Water vs Methanol : Ultimate Tuning

[rotrex]

2. Install a air assisted nozzle upstream of the turbo as in Riceracing's system. A significant portion of it's very fine mist will pass the CC. The evaporation in the turbocharger reduces droplet size even further with the majority of the vapor being the more volatile methanol. This leaves the water to do the cylinder work. As the mist is very fine, little fluid will separate in the CC. Even if, it does no harm.

Will consider this... any links for more info/video/pics ?


Just Check riceracing's threat on precompressor injection up in this Section.
He describes in great details his set-up and his way up on the power ladder.

http://www.riceracing.com.au/water-injection.htm
http://www.aquamist.co.uk/forum2/vbu...ead.php?t=1590

Some pictures:
http://www.rx7club.com/race-parts-on...n-kit-1035465/

He mounted his personal system into the air filter. Air assisted nozzles produce a finer mist than hydraulic nozzles.
His system used the boost pressure to drive the spray. It does not employ a high pressure pump. It is all pumped by boost.

[parmas]

Would consider rice racing setup for pre-turbo. Do you have a diagram/picture of the system?

[rotrex]

If you check the links I have posted, You will find plenty of pictures.

[Flr Power]

Originally Posted by rotrex

If you check the links I have posted, You will find plenty of pictures.

Haha, you sure have posted a lot of information.

Parma's, don't do it. About 70% of the anti detonation properties of WM is performed inside the cylinders. So make it good there.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by Flr Power

Haha, you sure have posted a lot of information.

Parma's, don't do it. About 70% of the anti detonation properties of WM is performed inside the cylinders. So make it good there.

If I conside using RiceRacing setup, I will use together with the current system and that will be just for pre-turbo application.

I am sure this setup cannot be used post turbo as with the equal oost pressures of air and water nothing can go out ...

[rotrex]

??
Why should I post lots of info off a commercial system that can be found on this very same forum? He was asking for pictures. There a few pics in the links of the system that uses a air assisted nozzle.
Getting water as a fine mist efficiently into a cylinder is unfortunately not as trivial as it sounds
So did I do anything wrong in your view?

[Flr Power]

You are both making this too complicated. Use high pressure pump 200+psi to gain better atomization efficiency. You will NEVER have perfect efficiency in ANY system but if you stay with the BASIC you may get as close to 94.2584% to a theoretical 100% efficiency...

[rotrex]

I agree to that :-)
It is just that parmas currently runs without a intercooler and relies on pre compressor injection to keep temperature under control. If he upgrades to a intercooler, I'd also simplify. If it isn't sufficient, inject more.

I never suggested to do anything complicated. I was merely listing a selection of choices for different scenarios shall he change his set-up. Dual stage dual fluid is crazy for little merit.
IT is strongly against the KISS principle without offering any significant benefits over similarly costing and proven alternatives. On a front ended car there is usually plenty of space to fit a big air to air intercooler. This will have way more benefit than a too fancy of a WI system. A simple one will do fine as you wrote.

Riceracing's Systeme is not complicated, a container, a solenoid or flow control device, a air assisted atomizing nozzle with external mixing and some tubes. It is about as simple as it gets and seems to work well for him and his customers. After all, pre compressor injection is what was used by the American WW2 piston engines with their very high pressure ratios.
This high pressure ratio also where it makes the most sense.

The pump systems are more flexible regarding nozzle location and lower pressure ratio cannot take as much advantage of pre compressor injection as the high pressure systems with their very high turbo exit temperatures and at times inefficient intercoolers.

A pump system with nozzles positioned to get stuff into the cylinders is the most suitable in most cases. For Parmas' set-up as is, no IC, pre compressor is the right choice IMHO.

For my mid engine charge cooled apöication, I'd still would like to give it a goo, but con't as boost is not high enough at all times on WOT (centrifugal SC) to properly drive a air assisted nozzle.

Parmas, any videos of your car? I always love the sound of angry FI engines.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by rotrex

I agree to that :-)
It is just that parmas currently runs without a intercooler and relies on pre compressor injection to keep temperature under control. If he upgrades to a intercooler, I'd also simplify. If it isn't sufficient, inject more.

To be exact, rely on pre-turbo for better compressor efficiency + air temp + post turbo to compensate. Intercooler is a no go for me!

I never suggested to do anything complicated. I was merely listing a selection of choices for different scenarios shall he change his set-up. Dual stage dual fluid is crazy for little merit.

AGREED

IT is strongly against the KISS principle without offering any significant benefits over similarly costing and proven alternatives. On a front ended car there is usually plenty of space to fit a big air to air intercooler. This will have way more benefit than a too fancy of a WI system. A simple one will do fine as you wrote.

Again no intercooler sorry

Riceracing's Systeme is not complicated, a container, a solenoid or flow control device, a air assisted atomizing nozzle with external mixing and some tubes. It is about as simple as it gets and seems to work well for him and his customers. After all, pre compressor injection is what was used by the American WW2 piston engines with their very high pressure ratios.
This high pressure ratio also where it makes the most sense.

A diagram would be ideal... the tank can be situated into the engine bay ?

The pump systems are more flexible regarding nozzle location and lower pressure ratio cannot take as much advantage of pre compressor injection as the high pressure systems with their very high turbo exit temperatures and at times inefficient intercoolers.

A pump system with nozzles positioned to get stuff into the cylinders is the most suitable in most cases. For Parmas' set-up as is, no IC, pre compressor is the right choice IMHO.

I don't think of injecting everything pre-turbo since the compressor would need to deal with too much evaporation that could cause damage to the wheel.

For my mid engine charge cooled apöication, I'd still would like to give it a goo, but con't as boost is not high enough at all times on WOT (centrifugal SC) to properly drive a air assisted nozzle.

Parmas, any videos of your car? I always love the sound of angry FI engines.

I had one in-car video... need to find it. With the next build I will keep this in mind and make as much videos as possible!

[rotrex]

This threat shows install pictures:
http://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-inj...-pics-1031140/

A diagram:
http://www.mx6.com/forums/2g-mx6-for...ml#post2606465

A video:
http://youtu.be/8Lizxy3XIY8

Depending on pressure and flow, you get median droplet diameters of half the total volume in the range of 30-80 microns with air assisted nozzles while hydraulic nozzles are more in the range of 200-500µm. The media diameters over total number of droplets are in the range of some five to 5-20 µm vs. 100-200 µm. These numbers are not hard numbers as every manufacturer and type of nozzle acts a little different.

there is a reason you go for air assisted if smallest droplets are a main factor for performance, e.g. Paint spray, cooling in manufacturing processes, e.g. Plastic milling, or humidification systems.

It has its merits, I'd therefore not slag it off just because Snow XXX does not sell it.

Why would you not even consider a small air to air cooler? The benefits for performance would be tremendous.

Regards
Marko