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  #21  
Old 08-12-2004, 10:39 PM
masterp2 masterp2 is offline
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Stuart

Another thing to remember, the colder it is, the slower it moves, especially true in nozzles. If, you can insulate every line, and get solution to the nozzle still cold, it will have greater viscosity, and atomization will be worse, and flow rate will be lower, assuming same pump pressure. (you can prove this in the shower as well)

My butt dyno doesn't work very well, usually more placebo going on in my head than anything, especially the harder I try to make something what it is not. Numbers don't lie though.
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  #22  
Old 09-12-2004, 01:54 AM
tici tici is offline
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Hot water would be even better: remember, it has to evaporate. This will be easier if water is already close to boil, much easier than if it was close to freeze. No risk of water droplets in the manifold.
And this is not BS!

My butt-o-meter is really sensitive to noise: the louder the stronger.
This maybe explains because everyone is buying cat-back's thinking it will bring power.
I reinstalled the Stock exhaust 3 weeks ago and I'm happy! I had an extremely noisy Corsa: cool the 1st week but a real pain during long trips. I installed tar plates and a special noise dampening foam in the whole car and it was still too loud.
...headers are still there... they do make the difference
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  #23  
Old 11-12-2004, 09:12 PM
gaiaresearch gaiaresearch is offline
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Default Duh!

Actually, you guys are, for the most part, full of crap!

Quote (masterp2): "you don't have a grasp on the purpose of water injection....If you truly want to cool off a 1200 F degree cylinder, how does a 30 degree shower water temp change help? Sure, it does fine on a 98 degree body, but if you really want to cool off, get out of the (hot) shower and jump in front of a fan (Oh, the image!). This is what happens in water injection!."

ST: Man we are injecting for two reasons, but you only focus on one. Temps going to my throttle-body are down from around 150 to around 50 degrees Centigrade after misting the intercoolers. Misting ice-cold water at the throttle-body drops this and slows its rise, increasing the density of the charge and hence the concentration of oxygen. That's the first reason. We agree on the second.

Quote (masterp2): "The oxygen in water is not available for combustion, until a force like lightning makes it available. O2 (gas)dissolved in water is, and then only when allowed out of solution."

ST: I disagree. Firstly, the O2 comprising water will evolve to a gas in the combustion chamber and second, all of the 10 times extra oxygen in superoxygenated water is 'dissolved' and will evolve on entering the combustion chamber, if not earlier in the plenum and runners, which is all the more reason to chill the water and delay the evolution of O2 until it enters the combustion chamber,which will optimise the density of the charge and the concentration of O2 for catalysis.

I have 6 temp probes and a digital reader in my induction system, a digital EGT and digital broad-band A/F Ratio readers and I will very carefully gather the data, since the last person I want to kid is myself. I don't expect my interventions to profoundly improve matters over a short operational time-frame, but I do anticipate worthwhile improvements under longer WOT conditions, which is where it matters most and gains significance.

Thanks again for the input.

Regards

Stuart
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  #24  
Old 11-12-2004, 09:21 PM
gaiaresearch gaiaresearch is offline
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Default Again

Quote (masterp2): "the colder it is, the slower it moves, especially true in nozzles. If, you can insulate every line, and get solution to the nozzle still cold, it will have greater viscosity, and atomization will be worse, and flow rate will be lower, assuming same pump pressure."

ST: Duh! It's injecting in the engine bay, not a bloody refrigerator.

Quote (masterp2): "usually more placebo going on in my head than anything".

ST: Agreed.

Quote (tici): "Hot water would be even better: remember, it has to evaporate. This will be easier if water is already close to boil, much easier than if it was close to freeze. No risk of water droplets in the manifold".

ST: Duh! I repeat. It's injecting in the engine bay, not a bloody refrigerator.

Quote (tici): "My butt-o-meter is really sensitive to noise: the louder the stronger."

ST: Again. Agreed.


