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  #11  
Old 13-05-2012, 01:49 PM
Dust Dust is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

Performance and towing go hand in hand I would say. The dynamic range of the FAV is what? PPS is 2X?. Giving the user the chance to activate a nozzle lower than they could with a PPS system (more injection, less fuel = economy), and being able to flow more up top than a PPS system with the same turn on, would be good for towing and performance.

Last edited by Dust; 13-05-2012 at 01:54 PM.
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  #12  
Old 14-05-2012, 10:20 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

The dynamic range of the FAV on all our HFS-xxx is over 10:1. If we extend the starting point at a lower duty cycle, is can be over 100:1.

A typical PPS system starts at 25% pump duty cycle and finishes at 100% DC. Below 25% DC, the pump may not start expecially the lines are pressurised.

1. The pressure change between those two points are 60psi to 250psi.
2. The flow change between those two points are 250cc to 500cc/min.

Therefore the dynamic rannge (DR) is x2 at best. The DR will reduce under the following conditions:

3. A check valve is added
4. Against boost pressure
5. The pump is unable to maintain the same pressure at higher flow demand.

Conclusion: At best, a PPS system will only attain a DR of 1 to 1.7x


I believe your comments made good sense, the PWM valve system is more suitable for the diesel than I first thought. Thank you for pointing that out.
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  #13  
Old 15-05-2012, 03:24 AM
Dust Dust is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

For those who want economy, reduce the IDC startup point, you have discussed it before for someone with a petrol with huge injectors. Allow fuel to be replaced at low load states. Since diesels have gotten more complicated, the ability to tune them like a gasser (i.e. ECU load based instead of pressure based from the IP) has become the norm, the tuning for a kit would need to be based on fuel flow, rather than pressure. The DR will allow this (low load states, low spray, with enough left over up top) to happen.

PPS systems get around the DR with multiple stages. But, a second stage adds $100 + on top of a kit ($20 nozzle, $10 holder, $55 solenoid, $25 hobbs switch, $5 Y-fitting, $1-3 hose). Add this price to the cost of a progressive kit ($360 for a DO kit), and the HFS-2 is right in line.

If you want to sell to the power hungry, it should be as simple as enlarging your intank fitting to a 3/8”, and running 10-12mm hose to the pump. I did this because of a weak pump, but as

Howerton
http://howertonengineering.com/2010/...-hfs-6-system/

Alkycontrol, You, Labonte, and others have said, bigger hose pre-pump allows for less stress on the pump at all rates. If they want to go real big, mass produce (maybe not mass produce, but allow the choice) for the two nozzle/valve kit like the above hyperlink shows.
Have you considered bigger jets? Like in the 10-14 gph/600-1000cc/min range? The real price of nozzles has gotten high in the last few years, with DO at $20 plus $8 holder, and Coolingmist at $37 for nozzle, and $14 for the two fittings. 6.7L diesel at 50-75+psi can drink A LOT of water. Buying different nozzles to figure out what is needed can be expensive. At a certain point the big boys go gear-driven
http://www.scheiddiesel.com/display_part/2782.php

but that is beyond your scope anyway.

Consider longevity. Some diesel drivers in the US will have the kit installed, and it will be on 80%+ percent of the time. Some will only use it for pulling or drag racing. I know of a member on another forum that has logged 200K miles in 2 years, killed a pump, melted two controllers, then built his own controller after modifying a snow controller with a ridiculous heatsink that still didn’t work. Your pump is designed to run all of the time, which will be nice, but what about the controller and the valve? Can it take 50% duty cycle for 4-6 hours constant?And finally, since this has become a novel rather than a post, don’t try to hype it up. Not that you have in the past, but… The numbers are in your favor. Data will sell the kit. Flow curves, cc/min comparisons at different load states, and pricing will sell the kit. Make sure they understand that they don’t need a $1000 Snow MPG-MAX with two nozzles because one nozzle with the AM kit can flow at 5-50 times the range of a PPS system. Start with the HFS-2, because you don't have a failsafe figured out.

As a side note, and something you should feel free to dismiss, is to consider NPT and English based fittings and hose. I know here in Japan, everything is metric, and I have to bring over English fittings if I want to change things, but I know that when looking for 1/4” to M5 fittings in the US to install on the used HSV I found, I had to spend quite a bit of time looking, and had to go to some sketchy place in an industrial park that purchased surplus fittings. I know that it will play with logistics for you, but for those who already have a US based PPS system, the main problem is that nothing we have can convert over. The pump is already NPT, and the 1/8 NPT fitting that you use for the nozzle holder is getting there. I have some 1/8 NPT to 6mm OD quick connects, but that is because I am here in Japan and can walk down the street.
Telling Americans to sell the kit they have and buy yours might be the smartest thing for them if all they have is an as purchased kit, but if they have picked up a lot of parts over the years, it will be difficult to get the money back for some of it. I have 10 nozzles from m0.5 up to m15 that I can convert to an aquamist kit if I want to, but some may not see it that way.

