4drturbo]

Should I try raising the boost? Or don't even mess with the water injection until I get the DSP tuner? Maybe lower the duty cycle?
I took off the pipe the other day where the nozzle is.. and a little bit of water came out. A bit of nasty sludge in there too:

I noticed a couple times that my car had a hard time starting. I mean it started right away, but it was a bit sluggish.

[stevieturbo]

If your reservoir is mounted too high, water could be leaking into the inlet tract all the time.

Are you sure there is no adjustment at all on the FPR ?

What about using a piggyback ecu so you can have some control over fuel and timing ?

And whilst this perhaps isnt the best route. You could create an air leak/bypass for the MAF, so it doesnt see the entire volume of air the engine consumes, which would cause it to run leaner.
But you'd need to tread carefully with that