Regards

Stuart
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  #25  
Old 11-12-2004, 09:29 PM
masterp2 masterp2 is offline
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There it is folks, the last word. Just one recommendation...high school chemistry.

"Quote (masterp2): "The oxygen in water is not available for combustion, until a force like lightning makes it available. O2 (gas)dissolved in water is, and then only when allowed out of solution."

ST: I disagree. Firstly, the O2 comprising water will evolve to a gas in the combustion chamber and second, all of the 10 times extra oxygen in superoxygenated water is 'dissolved' and will evolve on entering the combustion chamber"


If you can extract oxygen gas from H2O, with less than a 100,000 V charge, you can retire a very rich man and save the environment, and save a lot of NASA's present day problems! You'd be my hero. Liquid water evolves into gaseous water Mr Rocket Scientist :idea: , not oxygen and hydrogen gas. You really need a rag stuffed in your mouth. ops: BTW, 10 times .01%, is .1%!!!, like the song goes "nothing from nothing leaves nothing". I'm sure you would also disagree when I state: that the lower the temp of your water, the lower it's dissolved capacity for O2, or any gas.

:?: I don't know why you decided to make this so personal, I just know I have no desire to be your audience, ignorance is not for me. If you can't carry a little dignity, lecture at the dog pound...
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  #26  
Old 11-12-2004, 11:09 PM
masterp2 masterp2 is offline
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Default Re: Why not optimise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaiaresearch
Hello Guys

Since water is H2O and can be increased to H2O10 then we get 90% more oxygen into that 1/5 water to fuel ratio.

The point you appear to be missing here is that I am all for water, the "universal solvent". Water, being H20, is 1/3 O2.
The "new" chemistry, "water... is 1/3 O2". :shock: WOW. (poking fun LOL-technically water is 1/6 O2 :lol: ) (what is H2010? they never covered that! :roll: )
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  #27  
Old 12-12-2004, 03:55 PM
gaiaresearch gaiaresearch is offline
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Default Duh, duh, duh!

master2p

Reverend chemistry guru, two things to clarify.

1) I did not come onto this forum proclaiming a breakthrough of the decade for the internal combustion engine, or any engine for that matter, nor even any breakthrough at all. I merely responded to Hotrod's remark in response to Taz's request for you guy's opinion on my post on the Vortex as follows:

"What makes my setup of possible interest is that I am injecting superoxygenated water/methanol just before the throttle body. The reason for oxygenated water - 2-10 times the dissolved oxygen content of regular water - is that water injection displaces some oxygen volume in the intake charge. Dissolved superoxygenation fits oxygen in between the hydrogen and as such does not increase its resting volume, but contributes bonus oxygen to compensate for that displaced by the water and methanol."

Richard expressed his opinion that: "This should work very well.The combination of added oxygen and super-cooler mixture will improve your power significantly."

Hotrod opinioned that: "The chilled water makes sense.........but I don't buy his "science" about super oxygenation --- smacks of marketing hype to me."

So far so good. To respond to doubts about the "science about super-oxygenation", I provided a link to one of the contemporary pioneers in my field. No comment from the critics, just snide remarks, jokes and petty negativity at every turn thereafter on not being able to cope with science outside of the syllabus, though my pressurised tank hinted at some potetial within the paradigm.

All I was attempting to do was to reintroduce the oxygen displaced by the volume of water and methanol being injected and drop some of the intake charge heat in the process. For some, this is just too much effort, or impossible, neither of which I agree with, given that I am attempting to optimise the output of my standard turbo system, rather than counting minor peturbations in a tsunami, as with you big turbo-chargers and superchargers, within which context, you might be right about the relevance of the gains.

2) Now to your last remarks.

Quote (master2p): "If you can extract oxygen gas from H2O, with less than a 100,000 V charge, you can retire a very rich man and save the environment, and save a lot of NASA's present day problems! You'd be my hero. Liquid water evolves into gaseous water Mr Rocket Scientist, not oxygen and hydrogen gas."