I’m convincing myself to buy a TDI in 10 months and do a PPS to PWM-V test. Will the HFS-2v2 be able to do most of what the HFS-4 can do?

Last edited by Dust; 15-05-2012 at 03:34 AM.
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  #14  
Old 15-05-2012, 09:47 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

DO two-stage kit @$460, only $35.00 below the HFS-2. Our kit compares favoritably in terms of dynamic range.

Based on the HFS-2, we just need to actively maintaining the line pressure by PWM'ing the pump, keeping the heat dissipation low. We might justy call it HFS-2D. I can also see the advantage of track fuel fuel instead of boost. Most modern diesel ramps into full boost at the slighest touch of throttle. So tracking boost is a non-starter.

NPT is imperial (inched), used main in imperial hose sizes such as 1/4", 5/32, etc. BSP is used widely for all metric hoses. So if Japan is Metric, BSP is common there?

I am not keen on NPT fitting because I cannot use o-ring seals at the mating surfaces. Using plumbers tape (PTFE) can cause all sort of clogging problem is a small piece of torn tape is allow to travel towards the valve or the jets. We use NPT on the jet adaptor for the ease of adjusting the depth or thin wall charge pipes.

The HFS-2/3 is due for a version upgrade, we can introduce these options if we decided to go into the diesel market. Alternatively we might just offer a brand new Diesel system with EGT probe. We now have a 1.2mm nozzle flowing ~650cc/min @150psi

With the modern diesel, we can easily alter the boost or reduce power by trimming fuel upon failsafe activation. One thing I do want to know badly, what is the most attractive feature a diesel drive want. It is quite easy to figure out what the turbo/gasoline drivers want.
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  #15  
Old 17-05-2012, 04:19 AM
Dust Dust is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

Went fishing...

http://www.competitiondiesel.com/for....php?p=1784970

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/sho....php?p=4574456
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  #16  
Old 18-05-2012, 05:39 AM
Dust Dust is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/....php?tid=15095

http://www.biofuelsforum.com/svo_use...d_cruiser.html

http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/...d.php?tid=5027

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...2391054691/p/8

Not that they would necessarily be buying from you, but how about a kit similar to the howertown motorcycle/PWI-2 called the WVO water meth kit. Seems to them the lower the pressure the better.
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  #17  
Old 18-05-2012, 01:36 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

Still reading through them. Good market research links. I wonder if there is any updates on those people since their posting few years ago.

It appears people are looking for a simple kit as lowest possible price. This market is largely comprised of kit cost vs mpg gain. I remember reading a post someone wanted a refund of a $100 WI system after 6 months because it did not made the claimed 7%+ mgp improvement. It only made 5%.

On the turbo/gasoline market, people are more incline to spend more money related to power gain. I need to think hard before going into this market. Very different to what we used to.

The PWI-2 will be out of their price range and a FAV is added.
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  #18  
Old 18-05-2012, 02:33 PM
Dust Dust is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

Those are not the passenger car market. There aren't alot of diesel cars in the US yet.

the big truck people are running as much fuel as possible, and need to drop the EGTs.

The veggie market is wants the cheapest possible, even washer fluid pump would be fine.

The passenger diesel will have to come from your side of the pond.

Watch this one I guess from your side

http://www.tdocuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=12276
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  #19  
Old 24-05-2012, 08:32 AM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

Looking at the market closer, there are well categories. I believe the only market our system fits in is the "passenger" type.

This is the market I have been working on. The more modern DI based diesel. Failsafe interface is very accessible. Within this market, There is a significant proportion of people, although small, wants more performance.
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  #20  
Old 18-02-2015, 09:07 PM
blue blue is offline
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Default Re: Why don't we see more PWMV kits on diesels

I would be interested in looking at kit for the new f56 mini sd 2.0ltr bmw engine
Not sure if jeff has considered the petrol one yet, but looking at the previous r53/56 kits/tanks he has already made I wouldn't be surprised if it's on his radar

To give this post some context Been running a hfs4 on my r53 for a few years so not coming to this cold,
but might be selling kit complete with the car, although I could transplant,
Will be looking for more performance, whilst keeping good mpg

The SD is on order so I don't know yet if the tank will transplant into the space in the trunk, will update shortly
Will start a new thread if it looks possible.
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Last edited by blue; 18-02-2015 at 09:12 PM.
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