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  #11  
Old 26-10-2009, 10:12 PM
SteveR32GTR SteveR32GTR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnA
Remember that intake temps consistently below 20C at the throttle will rob you of power. If that is true under boost as well, then you're compromising the engine's efficiency.
interesting. is that 100% fact even with forced induction?

on various cars ive had i always fit the charge temp sensor at the throttle and the car seemed to go better the colder the temps were, even way below 20degC on some stupidly cold nights (and very good IC/WI setup, lol).

id almost be inclined to say thats true in n/a form where you havent got boost pressure messing with the fuel/air mix, but on turbo cars?
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  #12  
Old 25-02-2010, 07:59 PM
forcefed86 forcefed86 is offline
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Great thread! What are the size units for the nozzles being used?

LPH?
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  #13  
Old 25-02-2010, 11:41 PM
RICE RACING RICE RACING is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveR32GTR
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnA
Remember that intake temps consistently below 20C at the throttle will rob you of power. If that is true under boost as well, then you're compromising the engine's efficiency.
interesting. is that 100% fact even with forced induction?

on various cars ive had i always fit the charge temp sensor at the throttle and the car seemed to go better the colder the temps were, even way below 20degC on some stupidly cold nights (and very good IC/WI setup, lol).

id almost be inclined to say thats true in n/a form where you havent got boost pressure messing with the fuel/air mix, but on turbo cars?
Have to agree, I have never seen a car go worse with less than 20dec C IAT.

I have in my collection of reports on WI testing one specific one that compares 70 dec C, 37 deg C, and 10 deg C IAT at fixed AFR of 10.57:1 and 11.11:1 with water to fuel ratios of 0, 0.2, 0.4, and 0.6 by mass. The colder the IAT the more power the engine put out, the only time the output did not correlate was with richer mixtures & WI activated at higher ratio's all other cases engine power went up. Boost pressures tested were up to 22psi gauge and tuning to detonation limit via boost pressure increase only (not AFR or timing).
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  #14  
Old 09-03-2010, 04:07 AM
1995gsx20g 1995gsx20g is offline
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Default Re: Pre Turbo Injection - How Much and When to Inject

correct me if i am wrong but..
i feel the need for intakes for older mainly carbureted engines to be close to the exhaust manifolds was mainly due to issues with atomization during a cold motor while warming up.

but i also agree with the fact that intake temps below 20c does not hurt efficiency of the motor under boost because of the fact that the engine is already up to operating temps so even if the air is below 20c the engine will certainly will bring those temps up by the time the fuel is injected, post throttle body.
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  #15  
Old 22-05-2010, 04:06 AM
st165 st165 is offline
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Default Re: Pre Turbo Injection - How Much and When to Inject

Very interesting, but i don't understand something on the graph legend. where is the after WI temperature taken from?

Following your testing, would you say that twin 0.4 jet can replace an fmic if spraying from 4psi (0psi?)

Thank you
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  #16  
Old 05-07-2014, 07:54 PM
GOFAST GOFAST is offline
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Default Re: Pre Turbo Injection - How Much and When to Inject

is there anyone here that drives an daily car with pre turbo WMI ?
I consider using a single 0.6 nozzle.
and a lager one after de i.c.

how long did your turbo last ?

I drive at 29psi full boost (diesel) does that have any down sites to this story.
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  #17  
Old 23-11-2014, 12:25 AM
HYDE16 HYDE16 is offline
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Default Re: Pre Turbo Injection - How Much and When to Inject

I've read all 50 pages, legitimately, condensing the main points to determine my own post-MAF setup and testing.

I've read here that for pre-turbo jets which can only be installed further upstream (post-MAF) and not at the compressor based on OEM turbo housings should be installed to spray against the direction of oncoming air post MAF to atomize most effectively (basically spraying at the back of the MAF housings the incoming air breaks up the fluid better).

Based on my VW GTI's engine layout and more specifically the intake layout, I've been studying the air velocity within a 90 degree bend (the bend leading to the horizontal intake pipe running across the back of the engine (from the black MAF housing to the beginning of the long straight).

VW GTI Intake layout:


This video shows in yellow the highest velocity stream which would help atomize any water meth spraying inside of this intake pipe:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvprEu-yH-A

Based on the video example alone, should I install the jet at the top of the horizontal pipe to spray against (into) the yellow stream? Or at the bottom of the pipe to spray into (with) the yellow stream?

