How much power should i be making once meth injected??

[The Godfather]

Im considering running water/meth injection and have been reading for a few weeks now on some of the benefits but am yet to read on power gains with different ratios.

a quick run down on my car and mods:
its a gsr/evo 3 mitsubishi

2.0L 4g63 fully forged internals, 8.3:1 comp ratio wiseco pistons, eagle rods, cometic 1.2mm head gasket, etc etc
GT35R turbo with .70 front 1.06 rear!
280 cams intake and exhaust
Hypertune intake manifold and throttle body
walbro internal and bosch 044 external with surge tank
750cc injectors
haltech E8 ecu
3inch exhaust

putting out around 270kw or 365hp at the wheels. @ around 7800rpm and roughly 20psi

just wanting to know how much power can be made on top with either 50/50 water/meth and other ratios. 40/60 20/80 etc obviously no one can give me an exact figure but a rough idea would be great. Car can be revved to 9000rpm reliably and can run about 24psi all day every day on pump fuel.

any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Richard L]

Since the engine is quite happy on pump fuel at 24psi, therewillbe more scope on addding water amd methanol:

Something to try before pushing forward:

100% water..... run 10-15% of water to fuel (300cc to 450cc/min)
M50:W50 ....... 15-20% to fuel (450-600cc/min)
M100% ....... 20-25% to fuel: 600cc to 750cc/min

If your ignition sysrem can endure these ratio withotu blow-out, then proceed to do some serious tuning on leaning fuel and advancing igniton timing towards MBT.

[The Godfather]

Thanks for the reply Richard,

whats a rough % of power gains i should see at these suggested ratios:

100% water..... run 10-15% of water to fuel (300cc to 450cc/min)
M50:W50 ....... 15-20% to fuel (450-600cc/min)
M100% ....... 20-25% to fuel: 600cc to 750cc/min

also i dont fully understand what you mean by the cc/min

for ignition im running 4 x LS1 coils which are good for 1000hp.

[Richard L]

- Those quoted ratio does not make power until it is tuned. Power increase will depends on how aggressive the tune is.

- cc/min is the amount of liquid injected into the engine in one minute.

- I thinik you can jam in a lot more injectant into your engine later.

[RICE RACING]

I am not an expert as I am still learning this myself but would offer you this advise based off my own experience.

IF the car can take your regular petrol and the tuning is considered acceptable (say not too rich or retarded, and its adequately intercooled *~45deg C charge temp @ full power*) then I would say to you that you will always loose or retain very similar power by the addition of (water, water methanol, or methanol alone) *meth alone has potential to increase power due to latent cooling effect and the fact its the easiest to ignite*.

Keeping major variable like boost pressure constant....You will only make gains thus if your:

*AFR is set too rich
*Air temp is higher than acceptable
*Timing is retarded too much

As Richard I think said, when your Ignition system settings (voltage, current, spark gap, plugs used etc) are capable to ignite the WI mixtures you will typically see gains in power once fuel mixture is optimized, air temperature stabilized & timing added. Obviously the biggest variable is BOOST PRESSURE and the addition of correct levels of WI (again ref Richards notes) will open up a new world of power based on this.

How much extra power???? (Great question)

Its relative to what you can ignite (see ignition tips)
In my own tests 50/50 by mass of water to methanol works well but you can still have too much of this (each car is different! and needs to be tested properly on road and measure the gains) in my own case I needed to use the correct AFR, right mixture, and tuned flow rate to give 21% gains on power with only 8% of this increase given by boost increase alone (SQRT(higherboost/lowerboost). So the Water/Methanol mixture for me to get it to work right needed much individual experimentation to get the best result possible.

What is the practical limit? only you can find out in your own case, if you look towards others tests (very detailed) with a magneto based ignition system you can/could replicate their results I am sure and expect gains of 50%+ more power ***Assuming your turbocharger can deliver the required flow and the higher boost pressures it will allow you to run***

Hope this covers it for you.? (with fine tuning and being realistic I say 10%+ power is achievable)

[The Godfather]

yeah i gathered that i wont see power gains without tuning, i plan on getting it tuned right once installed,

im just after a rough idea on how much there is to gain, power wise...

100% water..... run 10-15% of water to fuel - with more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 10% increase in power? 15hp?

M50:W50 ....... 15-20% to fuelwith more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 20% increase? 30hp???

M100% ....... 20-25% to fuelwith more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 20-80% is that possible?

[The Godfather]

my a/f ratios are about 11.5 on full boost. so im guessing it can be leaned out a fair bit..??

[RICE RACING]

Originally Posted by The Godfather

yeah i gathered that i wont see power gains without tuning, i plan on getting it tuned right once installed,

im just after a rough idea on how much there is to gain, power wise...

100% water..... run 10-15% of water to fuel - with more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 10% increase in power? 15hp?

M50:W50 ....... 15-20% to fuelwith more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 20% increase? 30hp???

M100% ....... 20-25% to fuelwith more timing and 24psi @9000rpm?? 20-80% is that possible?

No.

If you are retain boost as is you will see single digit gains in percentage terms compared to what you have now.

Water = power loss (in my experience of your engine type) as it will be set pretty efficiently now on petrol at that power level)

Water/Meth = power the same or you will get gains if you lean it off and increase the timing (struggle to get more than 5%)

Methanol only = power gain, through cooling effect of methanol and its ease to burn, totally in relation to how much you inject! the more you put in to replace the main fuel supply the more it will cool and higher octane, max benefit at higher ratios would yield maybe up to 10% more power

*All of this is keep your original 24psi boost pressure*

[The Godfather]

hmmm thats what i didnt want to hear

its easily $1000 outlay for a meth system then add installation and tuning and it could be upto $1500-$2000? for that money i can get a lot more than 10% increase in power.

thats the main thing im trying to find out if its a viable option..

the options are for me to get a bigger wastegate to run slightly more boost as with my 38mm tial im limited to 23-24psi as it wont hold 27ish psi as it hits boost cut cause it cant get rid of excess boost quick enough.

other options are c16 and nos, c16 is cheap outlay but costs a lot to keep running, and nos im just not sure about but i do have a brand new kit sitting here screaming to be put in.

last option was meth injection but with only 10% gain to be had it isnt really worth it...

[RICE RACING]

I was going to say that sounds like an Australian set up, reading the 270awkw and parts list..... then I looked at your location lol!

To give you an idea I make 273rwkw (VBOX power measure) = about 305rwkw on homo dynamics machine. Using 16.9psi boost @ 6700rpm, T04Z, 13B-REW motor, W/M injection, full road legal exhaust with catalytic converter fitted and plumb back waste gate. 11.3:1 AFR.