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Old 23-08-2004, 10:44 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default A technical article on Prodrive's Subaru WRC car + banning

Have just stumbled on a link on the technical write-up on the Subaru WRC.

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthr...ater+injection

It is running 4-bar!!! absolute, some good reference on water injection.
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Old 23-08-2004, 11:35 PM
hotrod hotrod is offline
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Default Good info

Richard:
Thanks for the link to that info. Very interesting.

Sad to hear that WRC intends to abolish WI in the future.

I really don't understand why so many racing series tend to prohibit WI.
It simply makes no sense to me. Has anyone ever figured out a vested interest that gets stepped on if WI is being used?

The only thing I can think of is the tendency of many racing series to have a spec fuel as a means of standardizing things. If that is the issue they could simply specify a specific ( series supplied ) spec water/alcohol blend to be used in any WI systems.

It just irritates me that WI and AWD are actively discriminated against in the vast majority of racing when they both have so much promise both for safety and performance.

(steps off soap box and walks away shaking head )

Larry
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Old 24-08-2004, 12:36 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Two years ago, my Singapore dealer told me that the SMSA (Singepore Motor Sport Association) decided to ban water injection on the very popular "Saturday night drag racing".

The reason was due to a few competitor compliant that the WI injected car has some "perceived" advantage over their machine. The compliants were upheld and WI is still being banned up to today. Fuel dumping is widespread now.

Same thing has happened on GT cars a few years earlier - We were supplying two teams.

Now is the WRC's turn - I don't yet know the reason, but I will find out.

If you are into Rallycars, remember the early years before water injection was used, every car shoots 6-foot flames out of the exhuast during each gear change - it was not a pretty sight. Since Ford homologated a bunch of Water Injected rally car in 1992 (2.500), all other teams soon followed. By 1997, all WRC (except Mitsubishi) has internal WI.

From that year onwards, no more 6-foot flames and all car runs clean and became "leaner and meaner". It appears that history is repeating itself again but when WI is "allowed" again in a few years time, we might have moved on and they need to find a new supplier.
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Old 25-08-2004, 08:43 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Rumour about the banning, it appears that it was a cost cutting exercise in effort to reduce the running expenses of operating a WRC car.

It has been on the wall for sometimes as SEAT, Skoda and Hyundai pulled out of the WRC in turns. I could be wrong but reducing the operating cost will allow more manufacturers to enter the championship and make the WRC ccompetition popular again (more works teams)

The propose ban doesn't come into effect until 1996. Currently there are the following manufacturers:
Subaru, Mitsubishi, Citroen, Ford, Peugeot and skoda (just returned) - there are over thirty car manufacturers at present.
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Old 09-09-2004, 09:12 AM
b_boy b_boy is offline
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I love that article--45 psi, narrowed bearings. The cost of water injection is nothing compared to internals on those engines. It's a lame excuse. I could see saying the cars were too powerful and trying to dock them to prevent accidents, but from what I've seen power has little to do with rally accidents. There have been some major ones recently and it was all terrain or tank stopping stone monuments (how stupid can you be to route through anti-tank zone, why not put concrete barriers up of the outside of turns too).
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Old 13-09-2004, 09:04 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Lame excuses, rules and regularation is a sign of the man in grey suit stretching their muscles to ensure thaeir presence is felt.

I would consider Rally is a poor relative of Formula1 just because of difficulties in filming in the wild for TV coverage - F1 is a "ready-made" spectator sport that requires little or no-effort. Frankly it make me go to sleep everytime I watch it.

Rally, on the otherhand is struggling to keep the sponsors interested due to less TV coverage and little advertising revenue (banner placement etc) and teams pulling out is a regular event - I think the man in grey suits have a hard job in keeping the expenses down for the manufacturers.

Water injection is not an expensive item compared to some little things like the gear lever!
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Old 14-09-2004, 12:57 AM
SaabTuner SaabTuner is offline
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They'll use more fuel without the water, which means they'll buy more fuel, which mean someone will make slightly more money.

I think right now they can only run water in the injection system, without any alcohol. I suspect this strongly because of the 98 RON limitation on the octane rating, which an alocohol injection would upset.

With just water it's still better than fuel dumping. I think it's rediculous that they would ban it for any reason. The additional required weight in fuel would nearly off-set the decrease in weight from the removal of the WI system and componants.

If they want to lower cost ban the use of electro-hydraulic transmissions. They will still be competitive as long as no one uses them, and they would reduce the cost significantly since just one transmission alone costs over $70,000.

Adrian~
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Old 02-11-2004, 12:13 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Despite many emails and tried lobbying the right people, the WI "ban" is imminent in 2006.
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Old 02-11-2004, 04:18 AM
PuntoRex PuntoRex is offline
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These "major" races are really getting more & more ridiculous.

They just keep banning this & that by the name of "making the game hotter". The results are actually boring.

The regulations keep trying to slow them down, but they still going faster & faster. (with some other more expensive ways, maybe) Faster they are, the games are still getting boring. What's wrong?

I'd rather watch 2-wheel races or European local autocross with much more head to tail chasings & "rotating" takeovers. That's car racing, instead of yawning high speed parade.

Being an audience, a good game for me is the combination of amazing machine, amazing pace & hot competition. Nowadays, IMHO, these major games almost lose 2 of them. The pleasure watching the games is fading quicky, sadly.

Back to WRC, I'm not sure if it's because the bad TV programer or it's the game itself. WRC is not exiting to watch anymore. Is it really so difficult to arrange some sections with better camera coverage? The footage of hairpin swings, power slides, air born etc. are just not long enough & fluent enough. Most I saw were fractional like fast switching slide show, instead of moving picture. And many onboard cameras are aiming at the wrong angle.

I always think banning this & that is not the answer to make races better to watch. F1 banned turbo long ago, WRC is going to ban the very cost & performance effetive WI. What's next? Banning turbo? :roll: Come on, be my guest, just ban the entire engine & let's ride a tricycle sliding through the hairpin.

Maybe a few years on, the exciting machines left are those "Fast & Furious" style things in movies only.
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Old 02-11-2004, 04:55 AM
hotrod hotrod is offline
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Default Combination

Its a combination of problems in my view. The current choppy style of editing in WRC, is more a case of the "current editing fashion" in advertising. The younger folks are so used to that style of editing that they lose interest if each clip lasts longer than 3 seconds. I've noticed this trend ever since they began using "quick cut" editing in TV commercials a while back to force people to concentrate on the commercial.

I agree I appreciate the engineering development side of racing as much as the drivers or driving techniques. Since the move towards "super star" drivers the focus has shifted from the hardware to the driver. I think a large fraction of the audience could care less what the guys are driving, they just want their team to win.

I am not a fan of the current trend toward "more competitive racing". They are choaking out simple inovations and pushing up the cost by forcing a very narrow range of improvements that come at a high R&D cost.

I'd like to see more (to use a classic American expression) "run what ya brung" type racing, where the rules are very basic, and inovation is encouraged. That is one of the things that makes American Bracket Racing at the drag strip so popular. The equipment rules are very simple and open, they create the competition by using a timing handicap system where vastly different cars can compete in very close races. In the final few rounds, they are frequently being decided by thousandths of a second, and litterally inches at the finish line.

Maybe someone needs to create a racing series that mandates low cost inovative design, like some form or WI, and a 80 octane fuel

Larry
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