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Old 20-03-2016, 03:52 AM
robos4 robos4 is offline
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Default Questions on my direct port meth setup

NEW UPDATE

Now making 482WHP with 4 x 0.5mm jets, refer to page 4 post #44

All I can say is - Direct Port Meth FTW!!! Best mod I have ever done in 15 years of modifying cars......

I now run 4 x 0.5mm (but I started with 0.4mm jets) check valved jets in my intake plenum through the Aquamist kit (it's now always running for track as well).

For more information is best to pm or email me - robmonckton@gmail.com I'm happy to share all the details.


Hi All,

I know there is couple of threads on direct port but I just need some help understanding a few things and see what you think of the setup.

I'm in the process of fitting an HFS-3 kit to run 50/50 water/meth on my EVO X. The engine is a stroker build with CBRD BorgWarner 7163 turbo kit putting down 430whp @ 1.7 bar boost on a heart breaker mainline dyno. (1,000 cc inj and will run 1.9bar with this meth kit)

I only want to use the kit to help control knock and a little more power. I keep reading of many evo's having issues when only putting meth in the I/C pipe due to cyl 1 / 4 not getting equal flow (I had that problem already with the stock engine).

So I am putting 4 nozzles into the intake manifold (pic below for location). You can see the drilled holes for the 4 nozzles.











I'm going with 4 x 0.4mm jets.

Do I need to be worried about under vacuum sucking the meth through the lines? do I need something else to be added with the HFS-3 kit (I read about the check valves but don't quite understand if that is needed fo rmy application)?

Thanks in advance
Rob
Singapore

Last edited by robos4; 25-09-2017 at 10:24 AM.
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Old 20-03-2016, 09:03 AM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

If you use a metering valve like the FAV , you won't need a additional check valve. There is no pressure differential across the jets.

I would even considering installing 0.5mm jets in your case. Disadvantage is yout mapping depends more and more on the WI the more you inject. If you use the car on track, consumption goes up a fair bit as you are on the throttle a lot.
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Old 20-03-2016, 09:50 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

Rotrex, I have a different view on this...

DP jets do require isolation after the FAV unless you are using four FAVs.

The pressure/vacuum does fluctuate between ports due to the inlet valve opens and shut at different timing intervals especially after lift off. The fluid inside the tubing will commuting and eventually being emptied.

It is important to minimise this effect especially on engines with aggressive cam profile. This can cause pre-ignition or worse still, blowing up the manifold when high concentration of methanol is use.

This is the reason when we offer the DP bundle for a one-stop solution.
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Old 20-03-2016, 10:12 AM
parmas parmas is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by robos4 View Post
Hi All,

I keep reading of many evo's having issues when only putting meth in the I/C pipe due to cyl 1 / 4 not getting equal flow (I had that problem already with the stock engine).


Thanks in advance
Rob
Singapore
Where did you put exactly the nozzle into the I/C pipe? pics?

Have you tried to put the nozzle just before the throttle body ? see attachment
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PRE-TURBO HEATING.jpg (116.2 KB, 18 views)
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  #5  
Old 20-03-2016, 11:12 AM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

A 4mm line with a 2mm ID with a 2mm ID has a volume of about 3ml per meter.
That dribble from 4 nozzles spilling over the course of few seconds won't blow up anything.
With aggressive cams you blow way more fuel from the cylinder into the manifold under those conditions.
Even fuel cut on overrun will continue to inject fuel for a few hundred milliseconds tapering down to prevent catalytic converter overheat from sudden inrush of excess oxygen.
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Old 20-03-2016, 11:45 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

The ID for a 4mm hose is 2.5mm. Also the volume in the distribution manifold is 2-3cc of fluid and decompression of the pressurised hose. I can see 10cc or more will be seen. Having a inline checkvalve should cut it down by ~80%

The likelihood of an explosion is subject to stoichiometric, not easy to predict the exact amount of air after lift off. It can happen as long as there is fuel left in the manifold.

At what phase does the over-lap blow fuel into the manifold? I was referring to the exhaust stroke. I do think the modern multipoint sequential system inject fuel during this period.

Also, the delay wmi injection on the next event, cavity has to be refilled before reaching the tip of the jets.
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  #7  
Old 20-03-2016, 08:51 PM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

The beauty of the jets with the integrated check valves is that there is no extra effort to install or extra connections. Just jets and that's it. If their break pressure is low there is no downside.


In my car, I have "masked" the onset of the WI by extending the acceleration fueling just long enough to have no knock upon sudden WOT.
I have never had issues with plenum backfires.
The dead volume past the HSV in my system is rather small as I just use y-junctions with a low dead volume. I should measure it once the opportunity arises.
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Old 21-03-2016, 04:25 AM
robos4 robos4 is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

Thanks guys for your replies..

Parts of this are in a different language but I'm following (just).

Few more facts,

This is mostly a track car but the meth kit is only to be used on the street.

I am running a port and polish, Cosworth MX1 cams and oversized valves..

I figured the 0.4MM jets would atomize better being so close to the cylinders..

I am planning to run from the FAV one line split in two then those lines split in two again.

The kit is being installed this week so I don't have time to wait for a new set of jets. Are you saying there is a chance I won't have enough flow to deliver the benefits of what I'm trying to achieve?

I'm going to try the system as is (without check valves).

I'll ask my tuner to make sure there is minimum droplets after lift off (back fire option) as I don't think that will mix well with meth in the manifold lol.
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  #9  
Old 21-03-2016, 04:29 AM
robos4 robos4 is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

Quote:
Originally Posted by parmas View Post
Where did you put exactly the nozzle into the I/C pipe? pics?

Have you tried to put the nozzle just before the throttle body ? see attachment
Hey Parmas,

Sorry I meant I had problems without meth on the stock engine (when I rebui8lt it), cyl 4 was damaged due to running too lean. It must be a poor design from the intake manifold as it's obviously not getting equal flow. (the injectors were flow tested and came back fine).

Putting a jet just before throttle body in my mind wouldn't help me cure my cylinders receiving un even flow still.

Rob
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Old 21-03-2016, 06:47 AM
Iguanapeluda Iguanapeluda is offline
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Default Re: Questions on my direct port meth setup

Hi!

Is it a good post!, where exactly do you install the nozzles in the intake manifold? In my car, I don"t know where is better...

Do you install it where the red marks are you painted?
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