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  #11  
Old 08-12-2004, 12:11 AM
masterp2 masterp2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tici
Stuart,
I don't know what the additional 100 mg/L oxygen will do, I bet nothing because in the air there is about 20% of this gas.
About 50'000 mg/sec of pure oxygen in my LS1 engine at WOT


Stefano
That's the perspective we needed. But wait, it may cool the seat back in the summer!
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  #12  
Old 08-12-2004, 12:58 AM
tici tici is offline
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Michael, you can also fill the tanks with beer and install a in-car-bar!
OK, not so much alcohol but still it will cool the engine enough

Stefano
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  #13  
Old 08-12-2004, 05:39 AM
gaiaresearch gaiaresearch is offline
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Default Superoxygenation

Guys, as Taz quoted me:

"Water injection displaces some oxygen volume in the intake charge. Dissolved superoxygenation fits oxygen in between the hydrogen and as such does not increase its resting volume, but contributes bonus oxygen to compensate for that displaced by the water and methanol. .......The stainless steel tanks and their contents are refrigerated to near freezing point (meth stops it from freezing), so I also get a really cold mist into the intake plenum."

I see several advantages from little intervention. We need water tanks anyway, so its not like its all superfluous.

If you are injecting from a warm or hot tank (eg windscreen washer tank), the water will also have given up some of its O2 (those bubbles leaving a pot of heating water). Similarly with air, which as it expands, contains less oxygen by volume.

If you are injecting 20% water to fuel, then 1/5 of the 20% of O2 in your induction is displaced. Superoxygenation can ensure that there is 10 X more O2 in that 1/5th displacement. Surely optimising these losses, with such a simple intervention is worth it. If your water is warm to hot, then this O2 gain increases proportionately.

Cooling and thereby optimising the intake charge is after all, one of the reasons that we are water injecting. Storing the water/methanol mix at freezing temps furthermore ensures that you will be getting a nice cooling ice-cold, rather than an aggravating warm to hot shower on a stinking hot summer day. I know which I would prefer to cool me down.

Yes, tank spraying is feasible, much like an agricultural sprayer, but I have found that the pressurised tank and pump work better, in that I have found it easier to regulate water pressure than oxygen pressure, but I am still experimenting and don't really want to reduce Richard's sale of those dinky pumps. Mmmmm, you are thinking "A quick visit to the patent office"! So much for my silly ideas.

Regards

Stuart
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  #14  
Old 08-12-2004, 06:46 AM
tici tici is offline
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Cp of water is 4.182 kJ/kg*K
Evaporating heat of water is 2'256 kJ/kg

Difference between a hot day (100F) to cooled water (40F) = 33K = 140 kJ/kg

94% of the cooling energy is because of evaporation
6% of the cooling is because of the cool water

does it really matter to use cold water?
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  #15  
Old 08-12-2004, 02:50 PM
masterp2 masterp2 is offline
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Default Re: Superoxygenation

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaiaresearch
Guys, as Taz quoted me:


If you are injecting 20% water to fuel, then 1/5 of the 20% of O2 in your induction is displaced. Superoxygenation can ensure that there is 10 X more O2 in that 1/5th displacement. Surely optimising these losses, with such a simple intervention is worth it. If your water is warm to hot, then this O2 gain increases proportionately.

Cooling and thereby optimising the intake charge is after all, one of the reasons that we are water injecting. Storing the water/methanol mix at freezing temps furthermore ensures that you will be getting a nice cooling ice-cold, rather than an aggravating warm to hot shower on a stinking hot summer day. I know which I would prefer to cool me down.


Stuart
Well, I am all for patent office worthy innovation. But you have a dead horse here. You have already been shown that 96% of the cooling comes from water (or whatever) evaporating. You can decrease this substantially if: you can cool your solution to -200C (in which case it is frozen) or pressurize it to 50 atm (see Darwin remark). You might get this figure down to 90%. But I doubt you will be able to run the headlights with the power left over from using your car as a generator plant for this project. What good is 10 extra HP, if you have to tap 25 HP off the alternator to make it?

The gift of water injection is that it uses solvents that are already in perfect state in our existing ambient atmospheric conditions. Potential energy for combustion when atomized. Want to make it better? Find a solvent, miscible in water, liquid state to a low temp, that has it's own vapor pressure, is mildly combustible and has a Latent heat of vaporation as good as water, with the same cost as water. THAT is worthy of patenting.
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  #16  
Old 08-12-2004, 07:21 PM
gaiaresearch gaiaresearch is offline
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Default Why not optimise?

Hello Guys

A few bracketed additive corrections to my last post:

"Surely optimising (efforts against) these losses, with such a simple intervention is worth it. If your water is (currently) warm to hot, then this O2 gain (via such intervention) increases proportionately.

