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Old 05-11-2014, 12:48 AM
rfinkle2 rfinkle2 is offline
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Default Using methanol as auxiliary fuel (and associated questions)

In the not so distant future, I plan on using the HFS-3 or HFS-4 for direct runner injection on my Mazdaspeed3 for many reasons, not the least of which is that there are no aftermarket injectors that are designed to keep up with increased fueling demands after modification.

Having experimented a bit and seeing the results of some logging, the idea that placing the nozzle as close to the combustion chamber allows for the most available combustible mixture has me wondering why in a more nuts and bolts way.

My questions is geared toward the overall idea of a closed system and what physical properties lend to the idea that if using methanol as an auxiliary fuel, it is best to inject as close to the throttle body as possible...

Ok, truth is, I'm not smart enough to know why this is a phenomenon chemically, but have seen recommendations from various reputable sources as well as logged evidence and could use some smartz.

Last edited by rfinkle2; 05-11-2014 at 12:54 AM.
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Old 05-11-2014, 01:12 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Using methanol as auxiliary fuel (and associated questions)

The E symbol such as E50, E85 i snot that different in M50 ... etc.
Using Methanol as an fuel additive or fuel supplement is perfect acceptable, just not as well known term in the general sense.

In your case, it is used as supplement to raise the limitation of the OE fuel delivery system. There are several ways you can achieving this:

- adding 5th fuel injector at the throttle.
- using a single large jet at the throttle with a methanol injection system
- using individual port injection to minimise uneven cylinder distribution from a large single jet at the throttle.

You need to consider the merits of each method. If you go for a port injection, great care must be taken to ensure risk of a partial blockage to each jet is kept to a minimum. Plenty of filtration along the delivery route.
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Old 05-11-2014, 03:52 PM
rfinkle2 rfinkle2 is offline
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Default Re: Using methanol as auxiliary fuel (and associated questions)

Richard,

Thank you for your time and reply.

Too much verbage on my part when what I really wanted to ask you is what is the technical basis for having the nozzles close to the combustion chamber when using meth injection as supplemental fuel?

There is an engineer on our forum who feels that, in what he states is a closed system, that nozzle placement should not matter in terms of proximity to the combustion chamber when your ultimate goal is to supplement needed fuel vs charge cooling.
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:47 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Using methanol as auxiliary fuel (and associated questions)

Simply put, nozzle at the runners are the most ideal for supplementing fuel, not so much induction cooling.

When the nozzle/nozzles are far away from the inlet manifold, there is a higher probability of uneven distribution to each cylinder. In order to minimise this effect, place it as far away from the throttle as possible. Extra evaporating time will yield smaller droplets (natural process of evaporation), resulting better cylinder distribution.

As far as the AFR is concerned it make little difference overall but you will get lean lambda readings due to some cylinders receiving less methanol. It doesn't mean the methanol is loosing combustion heat energy (btu). Don't get confused with latent heat energy (KJ/kg).
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:51 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Using methanol as auxiliary fuel (and associated questions)

I just read your forum discussion.

WOW... so much!

My assumption is the fluctuation of the AFR and power readings were skewed due to uneven methanol distributions to the cylinders. The distribution is greatly affected by the position of the jets. It is especially significant if methanol is injected in large quantities to supplement fuel.

The cylinder distribution vs jet position is frequently discussed in the BMW 335 N54 forums. The his engine has two lambda probes for each of the 3-bank cylinders. Logging the STFT (Short Term Fuel Trim) has highlighted the importance of the meth jet locations. They spray 100% methanol to supplement fuel.

Here is the long term consensus that all agreed:
(Initial discussion started just like your forum)

1. Close to the TB, large STFT deviations in the two banks
2. At the exit of the IC, the deviation is down to +/- 5%

The argument regarding the methanol trapped upstream of the TB is a valid argument but so does the charge air. Onset of methanol injection is normally under boost so the delay due to distance is minimal as air/methanol is travelling at supersonic speed towards the cylinders.

Since the discussion, 90% of the methanol tuned N54 have move their twin 1mm nozzles to the exit of the IC. No more discussion surfaced since.

I will try look for links to this STFT topic with logs.
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:05 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Using methanol as auxiliary fuel (and associated questions)

From E90post forum:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...n#post15463551

Bimmer boost forum:
http://www.bimmerboost.com/showthrea...ion#post499469

Good reading , particularly the effect of nozzle locations, logged.
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Old 19-11-2014, 09:44 PM
keithmac keithmac is offline
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Default Re: Using methanol as auxiliary fuel (and associated questions)

When I went heavy Methanol injection on my Mitsubishi GTO going into each port runner was the only option.

In my opinion if you are leaning on the injection as extra fuel you need to fit a port system (one jet per runner).
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