ST: Just a minute. I did NOT say that the O2 comprising the water would evolve to a gas in the combustion chamber and participate in catalysis, that honour fell to the dissolved oxygen, ie that over and above the 7mg/L which comprised the H2O which was super-oxygenated. Frankly, I don't know exactly what the fate of the O2 of the water itself would be, but that of the dissolved O2 is pretty clearly evolved as O2 gas, as from whence it came. Studies of the combustion of the hydrogen/oxygen bonds of H2O2 might throw more light on that situation,which would certainly involve reactive oxygen species with multiple, both welcome and unwelcome fates under various conditions.

Finally, you are probably correct to ask what H2O10 is, since it obviously isn't correct to depict the oxygen as bonded, when it is just filling the cavities between the bonded molecules, so I apologise for your wasting a few keystrokes on my behalf on that score. Nevertheless, it is rather immature to make fun of that which you do not understand, for mere want of a better informed response.

Peace

Stuart
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  #28  
Old 12-12-2004, 08:05 PM
Richard L Richard L is offline
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I like to clear up a few confusion here and hope the discussion will continue in a more constructive vein.

Stuart first came to the thread on my request, just to help to clarify his aim for the "oxygenated water". From looking at the first picture posted of the elaborate set up on this thread I have to ask Stuart to be here to explain it before people getting the wrong idea and escalating negative comments down the line.

Dissolving gas into water under pressure and low temperature is a common method of making fizzy drinks. Stuart use the same method to add oxygen into water, nothing new and doesn't require a rocket scientist to understand his intention.

I think the confusion started when the discussion was turning away from his intended aim and somwhow got into splitting the water molecules into oxygen and hydrogen. Injecting ice cold water and a fair amount of dessolved oxgen is a good power enhancing move.

Imagine pouring a can of cold fizzy drink into a warm glass, the release of carbon dioxide is instant. I think the same will happen when the hot charge meets the oxygenated water, instant release of oxygen. I am only guessing here but it is logical enough for me to assume that.

Water evaporate at any temperature above freezing point - the rate of evaporation is subject to the surface area. I will try to explain, liquid water molecules are held together by a force called van der Walls force, if sufficient energy is applied, the molecules expand and some will break away from this bond, it is commonly known as evaporation.

This process often happens on the surface of the water puddle as the force is less strong due less exposure to other surrounding molecules. In order to accelerate the vapourating process, you need greater surface areas. This is why atomised water has more heat absorbing effect. Regardless of the inertial temperature of the water. The colder the water temperature the more heat it will aborb. Introducing steam into the inlet tract has virtually no cooling effects.

Some systems such as oxygen/hydrogen fuelcell requires humidified air to be efficient, water is often heated to allow faster evaporation and cooling the air is not important. Ice water has greater cooling properties than hot water provided the droplet size is the same.

I think all contributors on this thread are correct in its own right but unfortunately not all were discussing the same topics. I think this discussion is getting too detailed and require more concise and careful reading into the poster's statement before posting comments.
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  #29  
Old 12-12-2004, 08:21 PM
hotrod hotrod is offline
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Default real numbers

Leaving aside all the other issues lets look at the real world numbers.
people sometimes forget just how small milligrams/liter is.

Assuming you are achieving the 80 milligram / liter of disolved oxygen mentioned in that paper (which is the upper limit claimed).

You have a 400 hp engine, and you run the 1/4 mile in 13 seconds flat. You are injecting pure superoxygenated water at a rate of 500 cc/min.

Your engine will process a maximum of 42 lbs/min of air as it moves down the 1/4 mile. In the 13 seconds of the run that comes out to 42 x .02316 = 9.7272 lb O2, or 4416.1488 grams of O2.

===============
Correction in the above I forgot to reduce the air flow to the fraction consumed in 13 seconds as stated. Formula should have been:


42 lb air / min x .02316 lb O2/lb air = 9.7272 lb O2/min. 13 seconds of consumtion at this rate equals ( 13/60 ) x 9.7272 lb O2/ min = 2.10756 lb O2/ run , or 956.83224 grams of O2.

