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  #1  
Old 02-04-2005, 05:45 PM
turbojack turbojack is offline
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Default Dodge SRT-4, HOM toys option, and WI injector placement

Hi everybody. I have been reading diff threads/posts on this forum for awhile but have never posted. I have been enjoying but not participating, this has changed since I think I have the components I need to start my project. I just need some educated advice and helpful comments that may be particular to my car, hence the post here.

I have a 04 Dodge SRT-4, the major things done to the car that are for engine performance are: Stage II with toys, a piggy back controller (SMT-6 based), upgraded exhaust and a Zeitronix wideband for double checking A/F ratios and EGT temp (EGT probe not hooked up yet).

With regards to the factory stage II upgrade with the toys option:
The toys option has a HOM switch (HOM =High Octane Mode) for running race gas. My best understanding of what this switch does, is allow increased timing when using race gas (higher knock threshold). However if the PCM sees knock that it thinks should not be there when HOM has been switched on, it overrides the switch and reverts back to non HOM mode (thinks that you do not have race gas in the tank and switches to back to base map), this is for the safety of the engine.

From what I?ve reading (correctly or incorrectly), WI if installed, setup correctly, and properly tuned may allow the use of the HOM switch without using race gas. Besides some of the other benefits of WI this is my main goal of using WI on this car.....if it can be done.

I have had the piggy back controller for awhile now and have always intended to use the piggy back and WI together. Right now the Piggy back is setup/tuned to make more power, keeping the A/F around 11.0 - 11.5 (no higher till EGT probe hooked up). Without the piggy back the factory tune was dumping fuel (around 9.00 -10.5 under full boost). Also, at this time the piggyback I?m using can not be used to advance timing only retard (see web link).

I recently purchased an Aquamist 2C system as the basis of my WI system. I was intending to install the Aquamist jet and HSV post intercooler but before throttle body in order to reach or meet my goal of using the HOM switch without buying race gas. However, If the car has a piggyback controller that can control a HSV (see web link), should I be looking more closely at injecting into the intake manifold (port injection)? What setup or placement of injector(s) do you think will help most in simulating race gas? If it applies, what WI mixture do you think will be needed for this? With regards to fluids, keep in mind the idea is a low cost replacement to race gas, I would like to keep things simple once setup, and not have to spend time on a weekly or monthly basis sourcing anything exotic or expensive (distilled water=less than $.99 per gallon).

Here?s a link to the piggyback I?m using from PSI-FI motor sports
http://www.psifimotorsports.com/ECU.htm

Here?s a link to a description of the stage II with toys from Mopar
http://www.mopar.com/srt_stage_2.htm

Here?s a link to the Zeitronix wideband
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm

Hers a link to my Exhaust upgrade from MaxFab and Mopar
http://www.maxxfab.com/welcome1.html1.html


If anybody has some comments or needs additional info or just wants to talk about what I?m proposing to do with WI on this car, please feel free to post.

Thanks
Jack
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  #2  
Old 02-04-2005, 08:22 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Jack,

Thanks for submitting your SRT for the discussion - hope it will bear fruit as more people may chime in and offer solution to get over some of ways to over come the rich a/f ratio being programmed at HOM. Does the HOM also runs rich?

The piggyback is one solution - not sure how it works to trim fuel etc. The most common method is to trim the MAF, TPS or MAP sensors. They will all have other side effects at WOT, since the ECU is not going to see full WOT voltage etc. Please outline your thoughts and how WI can replace the 10:1 afr.
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Old 03-04-2005, 09:52 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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I have read the Psi controller and assume the following:

1) You are trimming the fuel by modifing the load sensor
2) You will be creating a map for the WI to drive the 2C.
3) HOM will altomatically advance the ignition and boost on the stageII.
4) You are already running bigger injectors on stage II upgrade? (part of the kit)

I think your set up will work well with the 2c. I do have a question. Is the "map switch" on the Psi switchable on the fly if water injection is interrupted?
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Old 04-04-2005, 01:37 AM
turbojack turbojack is offline
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"Does the HOM also runs rich?"

Yes but it?s been awhile since I?ve used it (weather and road conditions not conducive to racing or high boost runs) and I do not remember the values displayed on the wideband controller when I was using it, sorry.

?The piggyback is one solution - not sure how it works to trim fuel etc. The most common method is to trim the MAF, TPS or MAP sensors. They will all have other side effects at WOT, since the ECU is not going to see full WOT voltage etc.?

The Piggy back that I?m using is just that, a piggy back it does not replace the PCM it alters some of the sensor signals being sent or read by the PCM. The web site I linked to doesn?t go into details on what it does exactly to ?trim fuel?. If I?m not mistaken it alters the MAP signal. But it does this ?map clamping? in 3D (RPM, LOAD, TPS) versus a specific voltage clamp at high boost levels.


"Please outline your thoughts and how WI can replace the 10:1 afr."

The factory is dumping excess fuel to keep combustion temps low, which helps with engine life or limits them (DCX) to being vulnerable to warranty claims due to engine damage. By taking away some of the excess fuel using the Power Paq my power goes up but so does the risk of doing damage (if I go too far). If I can replace some of the excess fuel with WI, and introduce it in the right amounts, at the right time, I think I can keep the power I have tuned into the system already and keep the intended safety net that the factory had tuned for but did by dumping fuel. IMO I should be able to tune more aggressively, by reducing fuel dumping even more (but using my head and not getting too greedy) by further tuning the map in the PowerPaq with a wideband and EGT readings.

