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  #1  
Old 14-06-2010, 08:42 PM
Ilkka Ilkka is offline
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Default Strange setup problems

Hello,

I bought the HFS-3 system for my Saab NG900 2.0 turbo -96 with the original Trionic 5 engine management system (around 350Hp, 500Nm before the Aquamist). Spent the weekend with the installation and today started to perform final system tests. I instantly ran into strange problems.

Once I turn the ignition key to pre-crank position and wait a few seconds for the system to start, all three lights on the board lit up (constantly). At the same time the pump starts pumping and doesn't stop until I turn the ignition off. I measured the voltage on the injector- wire (soldered to the pin 3 wire coming out of the ECU) during pre-crank, and it was 0.12V. Injectors are Siemens Deka 630cc, 12ohm. The black and white wires are grounded to the chassis ground point near the ECU.

If I start the car, the pump shuts down and the F-IDC led starts to flicker and the two other leds aren't active, just as it should be. Now the injector- measures 14.1V at idle. Injector+ (red wire) and main power (red wire) measure 14.3V (connected to the same pin 60 ignition switched wire coming into the ECU). With the threshold trimmer at the minimum, if I blip the throttle the THRES led lits but nothing comes out of the nozzle. If I put a jumper to the SYS, the nozzle outputs a nice cone.

Below you can find a lot of information on Trionic 5. The ECU pinout can be found on page 125.

Here's how I connectd the HFS-3 to it:
Pin 3 - injector- (green)
Pin 26 - fail safe (cut the wire and used brown and white)
Pin 60 - injector+ (red)

http://trionic.mobixs.eu/Trionic%205.pdf

Any idea how to start debugging the system?

I have access to portable oscilloscope etc, and work daily with electronic instruments and devices.

Thanks!

Ilkka from Finland

A few pictures at different stages of the install.








Last edited by Ilkka; 15-06-2010 at 08:08 AM.
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  #2  
Old 15-06-2010, 05:44 PM
Ilkka Ilkka is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

Would love to get some customer support from the manufacturer of this expensive device.

Here's the wiring diagram of the Trionic 5. As described earlier, injector- (green wire) is connected to the pin 3 on the ECU (E33 wire on the diagram).

206a-d are the injectors.


Last edited by Ilkka; 15-06-2010 at 05:47 PM.
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  #3  
Old 15-06-2010, 06:39 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

can you connect the red wire of the grey harness to J67as in the schematic above.

Richard
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Old 15-06-2010, 06:59 PM
Ilkka Ilkka is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
can you connect the red wire of the grey harness to J67as in the schematic above.

Richard
I will try that and report back.

Thanks!
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Old 15-06-2010, 07:51 PM
Ilkka Ilkka is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

OK, wired the red wire of the gray harness to J67.

Now the system won't start (gauge nor any leds on the main unit won't lit) until I start the car. The J67 won't have any voltage until the car is started, is this the reason?

Once the car is idling, the F-IDC led starts to flicker and the two other leds aren't active, just as it should be. With the threshold trimmer at the minimum, if I blip the throttle, the THRES led lits but nothing comes out of the nozzle. If I put a jumper to the SYS, the nozzle outputs a nice cone. So no change from what was noticed before.
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Old 15-06-2010, 08:02 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

Ok, we are getting there.

The reason for the full-on spray is because the (+) side of the fuel injector side is not powered up at the pre-crank position. By wiring the red wire from the grey harness to the fuekl injector (-) has sloved the "false start" probelm at the pre-crank position.


OK, the next problem...

Check the jumper "INJ" is linked and the gauge is switched on.
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Old 15-06-2010, 08:12 PM
Ilkka Ilkka is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
Ok, we are getting there.

The reason for the full-on spray is because the (+) side of the fuel injector side is not powered up at the pre-crank position.
But it was powered up before I moved the injector+ to J67. When powered from pin 60, pre-crank position gave 12 V.
Quote:
By wiring the red wire from the grey harness to the fuekl injector (-) has sloved the "false start" probelm at the pre-crank position.
So that was intentional and wanted?

Quote:
OK, the next problem...

Check the jumper "INJ" is linked and the gauge is switched on.
Both check.
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Old 15-06-2010, 08:25 PM
Ilkka Ilkka is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

This is only me but I'm suspecting that the 0.12V DC measured on the injector- at the pre-crank position fools the system to think that the IDC is 100%. That's why all three leds lit constantly. Could try a large capacitor (10000uF) in series with the injector- to block the DC.

But I don't understand why the system is not working when the car is started. Everything seems to be working ok but the nozzle doesn't output anything. Test with the SYS linked proves that both the pump and check valve are working.

Could it be that the output of the nozzle is so weak at low IDC that it isn't visible? I will take the car on the road tomorrow so that I can engage higher IDC.

Last edited by Ilkka; 15-06-2010 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 15-06-2010, 08:31 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

There is not reason why the system will not inject. Your reasoning for the injector at 0.12V is correct, so the H3 system thinks the injector is at 100% DC.

Most cars powers up the fuel injector at "pre-crank" position. Yours doesn't. Until of course after the engine has started.

Can you check all the jumper links are at the "default position" and the gauge is switched on.

Richard





There test pins
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  #10  
Old 15-06-2010, 08:40 PM
Ilkka Ilkka is offline
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Default Re: Strange setup problems

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L View Post
There is not reason why the system will not inject. Your reasoning for the injector at 0.12V is correct, so the H3 system thinks the injector is at 100% DC.

Most cars powers up the fuel injector at "pre-crank" position. Yours doesn't. Until of course after the engine has started.

Can you check all the jumper links are at the "default position" and the gauge is switched on.

Richard
I will put the injector+ wire back to pin 60 so that it will be powered at the pre-crank position. Then I will add a 10000uF capacitor in series with the injector- to block the DC.

Jumpers are at the "default position" and the gauge is switched on.
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