======================

Meanwhile your WI is injecting 500 cc of water / min or 108.33 cc of water. This equals 0.10833 Liters, at 80 mg/liter you have added 8.666 mg of additional oxygen to the 4416.1488 that is in the air.

======================
Correction the above should read

Meanwhile your WI is injecting 500 cc of water / min or 108.33 cc of water. This equals 0.10833 Liters, at 80 mg/liter you have added 8.666 mg of additional oxygen to the 956.83224 that is in the air.



You have increased the engines oxygen intake by 0.0001962 %.

============
The above should read:


(956.83224 + .008666)/956.83224 = 956.840906/956.83224 = 1.000009057 or 0.000957 %

You have increased the engines oxygen intake by 0.000957 %.

400 hp x .000009057 = 0.003622788 hp


===============

Since one cubic foot of air holds about 0.016212 lb of O2, or 0.000009382 lb/ cubic inch or .0042594 gm of O2 per cubic inch, your additional .008666 gram of dissolved O2 is approximately equal to the oxygen contained in one half of a cubic inch of air.

===============

The above should be corrected to:

Since one cubic foot of air holds about 0.016212 lb of O2, or 7.360248 gm / cubic ft or 0.004259403 gm/ cubic inch , your additional .008666 gram of dissolved O2 is approximately equal to the oxygen contained in 2.03 cubic inches of air.

================

And that is a best case scenario.


I think I'll just stick with plain cold water and not worry about dissolved oxygen content.

Larry
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  #30  
Old 12-12-2004, 08:52 PM
masterp2 masterp2 is offline
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Default Re: Duh, duh, duh!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gaiaresearch
master2p

Frankly, I don't know exactly what the fate of the O2 of the water itself would be, but that of the dissolved O2 is pretty clearly evolved as O2 gas, as from whence it came. Studies of the combustion of the hydrogen/oxygen bonds of H2O2 might throw more light on that situation,which would certainly involve reactive oxygen species with multiple, both welcome and unwelcome fates under various conditions.
See, this is EXACTLY what I am taking about.

There IS NO O2 in WATER, AGUA, H2O!!!!!!! Only GOD has the patent to dissociate elemental oxygen from water. O2, oxygen gas, 21% of the air you breath, comes from PLANTS and "O2" is not shorthand for elemental oxygen.This has already been said several times, but it is not getting understood... Time I let it go.

H2O2 is hydrogen peroxide, from first aid kits, etc. What are we taliking about NOW???????

Richard

"Injecting ice cold water and a fair amount of dessolved oxgen is a good power enhancing move is sound."

A vehicle consumes a roomful of air per minute, WOT, 20% of that is Oxygen gas, roundabout 20 pounds, of O2 gas, per minute. I only need a 10% improvement in this to consider it significant improvement. I'm not as picky as a lot of people. I'd say that scrubbing 10% of the nitrogen from the air would be more possible. But let's play.

First you need a source of 100% O2, (not air) and then the equipment to compress it, what, 100 times to force it between the water molecular structure, maybe some paint can agitator to make it go faster, and what do we come up with? If it's not 2 pounds of 02 upon release (per minute) then I'm thinking "why did I need to add an electrical circuit to my house to power all this equipment". And by all the physical realities, it's less than 1/10,000 of this.

My take is this: Your chances of killing yourself due to the danger of the processes involved, are better than realizing a measurable improvement in performance due to oxygen content.

As far as being colder. Sure make it 0 C. It doesn't matter. What matters is whether water's specific heat can make a conductive contribution to air cooling, is whether or not it makes it into the charge airstream at that temp. My engine compartment runs around 60 C when heatquenched. Good luck keeping water cold while running through lines at 7 feet per second. A 150 psi pump, by itself raises the water temp 10-20 degrees if I recall.
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