With race gas and the HOM switch enabled the car does make more power (proven to me by seat of the pants feel, others have been to the dyno and have seen the effects in black and white). I hope to be able to use the effects of WI to reduce the knock threshold, again by introducing it in way to reduce knock. The factory PCM is looking to see higher expected knock values when HOM activated. If it does, it allows more timing (significant to making more power). If not it overrides the switch and reverts to the non HOM settings. If I can get the system setup and tuned properly I think I can get the car to run with a higher knock value as if race gas is being used. This will allow me to run the car with the HOM switch activated at will and without using expensive race gas.

Right now this may sound like I want to do two separate things with the WI, but I think it?s doable if I do it right and knowledgeable people help/guide me. At worst I think I can keep the current Power Paq map, and just attack the HOM problem without fear of doing damage since my Power Paq tune, IMO is conservative.

?1) You are trimming the fuel by modifying the load sensor?

See above, if still not clear I can send user manual

?2) You will be creating a map for the WI to drive the 2C.?

Yes, I will be using the Power Paq to drive the 2C HSV. I will have a map specifically for my default tune but with WI. This way if have WI problem I can revert back for safety.

?3) HOM will automatically advance the ignition and boost on the stage II.?

See above, I think it?s better said that, it will allow more timing if it sees expected increased knock threshold values. I don?t think the HOM switch activation effects boost control. However the PCM in stage II has been calibrated for increased boost when WOT.

?4) You are already running bigger injectors on stage II upgrade? (part of the kit)?

Yes the injectors are larger and I think the factory sizing was in anticipation of the next stage as well (stage III), since I have stage II w/the toys option, the stage III upgrade for me from Mopar would not include larger injectors.

?I think your set up will work well with the 2c. I do have a question. Is the "map switch" on the Psi switchable on the fly if water injection is interrupted??

Example to switch from map A to map B: you have to shut off, then have key on and then toggle the map switch from map A to map B. So no, you can not switch between maps on the fly or have the maps controlled/loaded by something like a low fluid signal or clogged injector warning.

F.Y.I. I'm going to let some other SRT-4 users (also WI enthusiast?s) know about this thread so as to check my statements for accuracy. And maybe join in with comments.
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Old 10-04-2005, 01:50 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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I took sometime to digest the information.

I can see that you have a few options to incorporate WI with certain degree of safety.

Option1:
System2c with a DDS2/3 flow sensor - as soon as water flow is detect, you should be able to use the output to switch a relay to enable the HOM switch (y ou may need to find out which wire from the HOM unit tell the ECU to switch MAP)

Option2:
System2c with a DDS3 flow sensor - as soon as water flow is detect, you should be able to use the output to switch a relay to connect the factory boost solenoid to work. If water is not redected within a set time by the DDS3 undwer boost conditions, the wastegate will remind at default boost.

Option3:
Upgrade the 2c to 2d and use the "fault output" to de/select the above options when "water fault" is detected.

If you pick a preferred option, I will make a wiring diagram for you.
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Old 13-04-2005, 01:48 AM
turbojack turbojack is offline
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I like option 1, looks and sounds simple but effective. HOM has two wires one is ground the other to the PCM (ECU). Also like the DDS3 but it's not ready yet, is it?

Also what do you think about injector placement? From what I understand, I want to mount it after the IC but before the thottlebody. What?s your opinion with this considering the WI to make the HOM option work without race gas? Should I look into placing 4 injectors into the intake manifold? Should I inject closer to the throttlebody, or closer to the exit side of the IC? Should I run a mix of methanol and water or just water?

A little off topic:
I mounted an RCI 1 Gal jr dragster fuel cell to a strut bar in my trunk for water supply. Should I mount the pump here (can easily mount it to the fuel cell bracket I made). Or should I mount the pump and other Aquamist components under the hood someplace, not much room under the hood with the factory air box? Also do I need or should I get an accumulator for my setup?

You would do a wiring diagram for me?I would like that?it would be of great help I?m sure, and I appreciate it?thanks very much for your help and feedback.
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Old 19-04-2005, 01:01 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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I am aware of your post but I am a bit tied up an dwill post the drawing a text very soon.
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Old 23-04-2005, 06:02 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard L
I am aware of your post but I am a bit tied up an dwill post the drawing a text very soon.
Here is the first attempt to link all the parts together. Ideally, the presence of water will trigger the HOM switch to tell the ECU to start the high octane map.

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Old 26-04-2005, 08:24 PM
Nolimits Nolimits is offline
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That is def a great diagram for us Richard, thanks for taking your time to write that. You even included the Turbo Toys!!! Nice! (You probably have alot of inside knowledge about it from working with MOPAR )
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Old 28-04-2005, 02:38 AM
turbojack turbojack is offline
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Thanks much for the work Richard.

I'm in NJ, any suppliers in the states have the DDS3 yet, big Mopar meet 14th of May, would like to have this and get it installed - tuned before then? Also would like to get the new injectors and adapters, more hose/line, fittings etc...

Again thanks for this, I'm dying to try it.
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