Using water-only system year-round? Feedback?

[FI_Rubicon]

Hi There,

I'm a bit of a noob but have been reading about WMI for years incuding on this forum. I would like to implement a water only system tht I can use year round with occasional trips to the mountains/snow. I hope to order an HFS4 by the end of the month and install it on my 3.6L pentastar jeep JK wrangler with a measured 9psi peak TVS style blower.

I am wondering if my proposed installation techniques will help avoid line freezing.

First of all, since this will be a water-only system, I was thinking to run the lines through the car and possibly above where the exhaust runs where the floor is a little warm. It's a jeep so I am not worried about a line break and getting gallon of water inside. That is a pretty tame issue for a jeep.

That pretty much leaves the lines in the engine compartment exposed. I can route that part of the line along the side of the blower to keep it from freezing.

Aside from giving the jeep time to warm up, are there any install or use technics that I can use (aside turning the system off) to keep this a year round system?

At this point, I am thinking to run the aquamist tank so maybe a bottle of Heet or two when I head to the mountains as extra protection?

Thanks in advance for any guidance.

[Dust]

I am currently running E85, so the need for methanol in my system isn't there. That said, the alcohol could still be beneficial for you. I run -30F washer fluid as that is as cold as it's going to get ever here. I could cut it 50/50 with water if I wanted to, but don't want to worry about it.

The big question is, are you going to get tuned for the kit, and how much will you be spraying? Alcohol will change your AFRs, but I don't know how much it will change with a small nozzle with a small percentage of alcohol.

If you have a wideband, you could try both mixes and see what your AFR looks like.

[FI_Rubicon]

I still plan to run methanol in the tank too. I ended up ordering three jets that I hope are sized for 50/50, washer fluid and pure water. I will just swap jet and tune when I swap the tank contents.

When I run pure water, I can do that without bugging (or paying) my tuner for a new tune. The Diablosport Trinity allows me to modify my existing AFR-correct tune with up to 10 degrees of timing advance in three different RPM ranges.

Don't want to fling any dung here but why bother with E85? My tuner said that if I wanted an e85 tune that he would end up richening the mixture and lowering the fuel economy and I would go through a tank of gas a lot more quickly than I already do. Jeeps with 37" tires already have a serious drinking problem as it is.

The tack that I am going go take is to tune for pure petrol in the fuel tank and a second tune for WM50.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by FI_Rubicon

I still plan to run methanol in the tank too. I ended up ordering three jets that I hope are sized for 50/50, washer fluid and pure water. I will just swap jet and tune when I swap the tank contents.

Or else if you have a custom ecu make a basemap for every mixture like I did !

When I run pure water, I can do that without bugging (or paying) my tuner for a new tune. The Diablosport Trinity allows me to modify my existing AFR-correct tune with up to 10 degrees of timing advance in three different RPM ranges.

Do you mean like a variable knob for fuel and ignition timing?

Don't want to fling any dung here but why bother with E85? My tuner said that if I wanted an e85 tune that he would end up richening the mixture and lowering the fuel economy and I would go through a tank of gas a lot more quickly than I already do. Jeeps with 37" tires already have a serious drinking problem as it is.

AGREED!

The tack that I am going go take is to tune for pure petrol in the fuel tank and a second tune for WM50.

AGREED!

..........

[FI_Rubicon]

Yes, with the Diablosport Trinty, I can carry a number of tune files in the device and flash the PCM when I want to change a tune. And that is indeed what I am doing.

The device also allows you to customize the tune with quick adjust parameters that take less time to fiddle with than loading a complete tune.

The interesting parameters that I have available (as software "knobs") are:

I can go up to 10 degrees of advance or retard:
WOT SPARK 1-3.8krpm
WOT SPARK 4-4.8krpm
WOT SPARK 5-7krpm


I can add or subtract up to 20% fuel:
WOT FUEL 1-3.8krpm
WOT FUEL 4-4.8krpm
WOT FUEL 5-7krpm


I have WBO2 connected and the device allows me to monitor and log interesting PIDs like:

ST KNK RETARD
LT KNK RETARD
BASE SPK
SPK ADVNC

Short term knock retard seems to just be the difference between BASE SPK and SPK ADVNC.

Anyway, before installing the HFS-4, my tune already had as much timing as I was going to get out of it.

Here are my settings for 25% methanol by weight:

I can go up to 10 degrees of advance or retard:
WOT SPARK 1-3.8krpm +8*
WOT SPARK 4-4.8krpm +6*
WOT SPARK 5-7krpm +8*


I can go rich or lean by up to 20%:
WOT FUEL 1-3.8krpm 2% lean
WOT FUEL 4-4.8krpm 5% lean
WOT FUEL 5-7krpm 6% lean

I think ignition is pretty much dialed in with the above and I get no long term knock retard and a little short term retard under extreme conditions but I understand that to be normal.

AFRs are about 11.6% across the RPM band at WOT and I am still fine tuning.

[parmas]

Originally Posted by FI_Rubicon

Yes, with the Diablosport Trinty, I can carry a number of tune files in the device and flash the PCM when I want to change a tune. And that is indeed what I am doing.