When people place jets within the intake tract, are they accounting for flow diagrams or streams?
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  #18  
Old 30-12-2015, 09:45 AM
rotrex rotrex is offline
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Default Re: Pre Turbo Injection - How Much and When to Inject

Having done some experiments with pre compressor injection last summer and fall, I can add a little to this.
Rotrex C30-94, jets tried: Aquamist 0.3 and 0.5mm. Mix 50:50 water methanol by weight.
IAT is measured after a water cooled charge cooler half way before entering the intake plenum. Throttle body is before the SC. Boost is 0.83 bar at 7000 rpm.
There is almost no influence on boost. At least nothing I can distinguish from effects of ambient temperatures. So all constant within a few percent.
The air temperatures drop as you increase jet size. Going from 0.3 to 0.5 mm introduced IAT fluctuation that got worse as ambient temps were lower. The sudden nature of those drops, you can see this effect also in the original data plots of this threat, can in my opinion be attributed to condensation in the charge cooler. The big droplets hits the IAT sensor, it has a little frame around it, evaporate and cool it down. Once the droplet is gone, it heat up to the air temp again. The fluctuations go worse as ambient temperatures dropped and as jet size increased. You feel the car modulate its acceleration as the ignition timing was advanced and pulled accelerating though a high gear due to the ignition air temperature corrections. The data logs show only some of the fluctuations, but not all of them compared to the felt fluctuations. The data rate recorded on the PC is too low.
To confirm, I removed the correction and the feelable effect was gone, but the log stills shows the fluctuations. On a 40C ambient day last summer, there were virtually no fluctuations a served with IATs as has 70C.

The observation of the original poster was that the throttle plate temp vs CC output temperatures dropped as flow increases. This is clearly a indication of evaporation.
At 50C turbo exit temperatures, much of the water and part of the methanol are likely still in the liquid phase, the charge cooler condenses the stuff further.
This big droplets collide with the wall at any bend or any obstacle, and cool is via evaporation. Unfortunalty, due to this effect, little of the spray arrives in the cylinder and mist.
During a rebuild with direct port jets on top of u-turn plenum runners. I could see the traces of the water stream on the front part of the combustion chamber and piston tops. These areas were light brown vs black.
Since moving the direct port jets on top of the plenum, but right behind the fuel injectors in the flat section, I needed to add more ignition advance. A clear sign that more mix effectively arrived in the combustion chamber as mist and not a fluid stream.

Once someone goes to significantly higher boost levels, the corresponding turbo exit temps of well above 100C or even 150C will evaporate much more fluid thrown at it. Riceracers setup is a good example. Condensation in the chagre cooler will still be present, but to a lesser degree.

Overall my little 0.3mm jet used now drops the IATs a tad, but the main work is done by now 4x 0.4mm c-type (150 ml/min) direct port jets.
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  #19  
Old 31-12-2015, 09:56 AM
parmas parmas is offline
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Default Re: Pre Turbo Injection - How Much and When to Inject

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotrex View Post
Having done some experiments with pre compressor injection last summer and fall, I can add a little to this.
Rotrex C30-94, jets tried: Aquamist 0.3 and 0.5mm. Mix 50:50 water methanol by weight.
IAT is measured after a water cooled charge cooler half way before entering the intake plenum. Throttle body is before the SC. Boost is 0.83 bar at 7000 rpm.
There is almost no influence on boost. At least nothing I can distinguish from effects of ambient temperatures. So all constant within a few percent.
The air temperatures drop as you increase jet size. Going from 0.3 to 0.5 mm introduced IAT fluctuation that got worse as ambient temps were lower. The sudden nature of those drops, you can see this effect also in the original data plots of this threat, can in my opinion be attributed to condensation in the charge cooler. The big droplets hits the IAT sensor, it has a little frame around it, evaporate and cool it down. Once the droplet is gone, it heat up to the air temp again. The fluctuations go worse as ambient temperatures dropped and as jet size increased. You feel the car modulate its acceleration as the ignition timing was advanced and pulled accelerating though a high gear due to the ignition air temperature corrections. The data logs show only some of the fluctuations, but not all of them compared to the felt fluctuations. The data rate recorded on the PC is too low.
To confirm, I removed the correction and the feelable effect was gone, but the log stills shows the fluctuations. On a 40C ambient day last summer, there were virtually no fluctuations a served with IATs as has 70C.

The observation of the original poster was that the throttle plate temp vs CC output temperatures dropped as flow increases. This is clearly a indication of evaporation.
At 50C turbo exit temperatures, much of the water and part of the methanol are likely still in the liquid phase, the charge cooler condenses the stuff further.
This big droplets collide with the wall at any bend or any obstacle, and cool is via evaporation. Unfortunalty, due to this effect, little of the spray arrives in the cylinder and mist.
During a rebuild with direct port jets on top of u-turn plenum runners. I could see the traces of the water stream on the front part of the combustion chamber and piston tops. These areas were light brown vs black.
Since moving the direct port jets on top of the plenum, but right behind the fuel injectors in the flat section, I needed to add more ignition advance. A clear sign that more mix effectively arrived in the combustion chamber as mist and not a fluid stream.

