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  #61  
Old 29-10-2017, 11:13 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Exclamation Re: Nozzle spray angle...

The mix sat in my semi-opaque Pe tank overnight, and after reading Richard's
warning I went to drain and clean the tank. When I looked inside it looked like
the mix had settled, but there was a layer of "waxy platelets" floating on the
surfuce of the liquid.

If I can find a suitable glass jar I will conduct an experiment by mixing up a
sample and observing what happens over 24 hours. I do know that the meth
decanted clear and the "super distilled" drinking water I am using is also clear.
But when the two are mixed the colour change is virtually instantaneous.

Cheers... jondee86
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  #62  
Old 29-10-2017, 10:53 PM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

Chemist here.
Water and methanol mix in any ratio and are fully soluble in each other. It turns hot when you mix water and methanol. That is normal. There is no formation of any insuluble components unless the methanol or the water contains impurities.
As mention before, hydrocarbons, i.e. a wax, are the most likely contaminats in your case.
Shorter chained hydrocarbons from a petrol additive would be liquid at room temperature and float as droplets on the surface after some time.

I'd look for a better methanol.
I have used Efoy fuel cell methanoi.

For the indicated AFR of you wideband, tune for 12-12.5:1 (petrol equivalent) = lambda 0.8-0.85
If you run much richer you lose a lot of power.
You will also need sufficient ingnition advance. The mix burns a tad slower than pure petrol.

Last edited by rotrex; 29-10-2017 at 11:01 PM.
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  #63  
Old 30-10-2017, 09:15 PM
RICE RACING RICE RACING is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

The bit of advice missing on giving a target excess fuel level is to first consider knock limitation of the engine.

This is #1 in order BEFORE going for a arbitrary 'ideal' setting on fuel. There is no point targeting one thing if the engine is in 'pieces'

IF you are needing WI in the first place this in most cases means you are knock limited and its very common knowledge that the tendency towards knock drops with 45% range of excess fuel along with WM50 being administered, using less greatly increase the level of knock seen and its pretty poor advice to give to say target a certain point, without mentioning the most important aspect IE: keeping the engine alive.

If you need to see graphs in terms people understand of real applications then I am happy to provide them, I can show you how marginal this is with various levels in Lambda terms from 0.70 to 0.73 to 0.76, it has a large effect.
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  #64  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:51 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Exclamation Re: Nozzle spray angle...

I made a test with about a 35% methanol to water mix in a clean container,
and it did get milky and it did get warm. Over ther first 24 hours there was no
apparent settling or change in colour, but after 48 hours I can see a clearer
layer forming at the bottom of the container. It is currently about 1/3rd of
the total sample.I shall continue to observe

After discussing the matter with the supplier of the methanol, it appears that
he recycled a container that had previously held another product. So he has
undertaken to replace the contaminated product with 20 litres decanted into
a fresh new container. I shall test a sample before using it to make sure it
remains clear after mixing.

Cheers... jondee86
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  #65  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:08 PM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

Personally, I'd return this methanol and discard the mix.
Any milkyness while mixing should disappear within say less than a minute. Mine never went milky, just some schlieren.
Milkyness means there is a phase separation, so droplets of one fluid in an other fluid. Methanol does not do that. Enthalpy of mixing and solubility too great. Your methanol contains a compount that is insoluble in water, but disolves in methanol.

Get fresh pure methanol, best in original containers. The residues, maybe even polymeric in nature, may clog your pump, valves and nozzles over time.
If the residue is soluble in pure methanol, I would flush the system and nozzles with pure fresh methanol and check the spray pattern of all jets before any driving.

Peter,
My engine was always knock limited. Knock happend before peak torque could be reached.
More mix allowed to gain more torque once ignition timing was optimized. I never went as far as finding the limit for the boost employed as mix consumption become too high for my track use and tank size. Power was good enough. Lotus Elise Mk1.
Only constant factor was that much richer than some 0.75 or some 11, give or take a bit, and achievable power of my set-up dropped under methanol water. 0.8 was fine, 0.85 was fine, 0.9 was fine. 0.7 it did not like as combustion went slow. I did not discriminate between initiation vs flame front speed. No ignition advance would compensate, so likely flame front speed.

Last edited by rotrex; 03-11-2017 at 11:39 PM.
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  #66  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:40 PM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Nozzle spray angle...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotrex View Post
Get fresh pure methanol, best in original containers. The residues, maybe
even polymeric in nature, may clog your pump, valves and nozzles over
time. If the residue is soluble in pure methanol, I would flush the system
and nozzles with pure fresh methanol and check the spray pattern of all
jets before any driving.
Yes, the original delivery is being returned and will be replaced by a fresh
delivery in a new (unused) container. I shall test a sample before mixing any
for my spraying system. I shall also rinse my spray tank with pure methanol
as you suggest, to remove any residue remaining from the contaminated mix.

The car was not driven or the pump activated while the contaminated mix
was in the tank. I removed the tank and washed it thoroughly with water
after dumping the contents. So I think the system will be OK.

Cheers... jondee86
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  #67  
Old 10-11-2017, 04:35 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Smile Re: Nozzle spray angle...

The contaminated mix has cleared quite a bit but still looks "dirty" after
sitting for more than a week undisturbed. It seems uniform with no apparent
phase separation or sediment, but there is a thin oily/waxy film floating on
the surface that is evident when the container is held to the light.

Now the replacement 20 litres of methanol has turned up, and when tested
exhibited no milkiness whatsoever when mixed with water. The mixture
remained just as clear as the individual components. So onward and upwards

Cheers... jondee86
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  #68  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:08 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Question Re: Nozzle spray angle...

So, question for the chemist How important or even necessary is it to
vent the water/methanol tank ? Will the methanol dissociate or come out
of solution with the water and evaporate if the tank has an open vent?

Motorsport regulations here stipulate that all fuel tanks must be fitted
with vents that terminate outside the cabin of the vehicle. But the regs
make no specific mention of methanol/water tanks and I would like to be
aware if there is any danger in having a non-vented tank.

Cheers... jondee86
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  #69  
Old 11-11-2017, 01:50 PM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Nozzle spray angle...

My Aquamist tank had a vent build into the tank cap.
Things won't separate in the liquid phase, but if you expose the tank to higher temperatures, e.g. parking in the sun in summer, the methanol will preferentially evaporate and build up a pressure in the tank. At worst, it might pop the tank.
So having a kind of a vent makes sense.

Also as mix is used, the fluid volume needs to be replaced by air in the tank. This has tom come from somewhere, hence a vent.
This is unless you run a bladder tank.
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  #70  
Old 13-11-2017, 02:11 AM
jondee86 jondee86 is offline
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Thumbs up Re: Nozzle spray angle...

OK... since I can't imagine that the generation of vapor or vacuum due to
usage being sudden or great, I will fit a small diameter (2-3mm dia) with a
fish tank filter/bubbler on the end.



Should prevent any dust or bugs getting into the tank

Cheers... jondee86

Last edited by jondee86; 13-11-2017 at 05:49 AM.
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