The device also allows you to customize the tune with quick adjust parameters that take less time to fiddle with than loading a complete tune.

The interesting parameters that I have available (as software "knobs") are:

I can go up to 10 degrees of advance or retard:
WOT SPARK 1-3.8krpm
WOT SPARK 4-4.8krpm
WOT SPARK 5-7krpm


I can add or subtract up to 20% fuel:
WOT FUEL 1-3.8krpm
WOT FUEL 4-4.8krpm
WOT FUEL 5-7krpm


I have WBO2 connected and the device allows me to monitor and log interesting PIDs like:

ST KNK RETARD
LT KNK RETARD
BASE SPK
SPK ADVNC

Short term knock retard seems to just be the difference between BASE SPK and SPK ADVNC.

Anyway, before installing the HFS-4, my tune already had as much timing as I was going to get out of it.

Here are my settings for 25% methanol by weight:

I can go up to 10 degrees of advance or retard:
WOT SPARK 1-3.8krpm +8*
WOT SPARK 4-4.8krpm +6*
WOT SPARK 5-7krpm +8*


I can go rich or lean by up to 20%:
WOT FUEL 1-3.8krpm 2% lean
WOT FUEL 4-4.8krpm 5% lean
WOT FUEL 5-7krpm 6% lean

I think ignition is pretty much dialed in with the above and I get no long term knock retard and a little short term retard under extreme conditions but I understand that to be normal.

AFRs are about 11.6% across the RPM band at WOT and I am still fine tuning.

Although the control knobs are nice and simple I really don't like them at all.

From experience, I learnt to better adjust a basemap accordingly instead.

Could you share with us what engine/head/turbo etc.. specs you have. Also ignition timing values/ spark plugs over stock and ignition system is a good reference aswell?

Mine was an Forged 1.5L 8.5:1 compression / complete stock head / GT2560R @ 22psi 6800-7200rpm.

Ignition system is haltech truck coils x 4 with high tensions. Stock heatrange worked fine with 16psi while increase heat range by 1 with 22psi.

Ignition timing was high 40Degrees on low boost tapering low 40s on high boost.

AFR was found to be 13.5-14 running WM40.

[FI_Rubicon]

Originally Posted by parmas

Although the control knobs are nice and simple I really don't like them at all.

From experience, I learnt to better adjust a basemap accordingly instead.

Could you share with us what engine/head/turbo etc.. specs you have. Also ignition timing values/ spark plugs over stock and ignition system is a good reference aswell?

Mine was an Forged 1.5L 8.5:1 compression / complete stock head / GT2560R @ 22psi 6800-7200rpm.

Ignition system is haltech truck coils x 4 with high tensions. Stock heatrange worked fine with 16psi while increase heat range by 1 with 22psi.

Ignition timing was high 40Degrees on low boost tapering low 40s on high boost.

AFR was found to be 13.5-14 running WM40.

Completely agree on hard coding everything in the tune file itself and running sans knobs. You get finer control and more options to twiddle in the tune. I plan to get it all hard coded anyway, whether I send it to my tuner or do it myself. Either way, twiddling the knobs is kind of fun to get it in the ball bark and then go with the tune file and logging from there.

In my case, this is a rock crawling jeep wrangler that goes offroad. I carry camping gear and some spare parts in case I break it out in the middle of nowhere. If I shove a spare axle through the water tank while navigating the granite rock garden then I can just back the timing out easily. Reflashing the tune file takes more time.

The Diablosport CMR software that you would use in conjunction with the device is cost prohibitive for the individual at ~$2,500 USD. Not sure how many cars you get to tune with that, though.

The other option I have is the HP Tuners software and interface. That is more reasonable @~$850 or so for the "pro" version that can take 4 analog inputs.

The engine:
3.6L VVT "Pentastar" as found in a 2013 Jeep wrangler
Compression 10:1
This motor itself is all stock and pretty well built from the factory. For example, I believe that it has forged internals.
Stock HP for this motor in the jeep is 285bhp on 86 octane. Other models are rated at about 20bhp more from software tuning (and I think a 91 octane requirement).
The ignition system is stock but it has the individual coil packs above each spark plug like my E46 BMW. Plugs are also the stock type and range.

Supercharger: Eaton 1320 TVS with liquid to air intercooler mounted under the blower and between the heads. The blower is rated at 8psi but I am logging over 9psi peak and with the WMI flicked on, I just barely crested 10psi - like 10.2 psi. I also opened up the intake because the stock intake was a little restrictive with the blower trying to pull through it. It took opening the intake to get it over 9psi.

I had not been logging base spark and actual spark until my most recent log because I was just tuning based on the amount of knock retard that I was seeing.

At WOT and as boost and RPM are building, I am seeing Base Spark between 18 and 19 degrees. Actual Spark is ranging between 23.5 and 26 degrees.

[parmas]

Thanks for the reply.

Good reference for the Jeep guys....

[Flr Power]

You should not tune to knock with wi...

[parmas]

Originally Posted by Flr Power

You should not tune to knock with wi...

What is your perspective on tuning W.I Flr power ?