Once someone goes to significantly higher boost levels, the corresponding turbo exit temps of well above 100C or even 150C will evaporate much more fluid thrown at it. Riceracers setup is a good example. Condensation in the chagre cooler will still be present, but to a lesser degree.

Overall my little 0.3mm jet used now drops the IATs a tad, but the main work is done by now 4x 0.4mm c-type (150 ml/min) direct port jets.
Thanks for your info and detailed testing Rotrex.

My setup is currently running with 350cc PRE-Turbo jet and 350cc Post-Turbo jet without intercooler pushing 1.4Bar with a GT28 in a 1.5L engine.

Using 50/50 Water/Meth mix in an ambient temp of 20DegC injecting at 2psi gradually full injection 700cc at 10psi was able to get Maximum temps of High40DegC @ High6Krpm @ 1.4Bar (21psi) reducing drastically till 15DegC during engine braking.

From experience till now, the more fluid I feed it, the more ignition timing the engine wanted, the more power/torque accelaration it felt.

Currently using 4x330cc = 1320cc rated at 43.5psi.
Pressing 59psi Fuel Pressure @ 0psi = 384cc x 4 = 1536cc
Pressing 59psi Fuel Pressure + 21 Boost Presure = 448cc x 4 = 1792cc
Injector duty @ 21psi is about 65% = 1165cc

700cc Water_Meth (DIV by) 1165cc Fuel X (100%) = 60% = 6:10 Ratio Water/Meth - Fuel
Attached Images
File Type: jpg PRE-TURBO.jpg (136.9 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg PRE-TURBO 3.jpg (190.8 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg P5280005.jpg (142.4 KB, 10 views)
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2016, 02:46 AM
Flr Power Flr Power is offline
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Posts: 62
Default Re: Pre Turbo Injection - How Much and When to Inject

Quote:
Originally Posted by rotrex View Post
Having done some experiments with pre compressor injection last summer and fall, I can add a little to this.
Rotrex C30-94, jets tried: Aquamist 0.3 and 0.5mm. Mix 50:50 water methanol by weight.
IAT is measured after a water cooled charge cooler half way before entering the intake plenum. Throttle body is before the SC. Boost is 0.83 bar at 7000 rpm.
There is almost no influence on boost. At least nothing I can distinguish from effects of ambient temperatures. So all constant within a few percent.
The air temperatures drop as you increase jet size. Going from 0.3 to 0.5 mm introduced IAT fluctuation that got worse as ambient temps were lower. The sudden nature of those drops, you can see this effect also in the original data plots of this threat, can in my opinion be attributed to condensation in the charge cooler. The big droplets hits the IAT sensor, it has a little frame around it, evaporate and cool it down. Once the droplet is gone, it heat up to the air temp again. The fluctuations go worse as ambient temperatures dropped and as jet size increased. You feel the car modulate its acceleration as the ignition timing was advanced and pulled accelerating though a high gear due to the ignition air temperature corrections. The data logs show only some of the fluctuations, but not all of them compared to the felt fluctuations. The data rate recorded on the PC is too low.
To confirm, I removed the correction and the feelable effect was gone, but the log stills shows the fluctuations. On a 40C ambient day last summer, there were virtually no fluctuations a served with IATs as has 70C.

The observation of the original poster was that the throttle plate temp vs CC output temperatures dropped as flow increases. This is clearly a indication of evaporation.
At 50C turbo exit temperatures, much of the water and part of the methanol are likely still in the liquid phase, the charge cooler condenses the stuff further.
This big droplets collide with the wall at any bend or any obstacle, and cool is via evaporation. Unfortunately, due to this effect, little of the spray arrives in the cylinder and mist.
During a rebuild with direct port jets on top of u-turn plenum runners. I could see the traces of the water stream on the front part of the combustion chamber and piston tops. These areas were light brown vs black.
Since moving the direct port jets on top of the plenum, but right behind the fuel injectors in the flat section, I needed to add more ignition advance. A clear sign that more mix effectively arrived in the combustion chamber as mist and not a fluid stream.

Once someone goes to significantly higher boost levels, the corresponding turbo exit temps of well above 100C or even 150C will evaporate much more fluid thrown at it. Riceracers setup is a good example. Condensation in the charge cooler will still be present, but to a lesser degree.

Overall my little 0.3mm jet used now drops the IATs a tad, but the main work is done by now 4x 0.4mm c-type (150 ml/min) direct port jets.
You are running the perfect setup in my opinion. How much power is it making?
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