The tanks, by the way, are pressurised 8-10bar. Below 3 bar, you start to lose dissolved oxgen to the reduced gas head above the water.

I am not good at math, but it would be an interesting exercise to calculate the combined O2 gain achieved by said intervention when applied to Hodrod's setup and estimated 50'000 mg/sec of pure oxygen . I would not write it off, even if the gain from just the superoxygenation, let alone the induction cooling/air-density factor (less work for the pump also means less heat to the systemic water) were calculated. Since water is H2O and can be increased to H2O10 then we get 90% more oxygen into that 1/5 water to fuel ratio.

The point you appear to be missing here is that I am all for water, the "universal solvent". Water, being H20, is 1/3 O2. We all want O2, so why not use O2 as the pressurising gas. Eventually, when I get the regulation sorted, I will replace the pumps as primary pressurisers, perhaps completely, or maybe use them as part of an on-board water superoxygenating system.

I don't accept the weak argument that cooling the water to freezing will have an insignificant cooling effect, My cold shower analogy applies, as would untold number of even more appropriate analogies.

Show me where I am doing anything that is a waste of time. Need tank, need water need oxygen, need cooling. Agreed?

Why not fill the tank with superoxygenated water and prior to use, store it in a freezer? Are you guys just being negative for the sake of it? Seems to me to be the case. I will do it this way simply because it involves nothing more than oxygenating and sticking it overnight in the freezer.


Regards

Stuart
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2004, 07:52 PM
tici tici is offline
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Why not use hydrogen peroxide?
This is a REAL source of oxygen.
Maybe a little dangerous... :roll:

10 bar? This is 145 PSI. Why still using a pump? The majority of the systems are between 100 and 200 PSI. I'm still playing with the idea of a tank-nopump-valve-nozzle-system. As I asked before: why not?

Stuart, I'n mot negative about your system, I'm just thinking at the whole thing. A car where I jump in in the morning, go to work, with a blower under the hood and evaporation cooling system.
Do I really have to carry a water tank from my freezer to the car in the morning, at the office put it in a second freezer and in the evening go home with the same tank?
Not really practical...

What should I do with the "additional" oxygen molecules? Add more fuel to adjust the AF-ratio?
How much power would this mean?

H2O10: I probably have to go back to my prof. and ask him why the hell have I learned chemistry during years and still don't know how this molecule look like...
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  #18  
Old 08-12-2004, 09:25 PM
masterp2 masterp2 is offline
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Stuart,

Nobody is being negative for the heck of it. Two degreed chemical engineers have now told you that the concept lacks reality. If I thought it was plausible you would have my ear. I'm just trying to be nice.


"Storing the water/methanol mix at freezing temps furthermore ensures that you will be getting a nice cooling ice-cold, rather than an aggravating warm to hot shower on a stinking hot summer day. I know which I would prefer to cool me down."

With this statement, you are showing that you don't have a grasp on the purpose of water injection, or evaporative cooling. Evaporative cooling is what happens after you get out of the shower (and why you quickly grab a towel on the cool dry days) If you truly want to cool off a 1200 F degree cylinder, how does a 30 degree shower water temp change help? Sure, it does fine on a 98 degree body, but if you really want to cool off, get out of the (hot) shower and jump in front of a fan (Oh, the image!). This is what happens in water injection! I guarantee, you will have the same chilling effect, hot or cold shower, once in front of the fan.

Water is not 33% 02. The oxygen in water is not available for combustion, until a force like lightning makes it available. O2 (gas)dissolved in water is, and then only when allowed out of solution (as an evolved gas, much like CO2 in the aforementioned beverage containers).

The numbers are not lying. And if I am off by only 1000%, it is still not a base hit. For the effort, use liquid oxygen (but you won't get me in the car)

But still, post your results, the father of the light bulb came under the same types of attitudes. There is nothing lost in failing, only learning experiences.
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  #19  
Old 08-12-2004, 10:03 PM
gaiaresearch gaiaresearch is offline
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Default Superoxygenated Water

Thanks for the input guys.

I work from home and take my S3 into the mountain passes once a week.

My butt dyno and my ear tells me that the car does not wane as quicky with the mix than without it.

I did not raise the posted topic. Someone pointed me to it and I confirmed that superoxygenation was possible. I have some downpipe restrictions to deal with early next year and then I will post comparative data, positive or negative, since I will not pursue something that I have determined to be useless.

Till then, I will enjoy following your really good technical discussions under other topics and post here anything that I think might be of interest and request that you do the same.

Regards

Stuart
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  #20  
Old 08-12-2004, 10:29 PM
tici tici is offline
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S3 = Audi S3 or Lotus Elise S3?
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